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You are right...but if there is an inexpensive novelty that meets my requirements, I will buy it.
Originally Posted by Gabor
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12-22-2022 07:34 AM
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Just for fun, a few years back I got an old Roland M-OC1 Orchestra module (from 1995). I already had an original Sonus converter (guitar to midi) that worked with the sounds in other's electronic keyboards, but getting the M-OC1 gave me independence through my own amp.
The Sonus device detects only one note at a time, which is fine. I use these sometimes just to practice and explore. When the guitar can sound like a flute, clarinet, trumpet, etc., it encourages changes in the way you construct lines and phrases. The implementation of the trumpet sounds is very good; I can spend hours enjoying that.
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I guess this will rain on your parade, but I think the main problem with guitar as a source for MIDI data is the imprecision of the pitch information, and the time it takes the conversion mechanism to convert from the somewhat imprecise pitch generated by the guitar into the quantized numbers used by MIDI. Originally Posted by henryrobinett
So it seems to me that a keyboard controller is much better suited to controlling a MIDI sound-production function than is a guitar string. Since the keys operate switches, which are already mapped to MIDI pitch numbers, no pitch sensing or disambiguating is necessary. For example (and simplifying), when you press a particular key on a MIDI keyboard, MIDI pitch number 70 is sent to the MIDI application where it generates Bb above middle C if the MIDI application has been set to do that. On a guitar, a pitch detector has to sense what frequency was generated by energizing the string, disambiguate all the various pitches being generated by a string in motion, decide which pitch is intended, then convert the pitch information to a MIDI note number. Complicated. But you probably know all this.
My point is that a keyboard controller, or even a MIDI wind instrument whose keys also activate switches, is a much more direct way to generate that MIDI information than is the conversion of a pitch played on a guitar. If your goal is not in, as you wrote, "playing it like a guitar", then why impose all those complications onto the MIDI pitch selection?
Maybe a better path to what you want to accomplish is to use a MIDI keyboard controller or MIDI wind instrument to control the MIDI software you're trying to control.
Perhaps you have a solid reason for wanting to use a guitar as your pitch-selection function; but doing that adds a lot of complication to the process.
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No disrespect intended, but there’s one solid reason that most guitar players want to use a guitar - they don’t know how to play any other instrument well enough to make the music they want to make. Learning to play a new instrument well enough to lay down backing tracks or perform live on it adds even more complication to the process than the imperceptible delay in a MIDI guitar with transducers in the bridge saddles played through a current generation synth with enough processing power and memory. Originally Posted by dconeill
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No disrespect taken. But I have a hard time imagining that Henry Robinett doesn't know his way around a keyboard well enough to use it in a studio context. But I don't really know, I'm just making a leap of faith. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Maybe he's got some other, unstated, reason for wanting to use a guitar as a MIDI interface.
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I use a Frameworks guitar with a very good RMC pick up saddles with midi.
I sometimes record a midi track through the Boss RP-10.
However, delay is noticeable.
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To: OP
From my experience ...
Entering specific MIDI data into sequencer is not what these things are designed to do.
They are conceived as devices for playing live.
Of course, output can be recorded as MIDI, it is main additional feature, but recording can not be really treated as usual MIDI track (the way I usually use and treat MIDI tracks) - nice and clean, ready for editing and stuff. It is more like re-amping. What was played live is what you get. You can change sound/ patch, retune ... such stuff, but it is not that easy to edit individual notes and nuances.
The reason being, (my) guitar playing is interpreted by MIDI in the most peculiar ways.
For example, I play a chord, containing note E fretted on 2nd string 5th fret, lasting for 2 beats. In MIDI track it can be recorded as Eb with half step bend up lasting for a beat and a half, then for last half beat it changes to D with full step bend up. Such stuff. Then there are piles of ghost notes, vibratos, portamentos ... and what not, all there to make MIDI interpretation sound more true to live input (interpreting different mutes, pinches, micro slides ...). That job is done pretty good, but it spoils (my) usual use of MIDI track.
Of course, I can turn off tracking of all parameters but basic notes (I often do), but then I have to play it like completely different instrument. Everything ultra clean and precise. Otherwise, if I play guitar in my usual guitar playing way, MIDI recording will sound completely different on playback.
Regarding delays:
Last edited by Vladan; 12-27-2022 at 08:21 AM.
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hold your breathe and watch this..avoid 1st video...2nd one.....Jam Origin – Audio to MIDI
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Jam Origin Midi Guitar 2 do not need specific hardware : you plug your guitar in the audio interface as usual. It is polyphonic. There are sounds built in, but it also can play your vsti.There is a trial version on the site.
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Yes, of course to all of it. Obviously so. I've been aware of all if this. That's why I'm fine with a guitar controller that has sensors on the frets. Like a keyboard. All I need is to quickly input note data, not bends, or slides and hammer-ons/pull offs. I just need something that's simple. The reason is I have a pretty fancy studio and I produce. It slows me to no end to slow the track down in play keyboards for strings, orchestral stuff. I'm not interested in PLAYING GUITAR through midi for performance. I play guitar for that. It's merely for production purposes. Originally Posted by dconeill
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I’m pretty sure the GR55 requires a GK pickup. If you use the shunt connector that comes with it to connect the standard guitar output jack to the pickup control box, you can separate the guitar’s signal from the synth output using the guitar out jack on the GR55. But I don’t know of a way to drive the GR55 with a standard guitar pickup. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
At least there are now generic 13 pin cables. When I got my first XV2020 and wanted a few spare cables, only Roland’s were available, and a 10 footer cost about 10 times more than an average 10’ guitar cable.
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Yes works great..low Latency...sounds Superb playing with band in a box solos..just need to be accurate when playing and adjust to the genre..switch from poly to mono...works with VSTS too...Jam Origin Midi Guitar 2 do not need specific hardware : you plug your guitar in the audio interface as usual. It is polyphonic. There are sounds built in, but it also can play your vsti.There is a trial version on the site.
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I think I'm going to give the jamstick studio and try. Or the more expensive ZTar.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Yes, you need the GK pickup to drive the GR-55. The standard guitar cable plugs into the GK pickup, bit not directly into the GR-55.
At least I don't see any way to connect a standard guitar cable directly into the GR-55 on their website.
A direct connect option could be useful, though, for some scenarios.
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The standard cable plugs into the GK, but it's only a pass-through. I've used my Roland systems with a separate guitar cable to one amp and the stereo output from the GR to either the house system or a second amplification system on stage. The major problem with that for live performance is that you have to turn the guitar's volume pot all the way down if you only want a synthesized sound at any point. Running the pickup into the GK, there's a 3 way switch on it for guitar, synth, or both. You can keep your volume settings for them and just switch between them. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
A standard mag pickup will not drive any Roland synth I've seen. The Boss SY-1000 has an extensive webpage with truly ambiguous information. It suggests that you can drive some synth functions with the output from a standard guitar pickup. But there are also many references to using the GK system - so I absolutely can't tell if the GK and 1/4" inputs do the same thing. I suspect from the way the site is worded that they do not.
It's also hard to understand how a standard pickup could drive the main synth engines, given the fact that GKs have a separate magnetic pole set for each string to send individual MIDI data to the MIDI engine and sound banks, while a standard electric guitar signal contains only an inseparable composite of all strings from a multi-pole pickup. The latest pitch recognition algorithms will identify every frequency in the guitar's standard output signal and convert the fundamentals to MIDI pitch signals. But I doubt that it's as fast, accurate, and error-free as using separate signals fro each string.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
The current video on the Roland US site claims around 1:25: "the GR-55 can add its internal effects to your actual guitar sound."
https://www.roland.com/us/products/GR-55/
No claims that it can drive the synth, just allow you to use the effects chain.
From the video it looks like it can run the guitar sound through the amp sims, modulation effects, EQ and such. IIRC you could do this with the VG 88 and 99 as well.
The video makes it sound like a new feature. Maybe this is using one of the latest updates for the software version or maybe they've changed the hardware a little ... or maybe something else is going on.
Someday, I may grab one for myself, but no hurry.
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At an average street price of $800 new, you could get a very good effects / modeling unit and have enough left over to buy a Gnome and a Toob Metro. I don’t see the GR55 as a viable market alternative to effects and modeling. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
On the other hand, I could be persuaded to spring $40 for a Joyo American
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The "dynamic synth" on the SY-1000 can be driven by the normal 1/4" input, in which case it works more or less like the SY-300, which doesn't even have a 13-pin input. It works by directly processing the input signal, not by doing pitch detection. Hence it won't sound very much like any sampled instrument, but can, with limitations, sound something like a three oscillator synth. It can also work with the 13-pin input in which case it processes each string individually (but still without having to do pitch detection), which in some cases can produce better results than just having the full signal. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
And of course those two can also be used as standard effect processors as well, though if you don't use the synthy stuff then obviously you're overpaying for that.
Really anyone who wants to read about how all of these devices work, both well and not so well, is well served to check out VGuitarForums. Some people get great results, and honestly some don't. Some are able to do what they want fairly easily, but many experience a lot of frustration.
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Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
At an average street price of $800 new, you could get a very good effects / modeling unit and have enough left over to buy a Gnome and a Toob Metro. I don’t see the GR55 as a viable market alternative to effects and modeling.
On the other hand, I could be persuaded to spring $40 for a Joyo American
I'm still tempted by lots of other offerings that I would prefer for effects and amp sims.
If I ever get a GR-55 it will be for the synth capabilities ... the "effects on your actual guitar sound" would be a bonus.
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Agreed! But I do love my synth and will gladly buy a 55 if the price comes down. The synth engine is much better than the one in my 20 and many of the patches are much more realistic. It took me a few years to learn how to use it effectively in live performance. As others have said, it requires precision playing, which means avoiding any fancy stuff and keeping it in the groove. It’s easy to overdo it, and unless it’s good it’s very bad. Originally Posted by Bluedawg
I'm still tempted by lots of other offerings that I would prefer for effects and amp sims.
If I ever get a GR-55 it will be for the synth capabilities ... the "effects on your actual guitar sound" would be a bonus.
The most important thing in live playing as an instrument other than guitar is to understand how that instrument works and how it’s played. Horns have to breathe. You can’t bend notes on a piano or organ. Finger vibrato on a guitar does not sound like the vibrato of a horn player. The synth’s vibrato on sax patches is much more realistic, and you have to remember not to ruin it with your finger. Etc.
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Many years ago, I used an old Casio MIDI guitar. It had some really good design features - dedicated switches for chromatic mode and octave range - and a dedicated standard MIDI cable output.
The tracking was terrible.
Next step was the Fishman Triple Play. The tracking is fantastic. No cables required, as it transmits MIDI via Bluetooth, to a USB stick that plugs into the computer.
On the down side, everything else about it is terrible - poor physical design, useless controls and switches on the unit, unimaginably horrible software.
I always found that the key to MIDI guitar is to create synth sounds just for that, rather than using stock keyboard oriented presets for soft synths.
Assigning velocity to different kinds of parameters (in addition to volume) helps with making sounds more expressive.
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As a pianist, I disagree with this. Never believe what sources tell you. It is extremely useful (and fun) to be able to play the piano, but there's no "must" about it. Originally Posted by st.bede
It's been a few years since I had access to a piano. What's helpful to me as an arranger is to have a keyboard of some kind, it doesn't have to be attached to a piano. I used to use my accordeon for this purpose, but I gave it to the daughter of a friend who wanted to learn accordeon. Now I've bought an inexpensive electronic keyboard. It was 69 €, reduced from 95,99 €. It can make lots of sounds which don't sound that great but it serves its purpose and is fun to play. It has 54 keys. I'd rather have 88, but it was a real bargain.
For the purpose of using the guitar as the input to a synthesizer, I've taken a somewhat different approach. My idea was to get effect pedals that perform the usual functions that synthesizers have, i.e., filters, envelope generators, delays, pitch shifters, etc. I've done this now and it works. I'm not really sure where this is going, though. I've got a few pedals that imitate the sounds of other instruments, like organ and mellotron simulators, but otherwise that's not really what I'm looking for. I'd rather just play the real instruments or get someone to do it for me.
I find the idea of Midi interesting but what really captures my imagination are fully mechanical musical automata.
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Such generalizations seem a bit disingenuous to me. They imply that the author recognizes no authority in others and believes opinions other than his or hers to be worthless. Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
As a pianist for over 70 years (yes, I’m that old - I started when I was 4) and a guitarist for 67, I think that some facility on and familiarity with the piano can be very helpful to all musicians, especially those who compose, arrange, and/or improvise. For example, the guitar (like essentially all instruments except keyboards, vibes, etc) has physical limitations that prevent you from hearing harmonies, inversions etc that span multiple octaves. Many instrumentalists visualize the keyboard when constructing solos, and some even use a mental image of the keys to sight read difficult chords.
There are guitarists who can visualize the fretboard the same way, but to each his or her own. I don’t think you can simply dismiss the piano as an aid to guitarists. And I think you should evaluate each “source” before dismissing advice that may prove useful to you.
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I was being slightly facetious and I thought this would be understood. What I meant was that one should always check the facts for oneself and make up one's own mind. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
Agreed.As a pianist for over 70 years (yes, I’m that old - I started when I was 4) and a guitarist for 67, I think that some facility on and familiarity with the piano can be very helpful to all musicians, especially those who compose, arrange, and/or improvise.
You can play anything on the guitar, just not necessarily all of the voices at the same time and not necessarily in the right octave. Holm Vogel, the blind organist, learns organ works by memorizing the individual voices from the music written in Braille (or whatever the musical notation for blind people is called). That's a very good way to learn Baroque music.For example, the guitar (like essentially all instruments except keyboards, vibes, etc) has physical limitations that prevent you from hearing harmonies, inversions etc that span multiple octaves. Many instrumentalists visualize the keyboard when constructing solos, and some even use a mental image of the keys to sight read difficult chords.
I sometimes visualize a keyboard or fretboard and I find it helpful. I don't need to do this very often, however. Normally, visualization isn't my thing.There are guitarists who can visualize the fretboard the same way, but to each his or her own.
I have done no such thing, as you will see if you reread my post. Additionally, it wasn't advice, it was someone laying down the law. Furthermore, I didn't ask for advice. Finally, unsolicited advice is never good advice.I don’t think you can simply dismiss the piano as an aid to guitarists. And I think you should evaluate each “source” before dismissing advice that may prove useful to you.
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Such generalizations seem a bit disingenuous to me Originally Posted by Laurence Finston
If this, too, is your being facetious, please add disclaimers to such subtlety to help those of us who are too simple to read between one line.
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