Looking for advice: amp in a big band

[Capo153]

Hey folks,

been a lontime lurker, now looking for some advice:
I am playing guitar in a big band recently. My problem is the amplification. I was not happy using a Fender Blues Junior last time in concert due to missing headroom.

This is the scenario:

• Big Band with around 20 members
• We play Swing mostly but also Funk and Rock
• We use a PA-system
• I own a Fender Blues Junior and a DV Mark Little Jazz; Guitar: Ibanez AS 153
• I play solos

So basically I am looking for a solution that will offer me a good clean sound (headroom) with the flexibility to use pedals (crunch…). As a plus I would like the possibility to plug directly in the PA-system. Also weight/handling and costs are important factors for me.

I was thinking of using my Little Jazz with an external speaker (DV Mark Neoclassic 112): this would be quite cost efficient. But I am not shure if the 45W the amp offers are sufficient in every situation. The speaker has 150W by the way. So what would you guys do? Do you think this would be a good choice or would you go for another amp?

Thanks in advance for your advice!

[marcwhy]

Welcome!

Easy answers:
- you're using a PA? -- then your amp volume doesn't have to be that loud! The Little Jazz has a line out, so you "should" be able to plug into the PA! [If you prefer the Blues Jr, get a cab mic, like the Sennheiser E906 or something];
- if needing more stage volume for yourself, the easiest would be what you stated: use an extension cab.

Big band is fun -- enjoy!

Marc

[rpjazzguitar]

The LJ will sound great through a PA. Of course, there has to be a channel for you. You may need XLR to XLR in a long enough cable.

Another option is bringing both amps and finding a way to use them simultaneously. You might plug the LJ's line out into the other amps line-in if it has one. Or use a splitter or a mixer or a stereo pedalboard (my ME80 will do it).

If you want more amplification, then the LJ could drive a powered speaker quite well and they're not super expensive.

I play in a 19 pc big band in a relatively small room for that many players (5 rows of chairs for the audience). The LJ has worked for that, more or less. Solos are heard well. Comping could probably sound cleaner with a bigger amp. My view is that I shouldn't be louder than the piano and the piano isn't all that loud. And, I like the weight of the LJ, a lot.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

Little Jazz, baby!! I've used my LJ or its bigger brother (Jazz 12) on gigs large and small, both with (mic'ed or DI) and without sound reinforcement. The LJ is more than up to the job you describe, especially with the direct out (which is clean and silent). It also does a great job with my Wampler Tumnus Deluxe and Zoom MS60B pedals. And the 8" speaker's actually a better match with a big band than the 12". Especially on the floor, the 12 gets a little boomy as you crank it (which is not a problem through the DI, but it can muddy your sound for you and the band).

I always point my amp toward a wall if there's one close to me - this diffuses my sound well so the band and I can hear me. And by moving it closer or further away and/or tilting the front a bit, you can fine tune your sound to please you without affecting the feed to the board. If there's no nearby wall, I just put it on a chair or stool next to me.

[Gitterbug]

A TOOB 12J pointing upwards is my (biased) recommendation. It's omnidirectional and thus audible to all band members. Many Class D amps to choose from.

[hotpepper01]

I wished I had the luxury of allways having a PA at my disposal. When performing, 99% there is a PA and a crew to do the sound. But in the practise situation, the PA is not available. Only a small one for the singers of our 18 piece band. So, I had to find something with not too much weight, compact, lots of volume, lots of headroom. Well, that is a challenge. I settled on a blonde Fender Tonemaster Twin Reverb. The only thing that it is not, is compact. It is a 200W solid state 2x12. It can handle the bedroom volume, as well as the scarce situation when we are out in the open performing without a PA. You may call that a one trick pony, but it does that trick very well

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

A TOOB 12J pointing upwards is my (biased) recommendation. It's omnidirectional and thus audible to all band members. Many Class D amps to choose from.

No argument at all with that - but the OP does say that he's trying to be "cost efficient". Using what you have is the very model of that philosophy

Having said that, my Little Jazz is currently posted for sale on JGO because of the Toob 10S I got from you and the Quilter Superblock US I got last week to go with it. After all, how much stuff does a guy (or gal) really need? It's like Delbert says.....

[2bornot2bop]

I wished I had the luxury of allways having a PA at my disposal. When performing, 99% there is a PA and a crew to do the sound. But in the practise situation, the PA is not available. Only a small one for the singers of our 18 piece band. So, I had to find something with not too much weight, compact, lots of volume, lots of headroom. Well, that is a challenge. I settled on a blonde Fender Tonemaster Twin Reverb. The only thing that it is not, is compact. It is a 200W solid state 2x12. It can handle the bedroom volume, as well as the scarce situation when we are out in the open performing without a PA. You may call that a one trick pony, but it does that trick very well

Nice CES!

[st.bede]

Here are some of my insights: I have checked out the DV Mark 2x12 cab. At the store it sounded really good. For a guitar cab it weights next to nothing.

I own the 2x8 version. It also sounds really good. (The stuff I run in front of the cab makes a big difference... ie: can sound awesome, or pretty good). It is very directional. If I am right in front of it, the tone is really nice.. it loses a lot off to the side.

I do not know how directional the 1x12 or the 2x12 is.

I am problem solving the directional issue. Tone shield looks interesting, but I wonder if not using an aruluxe sound diffusor would work better. It is an on going debate... but I will probably end up with a couple of tone shields. There is also another diffusor made for guitar amps. It cost a small fortune and is not easily portable.

If you do ens up running two amps, you have to check for phase cancellation. (I always prefer a wet/dry rig but I often do not use one. More stuff to deal with).

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I am problem solving the directional issue. Tone shield looks interesting, but I wonder if not using an aruluxe sound diffusor would work better. It is an on going debate... but I will probably end up with a couple of tone shields. There is also another diffusor made for guitar amps. It cost a small fortune and is not easily portable.

But a wall is free and already there. Try pointing your amp at the back wall of the stage or performance area, assuming it's reflective - curtains will not work. The sound will diffuse in a 180 degree dome with the wall as its base. Moving the amp toward or away from it will change the frequency response a bit, as will tilting the front or back. You have to experiment at each venue to find the sweetest position - but it works great! If there's only a side wall, use that.

[st.bede]

That is a great idea. Free is also one of my best friends.

I am not one to buy musical equipment just because I can.... wait, I lied. I totally suffer from wanting the next thing. I have a long list.

I have justifications for the tone shield, however I also feel like the accruing of more gear might be more apt an explanation. Maybe the first step, is admitting the problem. I should think about ...

oh look a new pedal...

[LifeOnJazz]

Having said that, my Little Jazz is currently posted for sale on JGO because of the Toob 10S I got from you and the Quilter Superblock US I got last week to go with it.

So I take it you prefer the TOOB / SBUS pairing over the Little Jazz? Does the 10S also have the option to stand upright? I got a SBUS recently from a forum member and have been considering different speaker/cab options.

[charleyrich99]

I play in a big band. I bring my amp, a Laney VC30 210 and put it up on a card table so I can hear myself. I angle it towards the drummer who requested that to ensure he can alway hear me. I drape a Shure SM58 over the amp which is connected to the PA so the audience can hear me. The PA speakers are in front of the band so I can't rely on them to hear myself. This seems to work well.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

So I take it you prefer the TOOB / SBUS pairing over the Little Jazz? Does the 10S also have the option to stand upright? I got a SBUS recently from a forum member and have been considering different speaker/cab options.

I love the Toob, and it sounds as fine with the SB as any amp I’ve ever used. But the LJ is very close in sound quality and it has some advantages. It’s smaller and easier to carry than the Toob 10, and even at list price it’s $200 less expensive than a 10S and a SB. And you can get the LJ for $340 new when it’s on sale at MF (which is every 6 to 8 weeks these days).

The Toob Metro 6.5 is a better comparison. With a little head on it, it’s about the same size as a LJ and probably 2 or 3 pounds lighter. And with a good little head the BG sounds similar to the LJ. With a SB, the pair is still USD $100+ more expensive than a LJ. And the LJ is easier to carry because the handle is bigger and easier to get your hand around.

Remember that I also got my new Blu 6 earlier this year, and I have a DV Mark Jazz 12 on stage at the club in which I play twice weekly (along with a SF Vibrolux and a CS PR). I truly have more amps and speakers than I need or will ever use. If we still lived in the house, I’d still have even more and I’d be keeping the LJ too. But there’s only room for geezer gear in our apartment now.

I love my Toobs, I love my Quilters, and I love my Blu. They all sound great and the main differentiators for most are cost, size and weight. You can’t go wrong with any of these. But I also love my Little Jazz and would be very happy with it as my only amp if it came to that.

[marcwhy]

So I take it you prefer the TOOB / SBUS pairing over the Little Jazz? Does the 10S also have the option to stand upright? I got a SBUS recently from a forum member and have been considering different speaker/cab options.

Yes, the 10S has removable feet to stand upright.

[JCat]

I used to play swing in a couple of big bands. The acoustic output is louder than what most people think...A big band is supposed to be loud even without amplification, that was the main purpose having all those horns on the band stand so that everyone in the dance hall could feel the air moving (we used to dance, remember?)

I couldn't get by with anything less than a 2 x 12" combo, but still had problems with speaker distortion.

[entresz]

I've used a Fender Tonemaster Deluxe with the 18pc big band I play in, I had plenty of volume and headroom.

The Little Jazz is loud enough to work too, but I find it starts to sound a bit boxy at higher volume levels.

I have the Micro 60 Jazz head (it's the LJ amp with no speaker), that through my 15" JBL D130 is plenty loud for any band, with none of the boxyness associated with the 8" speaker.

[orri]

I've used DV mark Little Jazz to sub in a big band and it worked fine with only the built in speaker.
Maybe it wouldn't have been loud enough for solos during passages with loud horns, and it could also depend on the room accoustics.

With my limited big band experience, I've felt that during loud tutti passages no one cares or notices if the guitar gets a bit "low in the mix".
And if the guitar gets a solo or some unique important part, the other instruments are usually not blasting fortissimo, but of course there can be cases where you want more headroom.

If you like the sound from your blues junior you can mic it and plug into the PA.
I like the Sennheiser e609 because it can be hung on the cabinet and doesn't need a mic stand (less to carry and setup).

The DV mark little jazz has a XLR line-out but I don't think it has any sorts of cab sim, so I'm not sure how good it sounds directly into a PA? Probably usable, but micing it might sound better?

[Woody Sound]

I used to play swing in a couple of big bands. The acoustic output is louder than what most people think...A big band is supposed to be loud even without amplification, that was the main purpose having all those horns on the band stand so that everyone in the dance hall could feel the air moving (we used to dance, remember?)

I couldn't get by with anything less than a 2 x 12" combo, but still had problems with speaker distortion.

Wow, that band must have been LOOUUUD. I do fine in my loud modern big band with a Quilter combo. Either my 8" or 12".

[JCat]

Wow, that band must have been LOOUUUD. I do fine in my loud modern big band with a Quilter combo. Either my 8" or 12".

Hey Woody,
Yeah, we were big and bold. Full size including two vocalists. And you could still hear the guitar, sweet and clean, because I was properly amped! But my speakers were old and soft. With a modern high efficiency speaker I guess a 112 cab would do...

I've got many amps, including a Blues Junior for grab-and-go purpose. I dig it, but it hasn't got anywhere near the headroom required to cut through and stay clean.
I suppose one could argue that Charlie Christian did fine with his primitive gear or that Freddy Green couldn't be heard anyway....but for me a 212 combo is a proper amp in a big band.

[rpjazzguitar]

I recently had a chance to try that out.

Band is playing in what used to be a warehouse.

Venue provided a Yamaha StagePas 300 on poles which sounded surprisingly good. It was loud enough for a very big room given that we're playing jazz (and some Brazilian pop music) not rock.

I used an XLR cable to go from the LJ into the StagePas. The result sounded very good to me. It never occurred to me that it needed cabinet modeling. I would cheerfully do that again.

[Christian Miller]

Tonemaster Twin

[ruger9]

Not sure how often one of our resident big band players, Jonathan Stout, checks in, but you could probably email him directly and get some great advice... I know he has a vintage Gibson EH-185, but also he uses the Vintage47 version and seems to like it quite alot...

Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

[Christian Miller]

Not sure how often one of our resident big band players, Jonathan Stout, checks in, but you could probably email him directly and get some great advice... I know he has a vintage Gibson EH-185, but also he uses the Vintage47 version and seems to like it quite alot...

Jonathan Stout and his Campus Five featuring Hilary Alexander

When was the last time he had to play the theme from Rocky, eh?

(Bring your big bodied archtop and everybody gangster till the Maynard number)

Seriously, there’s big bands and big bands. Know what the gig is, and choose the gear appropriately. From the OP it doesn’t sound like it’s exactly a period correct Jimmy Lunceford tribute project.

Modern big band -the only good choice is an es335 into Fender amp. Maybe bring some pedals for the rock numbers and score says ‘w. Wah wah’. These tunes are also invariably also the big guitar solo features where everyone expects you to shred it up.

I learned my lesson the hard way haha. After one such gig one of the sax players looked at me pityingly and said ‘you’re such a jazz guy.’

Don’t bring a Fender guitar tho all the horns will make hurtful remarks. It’s got to have f holes.

i know, it’s stupid.

[kris]

I have been playing in Big Band for several years - the more power the amplifier is, the more comfortable you are.
Dv mark-not for me.Well-sounding amplifiers are not light.