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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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09-09-2022 04:11 PM
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Wow, thanks guys. So much good information, so much to think about...
Actually one thing I tend to forget is the interaction with the piano and maybe the general role of the guitar in the Big Band. Staying in the background and not drowning other instruments. But still I would love having a better sound onstage and I will definitely try the Little Jazz in that context. But probably I will feel the need for an extention cab. Especially playing the more modern tunes and playing outside on bigger gigs. Does anybody of you know: if I connect an external speaker to the Little Jazz... is it still possible to use the internal speaker or is it disengaged then? Can I use the On/Off switch of the internal speaker?
But I admit that I also looked at the Tone Master series... but there are quite expensive for modelling amps... but I love the Fender clean sound...
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I am now officially an broken record...
the TM series Twin was a dream come true: how to get the twin sound, at a livable sound level and be able to safely pick it up. My excitement was vast, when I learned about the TM.
When I first plugged it in, wow, I was amazed. The clean was as close as I could reasonable want. Much better then any other modeling situation, I had come across.
I then basked in the glorified light of the fake attenuator. A twin being pushed at a level that was not making my ears bleed. My friend was there. He is local full time local musician, making good money, (as good as a local music can). He also was floored. The twin-ness of a twin, is an amazing thing.
I then did what I do next. Knowing that I have a grip (local parlance for too many) pedals, and that I will be playing in many different genres, I had to grab a pedal. For me a twin is a wonderful pedal platform type of amp.
A beautiful and a little scary fuzz, is a force of nature. One of my favorite fuzz is a Rat. If I remember right, I had my VFE Alpha Dog on hand. (In my experience the best Rat clone(ish) on earth). As I played music round after round with the rat, I noticed a non happy fizzy-ness.
My friend and I talked about that sound, with a solemn grim demeanor.
Granted everyone needs are different. If I only wanted a killer amp to do clean(ish) stuff, the TM Twin would be a great choice. I know myself, I am going to end up wanting and/or needing to run varying levels of dirt.
Maybe I am selling the TM Twin short. How many people are playing a Twin and hitting it with a Rat. I will tell you why that is important ... because what comes around goes around. Sometimes it even goes round and round, like an arrow through your heart.
(Please excuse the bad 80’s references... I think we all experienced the tragedy of 80’s hair metal. Apparently I am still processing).
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That’s what the switch is for - you can use the extension alone or in combination with the internal speaker. A Toob Metro is a great external speaker for the LJ. You get noticeably more clean volume and wonderful tone. Originally Posted by Capo153
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I wonder if the problem might be the attenuation. Did you try it the way you’d run a “real” twin, I.e. full output setting? Originally Posted by st.bede
The only reason I see to use any output attenuation is to add drive to the input stage at low SPLs. But if you’re using a pedal, you can control both drive and volume from the pedal. So there’s no need to attenuate the output stage. If I’m correct, the TM Twin will behave like an analog tube Twin if set and used like an analog tube Twin.
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@nevershouldhavesoldit
Thanks for the clarification. The manual refers just to the headphone jack in connection with the switch. So I was wondering.
Interesting speaker. Which one of the series do you have? And how do dirt pedals sound with it?
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^ This Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I also learned the hard way. And after a few years of trying different guitar/amp combinations (starting with an ES-150!), but for playing everything from Sidney Bechet to Queen I ultimately settled on a Gibson ES-275 (I preferred it to the 335) into various pedals and into a Tone Master Twin Reverb. Whenever possible the Tone Master Twin would go to the PA through the Line Out w/IR. If no PA, the amp would still deliver.
I got to gig with a borrowed Deluxe Reverb RI once, but found that it did not have enough headroom at the volumes I needed (guitar solos with a 22 piece big band at an outdoor gig).
Before the TMTR I played a Rivera Jazz Suprema 55W which always did a fantastic job, but in the end the TMTR was just more convenient, so the Rivera stayed home.
I don’t have much to offer regarding the Rat: I tried one but never liked it and always found it unpleasantly fizzy whatever the amp. I don’t blame the pedal, though: it’s probably just me. I ended up using various other OD/Distortion pedals which actually worked for me.
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This is my personal solution not only for big band gigs.
Bar stool 15€ at the Chinese shops, was untreated wood, I spray painted it black.
Sheet metal wedge I made myself to tilt amp. (1€ for the metal + spray paint)
This is placed directly beside, behind or in front of me, depending on the place and space there is. It's an arm length away and serves as my personal monitor. When I have to adjust something, i just reach out and do it even while playing a solo, no deal. Also I can turn it up to subjectively pretty insane volumes, because it is so close to me (If I'm in the mood to). My mates are pretty happy with it because although it seem rather loud for my ears because it's so close I play at much lower levels now.
Connected to the PA via direct out it's no longer my business to deliver to the crowd.
PS. Of course, if I know the venue has some kind of usable stool or anything else that serves in it's way I don't bring mine. If you don't like the "rustic" look, there are professional solutions like this:
Millenium AS-2001 – Thomann UK
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When it comes to music/gear, I never deal in absolutes. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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I just re-read the manual and you’re right - it does say that the internal speaker switch only works with headphones connected. When it first arrived, I checked out every function (as I always do with new equipment) and I think the switch worked with an external attached. I’ve boxed mine in anticipation of selling it, so I’ll have to take it back out later and find out. Originally Posted by Capo153
[EDIT] I think I just remembered how I did it. I plugged a bare TRS plug into the headphone jack so the internal switch would work. Make sure there’s a speaker plugged into the ext jack before turning off the internal speaker. It’s safest to make sure the amp is turned off before plugging or unplugging anything into either output jack. [/EDIT]
I have a Toob 10S with Jensen Tornado neo 12, a Metro GP+, and a Metro BG both with the last gen SICA 6.5. I run the Metros in stereo with my Roland guitar synth and my Zoom stereo effects pedal, using any of a number of full range stereo amps I have (from a tiny 100W Douk ST-01 to my trusty old Alesis RA100). I just got a SBUS for the 10S, and it makes a fabulous jazz combo that’s louder than the LJ and puts a bit more meat on the 7th string.
I now own 4 pedals. My preferred O/D is a Wampler Tumnus Deluxe because it has excellent 3 band EQ for which flat is really flat. Like a Zen (which I don’t have but do love), the Tumnus can be set to get almost exactly the same sounds from most amps. I get the same smooth drive out of the LJ, the Jazz 12, a CS PR, a SF Vibrolux, etc etc. it even works well through the Leslie cab (which gives a great sound for jazz ballads on its own with the rotors turning slowly).
I also have a Rockett Touch, a Mooer Dumblr, and a Zoom MB60B that I just got. The LJ lets them all do their things. I carry one of the small pedals on every gig and bring the Wampler on blues dates.
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I am playing since many years in a BB mostly swing era things, Count Basie and Co. Sometimes also latin stuff, only few solo parts.
Full staff and loud horns and loud drummers too. No P.A.
I used for a long time my Mambo 10" (150W version), often with a 12" extension cab. Without extension cab I missed headroom.
Then I changed to a DV Mark 50W top together with that 12" cab which reduced the gear volume and weight.
But the 50W were way too small for the band and for my feeling. Also, I got complaints from band members that they would like to here me as before.
Summarizing my current setup, I need a min. 50W Fender style tube amp to have enough power and headroom. An alternative for gigs is a min. 150W SS amp I need to be on the same level as with the 50W tube amp, but with the advantage of having less weight.
The Mambo amp will be used in trio or quartett setups only.
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First, thank you for your wall comment. Right now my amps, in my practice area, are far away from a wall. But because of what you said, I had a light go off in my head. I grab a large board that was lying around and an extra chair, and made my own wall. It is working great. Originally Posted by nevershouldhavesoldit
I will confirm that I heard the fizzy-ness before the funny German youtube guy documented the artifact... I think he goes by pysch24. If you search for it, you could probably find the vid. I think he demonstrated it on a deluxe. As I mentioned, there was another serious musician with me and we both, decided at that moment to pass on the TM stuff. He is more frugal then me, and also believes more in the tube amp thing. However his issue was not the modeling but the artifact. I probably have easily twice the amount of gear, and make less then 50% of what he makes. (My life is a strange but beautiful one).
At what level of dirt or fuzz, the artifact takes place, I do not remember.
It is just something to take into account, when making a purchase decision. For example, if the TM Twin cost less, or I found one used cheap, I would be tempted to buy one, and run it as a lite to non dirt amp. It would not be my first “use only in x” amp.
On the other hand, if I am at GC, and checking out a guitar, the TM Twin is one of my first choices. I can get a loud pushed sound without ear protection. It feels pretty close to if I am pushing one of my tube amps.
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Just a Borys Jazz Solid through an AI Corus.
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If a input channel of the PA can be assigned to your amp ist's enough to use it as a monitor, in a position directed at your own "ears" which exclusively serves the purpose to hear yourself well. All you need is a good microphone or a direct box/output. The advantage of this situation is that you don't need to crank up the amp, which easily could result in sound problems. In a Bigband no one is ecpected to react to the comping of the guitarist so much audibility onstage is not really necessary unless you do some soloing. If that is the case you will need either be monitored for the rhythm section, or you need a amp which is powerful enough, and placed to allow them to hear you well.
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I am a Sith though Originally Posted by ruger9
tbh if you are going to deal in absolutes and not just being tongue in cheek, a 335 and a Twin is not a bad gear hill to die on, so to speak.
I mean I’d accept telecaster, but you do need something with f holes for the big band jazz optics. Although maybe I should bring a bc rich to show the trumpet players who’s boss.
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I do fine in a very loud big band setting with the Quilter MP12 HD. The only issue is occasional feedback.
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haha I wondered if anybody would get that... Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Nothing wrong with a 335 and a Twin. But there's ALWAYS more than one way, and perhaps even a more appropriate way, to skin a cat...
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There are exceptions. Playing a Mambo 8", would most probably change your opinion ;-) Originally Posted by kris
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The Quilter MP HD is ~20lbs. Can do clean or dirty up to ear-splitting levels. Many tone shaping options. Originally Posted by kris
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for a modern big band from bitter experience and years of getting it wrong, I think it’s the best solution. It’s the best way to cover all the bases with one guitar that looks respectable (that is not rock and roll), and have plenty of clean headroom from the amp. Most pros would do this. Don’t think ‘vintage swing’ or even ‘modern jazz’ setup think ‘commercial session/show band’ setup and you are on the money. Often the players seem come from that world and they are usually loud. You may even get electric bass. (And even if the rep is mostly jazz with a double bass, there will often be more ‘modern’ numbers ime.) Originally Posted by ruger9
one important feature of the 335 is sustain - this is really useful for more modern charts where you might want to do washes/swells rather than straight 4 stuff. An es175 say is not as good at this I would say.
I mean you could bring a jazz box and a superstrat I suppose but it’s just hassle .
if you are playing in a big band doing specific repertoire like 30s/40s stuff it’s a terrible choice. For this rep you want a big bodied acoustic jazz guitar and maybe some transparent sounding amplification solution. (There are some bands who perform this music completely acoustically.)
mind one 20s/30 vintage specialist I know, Spats Langham does acoustic big band gigs on a unamplified flat top (even though he’s owned original L5s), so no accounting for taste lol.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-15-2022 at 06:29 AM.
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I spent most of my Musical life in big Bands and just settled on always bringing two guitars to the Gig. With two guitars I can usually manage all Charts without compromises.
Swing repertoire:
acoustic archtop and an Es 150 clone. Depending on the Repertoire i might swap the electric for Banjo
Traditional repertoire:
Acoustic and electric archtop
Modern/Fusion repertoire:
Electric archtop and Es 335
Pop Repertoire:
Es 335 and Flattop acoustic
I just choose based on the setlist
I feel a lot happier not compromising too much. So for me that's well worth just accepting the fact that I'll be carrying a second guitar. I'd hate to do Basie Charts with an es 335. It also comes with the benefit of always having a Backup guitar.
Paul
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Thanks for your insights. And which amps do you use? Originally Posted by Webby
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I usually bring my Fender Bassman which handles pedals extremely well and will cover pretty much every Sound. Recently I've been experimenting with an acoustic amp (Ibanez Tr 20) with some preamp character pedals for electric guitar sounds. With the joyo American Sound i can get convincing Fender sounds, and I love it with my Jr. Barnyard! Originally Posted by Capo153
Paul
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but if you bring two guitars to the gig how can you get absolutely sloshed and then stumble home (which is obviously the point of any given unpaid big band blow?) Originally Posted by Webby
NB the tonemaster twin lives at the pub. Obv.
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I don't know about any others, but on my Little Jazz the push-push switch turns the internal speaker on and off, nothing else, whether or not an external cab is connected. I can have the internal and external speakers on at the same time, or the external only. The external output cannot be silenced other than by disconnecting it. That's what I would expect. The headphone output has no effect at all on mine, the switch works without anything connected to the headphone input. TBH I don't remember ever plugging anything in there.
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