Future of jazz guitar amplification?

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I specifically asked Quilter if this the case, and Pat Quilter wrote back to me saying that the SB and the Aviator have different power amps (25 and 50 watts*, respectively). He said the one in the Aviator is the same as the one in the 101R and the one in the SB is what he called a "mainstream IC".

*without getting into too much mishegas about power measurement, the AC is more powerful and louder through the same speaker than the SB)

Just keep the #s in perspective. Double the output power in watts means (at most) a 3 dB increase in SPL into the same speaker in a completely efficient system (and a bit less in the real world because of mechanical and electrical energy losses to heat etc). There's a barely perceptible increase in maximum loudness and very slightly expanded headroom.

[John A.]

Just keep the #s in perspective. Double the output power in watts means (at most) a 3 dB increase in SPL into the same speaker in a completely efficient system (and a bit less in the real world because of mechanical and electrical energy losses to heat etc). There's a barely perceptible increase in maximum loudness and very slightly expanded headroom.

I have that well in perspective.

[EastwoodMike]

So……
NAD I guess. This thread has had me on a pretty big dive off into discovering all sorts of things about ClassD amps.
Gitterbug I have to thank you for not only making me aware of, but providing feedback in the past on your experiences that have ultimately convinced me to try out a Bam200.
I’ve been eyeing off Quilters for a while. They are as expensive as the tonemasters and double the cost of the Bam. I did happen across a Victory Amp double the cost of a quilter super block with tube tremolo, but it’s not something I really use. And I already have a reverb pedal. Milkman has the (almost) equivalent product and cost but half the power.
Then the Warwick Gnome and TraceElliot Elf. Almost identical to the Bam in feature, function, price. The difference being in the preamp. TC having the mosfet.
After a 19 page TGP thread it was 50/50 down to the Gnome or the Bam. Gitterbug this is where an earlier thread of yours tipped me to the Bam.
Tried out last night into an 8ohm Yamaha 112 cab during ensemble. Wow! I still have to fine tune the master/gain relationship but it put to shame the Yamaha THR100 it was sitting on top of.
So far very happy.
super impressed. I’ll shake down with the Tech21 Paradriver or the Blonde into it and see if it warms up even more. ??

EMike

[pingu]

hi EWMike
I too am happy with my Bam200

like you i would like to ‘Tubify’ the
super clean sound i’m getting
(though a Toob Metro cab)

would you let us all know if you find a good
pre-amp or pedal that achieves this ?

(I’m using a cheap HB american sound
which works fine/ok but would like
something better)

[Eck]

I watched the 3 part 3 hrs each documentary on the Beatles with my Yamaha HPH7 headphones. That Epi Casino from John through I think a Twin Reverb sounds so incredibly beautiful!!!! It seems to have just a deep and rough voice rather than distortion. Now l’ll have to listen to all sorts of music through those headphones to see if any jazz tone matches it.
I really like that Quilter doesn’t model digitally, in a way it makes it the next level Brute.


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[st.bede]

In my limited experience of trying many times (starting in the 80s) to “tubify” an SS amp, I have never achieved that goal. That is not good or bad. I just own a number of amps. I have really enjoyed using the Origen Effects Revival Drive. It it truly an preamp? I do not know. It sounds great, and it certainly impacts I very amp like sound to the front. In me experience, a lot if the magic happens in the power tubes when pushed. There is also the rectifer. A tube one gets the note bloom.

I believe amps (and guitar gear), is a lot like fashion and tech. Sometimes everyone believes that new is best. Then it will flip to everyone believing old is best. New will always be about: how much it can do, how portable it is, and perhaps relablity. Old will always be about: it sounds best, my hero's used it, fond imaginary memories of the past, and some macho-ness thrown in.

All in all, I try to remember (and often forget), how cool those old reggae albums sounded. In other words, use the tools you have. (However that statement coming from me, nears a level of hypercriticism that makes myself self consciousness feel uneasy).

[Christian Miller]

Meanwhile a whole generation has grown up who are fine with modellers partly because they have never really played through ‘proper amps.’

Anyway my spare vacuum tubes arrived today…

[RJVB]

Meanwhile a whole generation has grown up who are fine with modellers partly because they have never really played through ‘proper amps.’

I'm NOT from that generation (nor from the one before that, maybe), but ...

Would you believe that it's only very recently that I discovered that electric guitars are normally recorded via a microphone before the amp? First time I (actually) saw that my 1st reaction was that this was a strangely inefficient way to record an instrument that needs amplification

[wzpgsr]

I'm NOT from that generation (nor from the one before that, maybe), but ...

Would you believe that it's only very recently that I discovered that electric guitars are normally recorded via a microphone before the amp? First time I (actually) saw that my 1st reaction was that this was a strangely inefficient way to record an instrument that needs amplification

Wait till you learn about impulse responses...

[RJVB]

Wait till you learn about impulse responses...

I think I already did (earlier in this thread when I brought up playing through my stereo)

EDIT: but it does happen that e-guitar is recorded via DI, no?

[citizenk74]

I think I already did (earlier in this thread when I brought up playing through my stereo)

EDIT: but it does happen that e-guitar is recorded via DI, no?

Yes. It can be done, and has been done, many, many times. However, many guitarists, such as myself, have spent thousands of dollars and thousands of hours working to get the notes and sounds that they want to hear coming from an amp in the room, and would prefer to record that sound in real time, rather than dipping into a tone library and essentially using the guitar as a trigger rather than a bi-furcated musical instrument: guitar/amp. It's a matter of approach. Call me old-fashioned. Atavistic, even. I. Don't. Care. Obsolescence hasn't changed me. It has simply taken away any reason to care.

[EastwoodMike]

A great many more would argue that the amp and speakers is just as much an instrument as the guitar as well and you play all three at the same time.
Many Jazz musicians included.
It just come down to the tone and interaction you are looking for.

I am under no illusion the BAM I just got is SS and can’t replicate/replace tubes. But I can find a degree of interaction that will take me further into that space between total Tube squish and SS sterility.

EM

[John A.]

Meanwhile a whole generation has grown up who are fine with modellers partly because they have never really played through ‘proper amps.’

Anyway my spare vacuum tubes arrived today…

I know plenty of people who are old enough to have grown up with tube amps and are nevertheless fine with modelers (myself among them).

I managed to play a Quilter Aviator Cub, Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, Peavey Classic 30, and my Princeton Reverb today. Blindfolded, I'd be able to describe differences, but I doubt I'd be able to identify which used which technology.

[ccroft]

....I managed to play a Quilter Aviator Cub, Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, Peavey Classic 30, and my Princeton Reverb today...

So... whatcha gonna do John? Stick with the Prince? Curios about your thoughts. It's hard for many of us to be able to experience that particular array of amps. Something to be said for living in NYC, right?

[pingu]

I know plenty of people who are old enough to have grown up with tube amps and are nevertheless fine with modelers (myself among them).

I managed to play a Quilter Aviator Cub, Tonemaster Deluxe Reverb, Peavey Classic 30, and my Princeton Reverb today. Blindfolded, I'd be able to describe differences, but I doubt I'd be able to identify which used which technology.

Thats a nice selection of amps John !

we all have different priorities

for most day to day gigs
I need

1 good clean sound with a bit of dirt
when pushed
(not incredible/amazing)

2 very low weight and size

3 loud enough to keep up with
Horns , Drumsets etc

4 wide dispersion because I’m usually
on a cramped stage
——————-
This is not easy of course and involves
compromise

my quest .... I am getting nearer tho

[Eck]

Wait till you learn about impulse responses...

Impulse Response functions can only be made for linear systems. Good to recreate the transfer function of a speaker at a volume where it doesn’t distort. That’s all.


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[RJVB]

Impulse Response functions can only be made for linear systems.

? Isn't that saying that impulse response functions can only be linear (which seems a bit bold)?

I'm a bit rusty in the math/physics department but IIRC there's nothing linear about the impulse response of a 2nd or even 1st order high or lowpass filter (and yet we know the corresponding equation).

[John A.]

So... whatcha gonna do John? Stick with the Prince? Curios about your thoughts. It's hard for many of us to be able to experience that particular array of amps. Something to be said for living in NYC, right?

The story here is that I was having my D'Angelico semi hollow refretted at one shop (30th Street Guitars, for those keeping score at home) and picked it up yesterday. I tried it out through their house amp, which is a Classic 30. These are great amps. Too big and heavy for me, and the tone sweet spot is too loud for my uses, but I'd probably pick one of these over a Hot Rod Deluxe if I were looking for something in that neighborhood.

I then hopped on a Citibike (hipster wannabe that I am) and scooted over to Guitar Center, where I tried the Quilter and the Fender with my own guitar.

I'm on the fence about the Quilter. I thought the blond and BF sounds on it were good (and definitely usable), but not as good as a great blond or BF amp. Not that they're poor emulations or not tube-y sounding per, se, but not quite the same magic that some Fender amps have. I could say the same of many tube amps. The tweed sound is great though, and if I get one, that's the sound I'd probably stick to.

The tone and gain/master controls are great too. You can dial in a good range of clean/overdrive and bright/dark on all the inputs.

The gain knob behaves like the volume on a non-master-volume Fender amp. It doesn't just go from clean to fuzz box. It gives the sense of both preamp and power section going from clean to overdriven, with a range of clean/dirty similar to the real thing (i.e., the tweed goes full-on tweed distortion, and the BF stays fairly clean). The master scales that louder/quieter. I find this to be a very effective implementation. I'm not sure I get the limiter, though.

The Tonemaster DR sounds fantastic.
To my ears it's a Deluxe Reverb, full stop, and I think it sounds appreciably better than the the BF sound on the Quilter. However I wouldn't get one of these because the form factor is too big for me.

I should also mention that jammed with some friends on Thursday through a Fender Super Champ XD, which is OK but not something I'd want. And I used my Fender Champion 20 at a jam session. The C20 holds its own remarkably well IMO. The Tonemaster sounds better, but I suspect much of that comes from the larger form factor, better speaker, and a better power amp.

[wzpgsr]

Impulse Response functions can only be made for linear systems. Good to recreate the transfer function of a speaker at a volume where it doesn’t distort. That’s all.


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Thankfully we’re not in the Dokken Guitar Forum.

[Eck]

? Isn't that saying that impulse response functions can only be linear (which seems a bit bold)?

I'm a bit rusty in the math/physics department but IIRC there's nothing linear about the impulse response of a 2nd or even 1st order high or lowpass filter (and yet we know the corresponding equation).

If your transfer function changes as a result of total power that’s passing through you cannot even make an impulse response or that. Nth order filters are completely linear within their functioning limits. Tube saturation changes the TF for a (any) single frequency as a result of more signal in other frequencies. Out the door goes Pascal’s condition. (I don’t mean to sound arrogant, I try to limit amount of text.) btw it’s Fourier rusty me


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[Eck]

Thankfully we’re not in the Dokken Guitar Forum.

Sorry. You mean Systems and Signals II I’m guessing.


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[Little Jay]

I have mentioned them before (a lot, haha) but I still think Award Session gets too little attention. Fantastic solid state amps with a customised negative current feedback circuit (RetroTone they call it) to emulate the interaction between the output transformer and the speaker in a tube amp (solid state amps don’t need an OT). When people refer to tube amp behaviour (“tube watts”, “touch sensitivity“, “responsiveness”, etc) I think they actually refer to this interaction and not so much to the tubes themselves, imho.



Did some comparing my Award Session BluesBaby 22 to my Framus Strato 345 (vintage, 60ies, 1x12”, 2xEL36, ECF80 Phase Inverter) and my 5F1 with 10” P10R:




This week I have a gig and a recording session in the old center of my home town The Hague, so I am planning on taking the bike since parking is difficult there and has become very expensive. The tube amps are a bit heavy to take (the 5F1 is doable but I need just a little more power for the gig). I ended up choosing my Award Session BluesBaby 22 amp in the foreground (I bought the amp as a chassis only and built a lightweight pine cab with a Jensen NEO 12-100 speaker in it. Less than 10 kgs! (20lbs). It has a built in reverb, but the Boss FRV-1 pedal sounds actually better. It sounds great with my Bian/Cooper DIY 330. I’ll admit I prefer my 60ies Framus Strato 345 tube amp (the grey one behind the Session) but that amp is just phenomenal (and very unique). (And too big and heavy to strap to my bike ;-) ) go

[Eck]

I have mentioned them before (a lot, haha) but I still think Award Session gets too little attention. Fantastic solid state amps with a customised negative current feedback circuit (RetroTone they call it) to emulate the interaction between the output transformer and the speaker in a tube amp (solid state amps don’t need an OT). When people refer to tube amp behaviour (“tube watts”, “touch sensitivity“, “responsiveness”, etc) I think they actually refer to this interaction and not so much to the tubes themselves, imho.



Did some comparing my Award Session BluesBaby 22 to my Framus Strato 345 (vintage, 60ies, 1x12”, 2xEL36, ECF80 Phase Inverter) and my 5F1 with 10” P10R:




This week I have a gig and a recording session in the old center of my home town The Hague, so I am planning on taking the bike since parking is difficult there and has become very expensive. The tube amps are a bit heavy to take (the 5F1 is doable but I need just a little more power for the gig). I ended up choosing my Award Session BluesBaby 22 amp in the foreground (I bought the amp as a chassis only and built a lightweight pine cab with a Jensen NEO 12-100 speaker in it. Less than 10 kgs! (20lbs). It has a built in reverb, but the Boss FRV-1 pedal sounds actually better. It sounds great with my Bian/Cooper DIY 330. I’ll admit I prefer my 60ies Framus Strato 345 tube amp (the grey one behind the Session) but that amp is just phenomenal (and very unique). (And too big and heavy to strap to my bike ;-) ) go

I checked out a demo on YouTube. Didn’t sound muddy, sounded like Muddy! I’m in love with it.


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[pingu]

hi LJ
how on earth do you take any of those
rigs on your bike ?

some kind of rack ?
would love to see a picture ....

[RJVB]

LJ, can you explain what the output transformer does and how it interacts with the speaker? Nothing like what Philips did with their "motional feedback" loudspeakers I presume?

hi LJ
how on earth do you take any of those rigs on your bike ?

would love to see a picture ....

These (and their modern equivalent) have become all the rage in the Netherlands (a moving agency still active in Utrecht started out using these back when I was a student there)