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He's got a point. He has sold millions of records and none of them are a rehash of the 1950's.
Originally Posted by sgcim
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06-29-2021 02:19 AM
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Al is a great guitarist who puts on a superb show. Count me as a long time fan. Originally Posted by Spook410
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Well, everyone’s a winner then haha Originally Posted by sgcim
Seriously there’s a weird prestige about being a ‘jazz player’; quite honestly it seems a little strange that people spend time discussing who is or isn’t a jazz guitarist. I mean Ivor Mairants put Clapton in his ‘great jazz guitarists’ book. I always liked that.
In practical terms I tend to think of anyone who can turn up and play a standards jazz gig as a jazz musician. Some do it better than others, but if you can do that, we can play together. And that’s the joy of being a jazz player to me; not so much stylistic gatekeeping. There’s other ways to play together of course, vamps, free improv and so on, as well as many sub-repertoires but that’s what I think of as jazz.
Beyond that, jazz is not a terribly helpful description of music.
OTOH the education system has had quite a top down effect in terms of standardising a repetoire that players have not much emotional connection with. How many jazz players have watched the Uninvited or On Green Dolphin Street?
Often they are told to learn tunes because that’s what people play, and there’s not always much connection beyond that. I kind of think that’s a bad reason for playing a song. Anyway, a bit OT.Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-29-2021 at 07:10 AM.
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There are no limits to what jazz is or could be.
Stating that somebody is NOT a jazz-player is a daring statement.
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I think Marcel is correct!
in my opinion using absolutes (never, must, always) with music…or most topics…is daring. Originally Posted by Marcel_A
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I don’t think Andres Segovia was a jazz player. I also don’t think that’s a daring statement. Originally Posted by Marcel_A
Ok so the other day I was listening to an old Ben Monder album At Night, which I found incredibly beautiful and didn’t make me think of jazz really much. Obviously Monder is a jazz guitarist, but when you have that background but take the instrument out into other avenues are you playing jazz? And should anyone care?
I also like 65 Days of Static who also do a post rock textural guitar thing and I don’t think they could play dinner jazz. I also think I don’t care.
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If Eric Clapton is one of the greatest jazz guitarists of all times, then so is Andres Segovia and Roger Federer. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Well Clapton played the blues, and had some connection to Black American Music. In those days Muddy Waters etc were put on at jazz festivals. And that was back when jazz festivals actually consisted mostly of jazz. I suppose before the British Blues Boom blew up into Blues Rock they weren’t so separate. Originally Posted by Tal_175
Eric tells a story that most of the blues players he met were looking for jazz gigs lol.Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-29-2021 at 07:26 AM.
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People who think this way are usually looking for a way they can hold themselves above others. Within jazz this can be just as bad ‘oh, this type of jazz is the REAL jazz.’ Originally Posted by Lobomov
Just as guilty of it as anyone else. It’s usually insecurity, at least among the young. Among the old, it’s well, being old, I guess.
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OK. Fair enough. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Yet, we have an amazing new jazz artist, Pasquale Grasso, directly influenced by Segovia. Jazz boundaries are fuzzy. Add in influences, fuzzier.
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Of course. Originally Posted by jonh
But you can always find outliers. Segovia is one of them, and he was quite hostile to jazz AFAIK, described Django’s playing as ‘not quite what I think of as music.’
Julian Bream on the other hand … I’m not sure if he ever lost that jazz thing. He obviously wasn’t a jazz guitarist in that sense… but he was touched by it. And he could swing!
OTOH no one is going to say Wes wasn’t a jazz guitarist.
The penumbra of jazz is where we get into trouble seeing things in black and white, and it’s a big, interesting place.
i completely get why players in the core of it worry that jazz becomes a catch all term with no meaning, but TBH I think it’s easily addressed.
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There are two categories of guitar players; Gibson guys and Fender guys. That's just the way nature is organized. Gibson guys don't play Jazz on a SG very often (even though the SG is a pretty good "Jazz guitar") and Fender guys typically don't use the Strat for jazz and they all seem to agree that the Jazzmaster is no good for Jazz. The audience listen with their eyes. Guitar players too. Grab a SG and people expect you to play "Highway to hell". Sling a Les Paul and be prepared to play "Still got the blues". Give us a Stratocaster and get ready for "Purple haze". The Telecaster will forever be a country guitar, no good for anything but country licks or some Keef riffs or Springsteen strumming. Jazz has to be played on an archtop with f-holes, so that everybody can see that you're actually playing jazz. Seeing is believing. Even if you would play death metal on your archtop it would still be jazz in their eyes. Simple as that.
The archtop is not associated with anything but jazz. That's your "jazz guitar". (If you plan to play some Rockabilly, you better get a Gretsch with painted f-holes, or be a fraud). It's ridiculous, you now it but you can't fight nature. I mean, you could, but then you better be good. In 50 years you'll be honored with a signature Jazz SG with f-holes. The f-holes are really important and a hallmark for jazz. Yep.
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I never asked myself this question - there were/are so many guitarists whom I've never seen or heard and I'll never know what type of guitar(s) they've used in which setting etc. so I could never make such a broad statement. Furthermore, where would I draw the line between what's JAZZ and what is not ?
Pat Martino (been playing solidbody electrics for a long time now) could certainly get "his" sound with a Tele (strung with heavy strings) and so could John Abercrombie -
My personal preference is def. the Tele , mainly for it's versatility and comfortable handling (and having met Ted Greene when I was 17...)
There are these british players who stuck to their LP guitars and while they might not be thought of as "Jazz Guitarists" they are great improvisors :
Robert Fripp + Steve Hackett, then there is the great Ulf Wakenius (with Oscar Peterson) of Sweden, Jan Ackerman, Toto Blanke (East German Free Jazzer...), Lee Ritenour, Robben Ford, Steve Erquiaga, Bill Connors, Hadley Hockensmith, Mahavishnu, ....
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I once went to a death metal night at The King's Arms (legendary Auckland music pub, subsequently demolished and replaced by apartments for the aspirational). Several bands played. They looked alike: all the clothes were black, all the faces were grim, all the guitars were pointy. But the guitarist in the last band to play that night was different. He looked young, fresh and happy; he had a yacht rock haircut; he wore a Hawaiian shirt; and he played a sunburst Les Paul.
He would have looked equally out of place in a 21st century jazz combo, the kind that gives its audiences a mid-century modern experience: archtop, double bass, waistcoats, fedoras, no pedals.
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Telecaster with bolt on neck is great for bending the neck for a chorus like sound. That subtle chorus technique is great for solo jazz guitar (early Frisell, Lerch, Greene). Bending the neck not recommended for a set neck guitar like a LP. Sure you can bend the neck on a Strat but unless it is a hard-tail it will not be as stable tuning wise as a Tele. Another interesting question might be why a Tele instead of a Strat for jazz?
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Indeed. Originally Posted by JCat
Just for the record, I've plays a lot of jazz gigs on:
SG's
Tele's
Strats
ES-175
ES-335
ES-330
various full archtops w/ floating pickups
Selmer copies (usually w/ pickup)
and a great sounding but too heavy to use Les Paul recording.
I can play about the same on all of them.
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Another interesting question might be why a Tele instead of a Strat for jazz?
I spent hundreds of dollars on aftermarket pickups over the years trying to get a Jazz tone on my Strat. I found it in 30 seconds on a MIM FSR Tele I pulled off the wall at my LMS. I can’t explain it.
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That is the mojo the tele has.
See the specifications.
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This thread has gotten a bit "existential" . Remember, if a jazz guitarist plays in the forest, pretty much, nobody will come to hear it, regardless of whether he is using a Lester or a Tele.
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I can think of a handful of cats. Beyond the fusion folk (DiMeola, McLaughlin, Bill Connors) Clint Strong and Jack Grassel come to mind. John Abercrombie has used a number of Les Paul and Les Paul Juniors, and his Hudson Project era Brian Moore was LP inspired (as were the double-cutaway Ibanez Artists) Ulf Wakeneus Aria is a LP copy. In the 2000's I was playing regularly with George Freeman, he had a white Epiphone LP and a giant Peavey amp set to 'stun'.. Pat Martino, I believe, started out with a black Les Paul, and his fancy Rivera certainly had it's share of Les Paul DNA...
I've played a bunch of jazz gigs on a Les Paul. I got on the scene WAY before the internets, when you had to more or less make do with what you could find at your local guitar shop. I had jazzier guitars, but the LP was the only one I could find a flight case for (shiny heavy silver Anvil...) so if I needed to get on a plane, the Les Paul was what came with...
PK
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If you love the idiot jazz hater so much, why don't you get the $16,500 deal to have dinner with him over his house? Originally Posted by Spook410
He can tell you how much more creative he is than Trane, Hancock, Tyner, Bill Evans, Gil Evans, etc... over spaghetti and meatballs- cooked by Al Dente himself!
HOME EVENTS | aldimeola
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Did Al Di Meola really say these things? Originally Posted by sgcim
If you love the idiot jazz hater so much, why don't you get the $16,500 deal to have dinner with him over his house?
He can tell you how much more creative he is than Trane, Hancock, Tyner, Bill Evans, Gil Evans, etc... over spaghetti and meatballs- cooked by Al Dente himself!HOME EVENTS | aldimeola
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Yeah, but read any interview with the guy; you won't believe it! Originally Posted by Tal_175
The guy is a superb technician, and he's great at the music he writes and plays, which is all that matters, but jazz is not in the equation.
But let him tell you about how great he is- at 16.5K, you can't go wrong!
HOME EVENTS | aldimeola
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He has posters of himself on the wall
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Bach5g,
Both the Tele and the Strat are great jazz guitars. I gig regularly with both.
More convincingly, so does Oz Noy.
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