Humbuckers versus P90s in a carved archtop

**BlueWolf** · 03-14-2021, 10:39 AM

I’m still on a quest to find the right pickup for a carved archtop I am in the process of obtaining. It’s a beautiful instrument, but it has no pickup. I am going to have a luthier install a floating, pick guard mounted pickup. I’ve found a number of good options for the pickup, and I have my own thoughts about which would be best. I would like to get some other opinions, however, to broaden my perspective. Given that I am looking for a vintage jazz sound, would you recommend a humbucker or a P90 style pickup? Any specific recommendations on a pickup?

**sgosnell** · 03-14-2021, 11:10 AM

I like the DeArmond Rhythm Chief reissue. It's the best-sounding pickup, to me, that I've tried. It can be attached by the rod, or just with Blu-Tack or similar, without any modification to the guitar. The controls can go under the pickguard or in the f hole as desired. It's a single-coil, but sounds more like a humbucker, and is completely quiet.

**Tal_175** · 03-14-2021, 11:13 AM

Here is a good comparison:

**marcwhy** · 03-14-2021, 11:14 AM

Hi,
You received a lot of great ideas in your other, related post regarding pickup makers, and some of these do floating models -- lots to choose from!

Depending on how far back you go regarding "vintage," I'd recommend a P-90. A lot of pickups "color" the sound a bit, though, so if you're trying to amplify the "acoustic" qualities of a carved archtop, you may want to find something that does so as cleanly as possible.

One of Tim Miller's guitars (by Canton -- CAUTION: Canton is "on the run" for taking money and not delivering guitars, so this is "info only!") has a cool internal mic:

Humbuckers versus P90s in a carved archtop-canton-mic-jpg

Humbuckers versus P90s in a carved archtop-canton-mic-jpg

The original "Tim Miller" model's system was by Pickup the World, so you may want to reach out to them for ideas. [I'm not sure if the mic pictured is their's or not, but contact them!]

Happy hunting!

**BlueWolf** · 03-14-2021, 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Here is a good comparison:

Very nice video. Thanks.

**BlueWolf** · 03-14-2021, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by marcwhy

Hi,
You received a lot of great ideas in your other, related post regarding pickup makers, and some of these do floating models -- lots to choose from!

Depending on how far back you go regarding "vintage," I'd recommend a P-90. A lot of pickups "color" the sound a bit, though, so if you're trying to amplify the "acoustic" qualities of a carved archtop, you may want to find something that does so as cleanly as possible.

One of Tim Miller's guitars (by Canton -- CAUTION: Canton is "on the run" for taking money and not delivering guitars, so this is "info only!") has a cool internal mic:

Humbuckers versus P90s in a carved archtop-canton-mic-jpg

The original "Tim Miller" model's system was by Pickup the World, so you may want to reach out to them for ideas. [I'm not sure if the mic pictured is their's or not, but contact them!]

Happy hunting!

Thanks. That is a very cool looking guitar.

**marcwhy** · 03-14-2021, 01:12 PM

I think someone mentioned before, too, but Krivo can make you something nice for an archtop.

**silvertonebetty** · 03-15-2021, 08:38 AM

Personally I’d stick with a floating pickups. I’d suggest a shadow pickup

https://shadowelectronics.com/collec...ducts/sh-az-48

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**darkwaters** · 03-16-2021, 08:35 AM

"Caracter"?

**Herbie** · 03-16-2021, 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by silvertonebetty

Personally I’d stick with a floating pickups. I’d suggest a shadow pickup

SH AZ-48 Attila Zoller Floating Jazz Pickup – Shadow Electronics

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I had Zoller floater in mys Epi Emperor for some time and just loved it. But then my eyes told that it does not go well together with Emperor's style, so I moved on. But if Your eyes won't hurt it is a good classic sounding choice.

I am not sure what to think about the video. It says 'P90' and 'humbucker', but it does not have neither real P90s nor real humbuckers. The SD Rails might fit in some guitars, styles and players, but it is not a real thing. And same goes with 'hb size P90', not a real thing. Maybe that's why the Dynasound sounded best to my ears.

I have heard many players sounding wonderful with an old Gibson archtop and DeArmond 1100. If I were You I would consider the reissue very seriously.

Good luck!

**silvertonebetty** · 03-16-2021, 09:46 AM

Originally Posted by Herbie

I had Zoller floater in mys Epi Emperor for some time and just loved it. But then my eyes told that it does not go well together with Emperor's style, so I moved on. But if Your eyes won't hurt it is a good classic sounding choice.

I am not sure what to think about the video. It says 'P90' and 'humbucker', but it does not have neither real P90s nor real humbuckers. The SD Rails might fit in some guitars, styles and players, but it is not a real thing. And same goes with 'hb size P90', not a real thing. Maybe that's why the Dynasound sounded best to my ears.

I have heard many players sounding wonderful with an old Gibson archtop and DeArmond 1100. If I were You I would consider the reissue very seriously.

Good luck!

Another one is the Charly Christian

Charlie Christian for Archtop Guitars: Lollar Pickups

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**Alter** · 03-16-2021, 10:19 AM

I think P90 vs Hum comes down to personal taste more than anything else. If unable to test both, I'd go by famous players and signature sounds, and just get what was closer to the sounds I'm after.

I really like how P90s and single coils sound, especially the dynamics in P90s for soul jazz and blues, but generally speaking, for live, loud use my favorite sound is humbuckers.

**KirkP** · 03-16-2021, 10:41 AM

“Vintage Jazz Sound” isn’t very descriptive. I’d suggest listing a few specific players and recordings who have the sound you’re looking for, then investigate what they were playing. But keep in mind that the amp & speaker had a lot to with their sound, and that their live sound may have differed from what was recorded.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-16-2021, 10:46 AM

This is more of a philosophical question/discussion, so take it for what it's worth.

I understand people trying to chase some specific vintage sound, and for some sound purists they would only be satisfied with pickup X. But, seems to me young guitarists during the Golden Age of jazz wanted the latest technology.

I mean, the CC pickup is legendary and Pat Metheny seems to be enamoured of them now, but the design is primitive. As I understand it, there's a lot of bleedthrough from one string to another. Maybe this contributes to the sound. But, wouldn't Charlie Christian have played a modern humbucker if had been available, just like Jim Hall and Barney Kessel and Joe Pass and Kenny Burrell did?

Whether to put a pickup in a carved guitar vs a floating pickup is also an interesting question. Obviously there are famous carved top guitars with set-in pickups, though if it were an expensive vintage guitar I'd really want to try a floater first. As far as set-in pickups, the L5ES (for example) only had a P90 for a couple of years, right? I don't see much interest in replacing HBs with P90s in post-war vintage guitars.

I've had a P90 guitar, and it was great for what it did, but it was noisy and unplayable in my house anyway until I got an EHX HumDebugger. I wouldn't mind another one, but I'm happy with my Gibson Classic 57 guitars right now. My favorite guitarists played (mostly) guitars with these pickups, and anything else would be a compromise.

So if I were in your situation I would A) try a quality humbucking floater, and B) if not satisfied, wanting a set-in pickup, put in a quality humbucker like a Gibson Classic 57 or similar.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-16-2021, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

I like the DeArmond Rhythm Chief reissue. It's the best-sounding pickup, to me, that I've tried. It can be attached by the rod, or just with Blu-Tack or similar, without any modification to the guitar. The controls can go under the pickguard or in the f hole as desired. It's a single-coil, but sounds more like a humbucker, and is completely quiet.

Dumb question: how does this single coil pickup not hum?

**BlueWolf** · 03-16-2021, 12:07 PM

Originally Posted by KirkP

“Vintage Jazz Sound” isn’t very descriptive. I’d suggest listing a few specific players and recordings who have the sound you’re looking for, then investigate what they were playing. But keep in mind that the amp & speaker had a lot to with their sound, and that their live sound may have differed from what was recorded.

I’m looking for a Grant Green or a Wes Montgomery sound. I’m pretty confident in my amp, a Two-Rock CLRS, because I know I am able to coax some nice jazz tones out of it with my existing archtop and semi-hollow guitars.

**KirkP** · 03-16-2021, 12:18 PM

Originally Posted by BlueWolf

I’m looking for a Grant Green or a Wes Montgomery sound. I’m pretty confident in my amp, a Two-Rock CLRS, because I know I am able to coax some nice jazz tones out of it with my existing archtop and semi-hollow guitars.

Grant Green and Wes Montgomery had very different sounds, pickups, amps and settings. But I’ll bet if they traded gear for a day and were allowed to tweak setups and EQ to their liking they’d each find a way to sound like themselves. :-)

Famous Jazz Guitarists and Their Guitar Gear

**BlueWolf** · 03-16-2021, 12:20 PM

Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff

This is more of a philosophical question/discussion, so take it for what it's worth.

I understand people trying to chase some specific vintage sound, and for some sound purists they would only be satisfied with pickup X. But, seems to me young guitarists during the Golden Age of jazz wanted the latest technology.

I mean, the CC pickup is legendary and Pat Metheny seems to be enamoured of them now, but the design is primitive. As I understand it, there's a lot of bleedthrough from one string to another. Maybe this contributes to the sound. But, wouldn't Charlie Christian have played a modern humbucker if had been available, just like Jim Hall and Barney Kessel and Joe Pass and Kenny Burrell did?

Whether to put a pickup in a carved guitar vs a floating pickup is also an interesting question. Obviously there are famous carved top guitars with set-in pickups, though if it were an expensive vintage guitar I'd really want to try a floater first. As far as set-in pickups, the L5ES (for example) only had a P90 for a couple of years, right? I don't see much interest in replacing HBs with P90s in post-war vintage guitars.

I've had a P90 guitar, and it was great for what it did, but it was noisy and unplayable in my house anyway until I got an EHX HumDebugger. I wouldn't mind another one, but I'm happy with my Gibson Classic 57 guitars right now. My favorite guitarists played (mostly) guitars with these pickups, and anything else would be a compromise.

So if I were in your situation I would A) try a quality humbucking floater, and B) if not satisfied, wanting a set-in pickup, put in a quality humbucker like a Gibson Classic 57 or similar.

Thanks Doctor Jeff. Useful advice. I am very much committed to a pick guard mounted, floating pickup. I don’t want to cut any wood on this beautiful instrument. I am leaning towards a floating humbucker/mini humbucker, which limits the field a little, but there still seems to be a few good choices for this style. One P90 I have been very impressed by, however, is the Fralin P90, but I would have to place an order with the custom shop to get a floater. I wish I had two archtops that I could mount one of each on to. ? I do currently have a 1980 Ibanez George Benson GB10 archtop, but I’m not looking to replace the pickups in that.

**Marty Grass** · 03-16-2021, 12:32 PM

Kent Armstrong makes a great "P-90" floater. It's closer to a P-90 sound than the DeArmond. I have not yet met anyone who doesn't like this pickup, provided they want a warmer single coil. The ones I've played had a switch to drop the coil wraps to a lower output if desired. You can go from low to higher output on the fly.

**Doctor Jeff** · 03-16-2021, 02:05 PM

Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles

Dumb question: how does this single coil pickup not hum?

I specialize in dumb answers: I don't know.

Different single coils can be more or less susceptible to ground level hum from old house wiring, etc. My Kingpin with the P90 was horrible, whereas it was barely noticeable with either my DeArmond Rhythm Chief 1000 reissue or Tele. In fact I haven't used my Hum Debugger since I sold my Kingpin, though I still have it around, cause you never know when another guitar with a P90 might show up...

**sgosnell** · 03-16-2021, 07:27 PM

I don't know for sure, but the Rhythm Chief isn't strictly a single-coil pickup. There is supposedly a separate winding for the unwound strings, which may be just continued to the other strings. I'm not certain about the winding in the reissue pickups. All I know is that it's very quiet, as quiet as my other guitars with humbuckers.

**BigDaddyLoveHandles** · 03-16-2021, 07:53 PM

Originally Posted by sgosnell

I don't know for sure, but the Rhythm Chief isn't strictly a single-coil pickup. There is supposedly a separate winding for the unwound strings, which may be just continued to the other strings. I'm not certain about the winding in the reissue pickups. All I know is that it's very quiet, as quiet as my other guitars with humbuckers.

So like a P-bass pickup?

**bluejaybill** · 03-16-2021, 08:46 PM

I am on the same quest as you are for a floating pickup, and am leaning towards a Lollar mini-hum bucker. It will be a touch clearer than a standard humbucker, so maybe somewhere in between a HB and a P90. Armstrong makes one as well, and I think a full sizer. That's kind of big for a floater IMHO.

**neatomic** · 03-16-2021, 08:52 PM

tho quite ingenious, the dearmonds are single coil...not the same design as the fender precision...the dearmonds split the magnets and wind between the high E & B strings and the other four G-D-A-E strings, but use only one wrap of very thin wire...not 2 separate even wraps..not true split coils

here's a good overview of the dearmond wiring

https://www.gitec-forum-eng.de/wp-co...armond-pus.pdf

cheers

**Hammertone** · 03-17-2021, 01:08 AM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

Kent Armstrong makes a great "P-90" floater. It's closer to a P-90 sound than the DeArmond. I have not yet met anyone who doesn't like this pickup, provided they want a warmer single coil. The ones I've played had a switch to drop the coil wraps to a lower output if desired. You can go from low to higher output on the fly.

I do like this pickup as well. In the "tapped" lower output position, it strongly resembles the sound of a P-90. In the untapped, higher output position, it strongly resembles the sound of an old Dearmond. Two of my favourite pickup sounds in one great floating pickup.