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I also buy and sell furniture and there is an estate sale nearby this weekend that contains, among other things, a dining set that is worth around $100,000. In that case the estate agents are very aware of what they have, and they are using this extremely valuable piece to entice buyers to the sale. Anyone under the illusion they will be able to score a bargain on that set simply because it’s in an estate sale would be laughed out of the room. It has probably already been promised to a dealer.
Best to make sure your family knows what you have and what it’s worth, or at least who to turn to for guidance if you make a surprise exit, lest any of the sharks who circle around jazzguitar.be show up at the door
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02-11-2021 03:34 PM
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As always, make sure your heirs know what your guitars are worth, not just what you told your wife you paid for them.
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Your candor here made my day. I wish I could be so quick just to admit something like this when i say something harsh. You've set a pace here. I know you weren't trying to, but it's real.
Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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You guys just solve the problem of the internet. On some forums, this exchange would have blown up in personal attacks, but you guys just acted normal. "I had a bad day" "Hey I'm sorry". Originally Posted by rabbit
I love being around adults. Thank you both for being that.
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Adults! Where did all these adults come from? Maturity! Reason! Understanding! Geeze, guys, THIS IS THE INTERNET! Somebody say "NAZI!" or something. Originally Posted by AlsoRan
Seriously... this thread has been refreshing to me.
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About 20 years ago my ex-FIL sold his home at well below market price because he did not want his ex-wife to get a big windfall from the proceeds. He also tore out all the built-in cabinets and removed the appliances.
Someone got a great deal on a house that was already demoed for updating.
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“JC and the Disciples”...I can see it now.
JC would obviously be a songwriter, singer and rhythm guitarist in the mode of Tom Petty. Though he could play a pretty mean lead line if he had to.
WWJP? Classic honest American guitar like a Gibson or Rickenbacker, few effects except maybe tremolo and a touch of reverb.
Or should I say rhythm lyrist?
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Back to EBay, I know we all like to predict who we’re buying from from the few details we’re provided. A quick look at the number of sales, their score, and the other items they’ve offered for sale will tell you a lot about a person, if everything’s legit.
I have bought stuff off widows and family members who inherited items, never at a great discount because they were naive.
When I bought/sold antique handtools I used to search for misspellings like “Stanely handplane”. Not a lot of bids for those.
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Face it, most of these on line marketplaces are like the Wild West. What about the morality of selling a guitar for twice its price, as seen by so many items. It’s on any buyer to be market educated. If you aren’t, stay away.
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"Caveat emptor" is an idea thousands of years old, founded upon the insight that many humans are not particularly ethical and will take advantage when they can. Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop
The original question here was about taking advantage of an uninformed seller who is asking far too little for an item. Imagine, coming across a 1959 Les Paul in a garage sale for $100 because the seller doesn't know any better. As far as they know, it's just an old guitar that someone in the family paid $350 for 60 years ago. I could not, in good conscience, buy that guitar at that price. I would have to go to the seller and tell them what they had and what it was roughly worth. There are a lot of people who would pay the $100 and run for their car as fast as they could, gloating over the great deal they got. It's not a mindset that I share; I guess having my parents having been devout conservative Christians had a lasting affect (even though I am neither a conservative nor a practicing Christian myself).
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You know what, my wife has instructions to post my guitars for sale here in the event of my unexpected demise. I've written down ballpark figures for them, but of course that fluctuates with supply and demand. After watching what happened after Patrick passed away (and a few other of our members over the years), I have faith that y'all wouldn't rip her off. This is a good bunch of people. Originally Posted by conchmusic
Best to make sure your family knows what you have and what it’s worth, or at least who to turn to for guidance if you make a surprise exit, lest any of the sharks who circle around jazzguitar.be show up at the door.
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I am with you and was taught similar ideals. Originally Posted by Cunamara
The funny thing is that their are others who feel they ideals are just as much Christian as ours, and would buy that 59 Les Paul at 100.00 and run.
Just goes to show we don't all think the same and yet can still have the same passion for thinking we are correct. Once this is understood, it is so much easier dealing with others. Many are not just bad people, they just have a different understanding of right and wrong.
As long as they can accept an action they might do when it is done to them as being "just business," then I can at least say they are being consistent in their beliefs. I can deal with a person who is consistent and who limits their double standards.
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I have sold 5 guitars and 2 amps through this forum (I have bought 3 guitars and 1 amp here, all were fine deals). All that I sold were at great prices to the buyers and a fair enough price to me. Had I consigned them, I probably could have gotten more, but it would have taken longer and frankly, I like passing the good deals along. Originally Posted by Cunamara
I have notes of estimated value in all of the case pockets to give my wife an estimate of their worth. She knows of this forum and also which dealers to consign with.
Fail to plan, plan to fail.
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Many communities have a gun collection policy through their police departments. They say they destroy the guns(for public safety) and ultimately have them melted down. I have a friend who was a cop who saw $15-20K Perrazzi and Krieghoff artist model shotguns and collector quality antique guns turned in by braindead housewives who didn't know their value. Did the cops, who know guns, destroy them? Did they tell the widows they could be sold on the open market/dealer for thousands of dollars? Did they have a responsibility to do so? I think you know the answer. Fairness/Morality in the open marketplace? Maybe we should ask Walt Disney.
Play live . . . Marinero
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Unfortunately ETHICS in general are in great need these days. We all need to live with our actions both good and bad. And society these days rewards those who WIN!
I think the only answer is empathy for others. If we are fortunate enough to have a good life with all the basics covered and enjoy extras like hobbies,ect.
And we have good relationships with family as well as others. We are very fortunate indeed. So it comes down to how you treat others.
Again this is what I think we all wish for. Now living up to it is the HARD part of it!
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As pointed out above the OP was about a $2600 335, not a $100 1959 Les Paul. There’s a big difference of degree. The amount of the asking price suggests the seller isn’t completely clueless when it comes to pricing guitars. Originally Posted by Cunamara
That makes the question rather muddy in my opinion and could bring out all kinds of responses.
Interesting to read all the assumptions that people are reading into so little information.
I read that a certain issue recently was a “Rorsach test” for people. This is probably similar.
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I mentioned it twice already, the seller had it appraised 20 yrs ago for 3K and priced it a bit below that amount. She just didn't bother to get a recent appraisal.
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Esprit de l'escalier: what one says after someone else beats him to the deal of a lifetime, "But I am highly ethical and my conscience won't allow it!"
A stonkingly good deal: what that someone else says after beating another somebody to the deal of a lifetime.
I am not George Gruhn and don't pretend to be him. Willing seller. Willing buyer. Leave it at that.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-15-2021 at 01:52 AM.
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Part Deux: ASKING prices are just that, ASKING. Hopeful at best. Wistful at worst. Asking prices are not transacted prices. One is free to ask for any price but it does not mean that he can get it.
Just because a dealer lists a vintage guitar for $8000 does not imply it has a market value of $8000. You budding George Gruhns had better be careful before dispensing your valuation advice because "I saw it listed on ebay for that price".
What looks to be an unethical purchase price may just be a case of your valuation being grossly out of whack.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 02-15-2021 at 01:47 AM.
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No offense, but is that a fact, or just speculation? If true, then she is naive, though how is an anonymous Ebay buyer supposed to know this? There was also talk from someone else about her being a widow, etc. Again, is this fact or just speculation? Originally Posted by wintermoon
There's still a certain point at which it goes from being "taking advantage of a naive seller" to "man I got the deal of a lifetime." Would that be 1/4 the price? Half the price? 3/4 the price? I doubt anyone here insists on paying full market value for each transaction regardless of the offered price. If so LMK and I'll contact you next time I have a guitar to sell.
Last point to make (wow I can still think of clever things to say about this topic! I surprise myself sometimes) I agree with the above that "market price" is just an ideal. It doesn't exist in reality until someone pays that.
My fiancee's BIL has a '64 335 with a Bigsby (red, in case you're interested) that he has been trying to sell on consignment for years. He has priced it, as I recall, at $15,000. He has had no offers anywhere close to that. So it's not worth that amount. It's literally worth no $$$ at this time.
If he needed to sell it to buy a new kidney or something he would price it at whatever he could get, which might be a couple thousand dollars.
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I have stayed away from the thread as most of the thing seems to be situational and it all "depends." It reminds me of the folks standing on the street corners asking for money for food, rides, or whatever......the homeless if we assume they are homeless. So what is the ethical thing to do? Do we give them some of or money or drive by? It depends and unfortunately having worked in the State Welfare Office for 34 years in my civil career I have some opinions, also I am a cleric. The double edge sword.
True story. Befriended a homeless person during a road trip in large city. Got to know them very well and finally ask them why they did find a regular job/ The answer was surprising............oh I could never do this good I make $300-500 a day right in my pocket. It might not exactly be the same situation but it does tell me all dealings with guitars and buying and selling are completely situational.
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There is a photograph of the appraisal in the ad. The seller's Ebay name begins with "Roberta", but that is all we know about the seller's ID. It is plainly apparent from the ad that this person does not know what she has. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
That the guitar would be valued in the open market at $7750+ is evidenced by the fact that the exact same guitar sold for $7750 on Reverb. Because Reverb no longer prints the dates of sales, it's hard for me to tell if the Reverb guitar is from years ago or in fact the very same guitar flipped by whomever purchased the Ebay guitar. (The Reverb seller refers to having purchased the guitar from the original owner in an estate sale).
It could be that 335 seller is an estate agent. For me this would have affected my feeling about buying the guitar at such a low price. As this thread has amply indicated, the details matter.
What continues to interest me is how some people want to add detail that makes the question easier to answer (almost always in the direction of "all's fair in love, war and guitar buying"). Others find the question more interesting if the moral calculations are more difficult.
Your point about asking price vs. market price is well taken. As a child I was an avid baseball card collector (you can see the theme here) and I remember once, during one of my endless conversations with a fellow collector about what this or that card was "worth" (probably based on the Current Card Prices guide), the fellow collector's father overheard us and took the opportunity to explain that our cards were worth exactly what someone else would pay for them on the day we needed to sell them, and not a penny more.
I have used this line with guitar sellers who were convinced a guitar they bought new was "worth" whatever they (over)paid for it, despite the fact that it had been sitting unsold for months or years. It does not go over well.
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Thanks for the information. I did not see the appraisal picture. That does affect it.
As far as the name, could be Robert Allen. Ebay names are fungible. I won't tell you mine, but it's not likely to give you good feelies about a transaction.
I think in the end you have to get as much information as you can, rely on your intuition and make a reasonable decision. I would not knowingly take advantage of someone if they seem sincere and just do not have access to information to make a reasonable valuation.
My advice to sellers would be to not list expensive items on Ebay without doing a decent amount of research. Otherwise, you're not going to get the price you deserve. As said, it is the Wild West on Ebay. Caveat Emptor et Venditor.
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Interesting thread.
I'd have just asked the seller why it was being offered at that price, instead of guessing. A number of very valid scenarios involving no ignorance or moral turpitude have already been posed here. I no longer buy guitars without personal, hands-on evaluation, but if I were flipping them that would be a different situation. If any of you watch Pawn Stars, they never offer more than about 60 percent of any appraisal, unless the piece is exceedingly rare and bound to sell quickly; otherwise, yes, they offer far less than market price for assuming the risk and storing/displaying the item till it sells.
Personal story: my parents had an unimproved 5-acre parcel on a lake, purchased mainly as an investment, and a place for my Dad to fish and garden. About six months after he passed, a couple of siblings and I decided to buy out the others and keep the property. When we inquired about this, we found that my uncle, who was executor of his estate, had sold it at about 20 percent of market value just a month before. He was simply liquidating the estate; nobody insisted on paying more than he asked, and apparently there was no bidding war.
SJ
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Ah, it took the good doctor to get down to the bottom-line question that I had on personal philosophy. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
He typed: "I would not knowingly take advantage of someone if they seem sincere and just do not have access to information to make a reasonable valuation."
For many here, they said this is business and that they would.
Too bad. Does that make one a bad person? That is not for me to judge. But, it has shown me that at least on this case, many more people than I would have at first thought, do not think like Doctor jeff and me. It is what it is.
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