Ethics

**rabbit** · 02-10-2021, 11:47 AM

Originally Posted by conchmusic

... would I have felt compelled to tell her the truth? That if she simply took the time to take the guitar to a reputable dealer (any number of whom I could recommend in her area) she could get nearly 4x as much for it? In other words, would my conscience have stepped in to ruin the deal of a lifetime?

This is the question.

Skip all of the qualifiers, what-ifs', exigencies and contingencies added on in this thread so far.

This is not about the price of the guitar but the price of the buyer.

**AlsoRan** · 02-10-2021, 11:55 AM

Originally Posted by rabbit

This is the question.

Skip all of the qualifiers, what-ifs', exigencies and contingencies added on in this thread so far.

This is not about the price of the guitar but the price of the buyer.

I think the OP is just considering what is the right thing to do for the human being. Of course, in business, its let the buyer (and the seller) beware.

I commend him for considering the implication of the sale on the person's life, especially if it was someone who was in a bad situation and was ignorant of the market value of the guitar.

If everyone did that in their interactions, imagine the goodwill that would be put into the world. It can be contagious. Just my humble opinion.

**Stringswinger** · 02-10-2021, 01:31 PM

If a seller puts something out for sale for less than it is worth, that is on them. This can be for lots of reasons. Wanting a quick sale, having too much money to care etc. IMO, there is nothing unethical about scoring a great deal on an Ebay buy it now purchase. Or an in person Craigslist deal at an advertised price.

Here is what I see as unethical buyer behavior:

Telling a seller that what they are selling has flaws that is factually does not.

Telling a seller that market value is lower than they are asking when it is worth more or it is priced right at market value. (that said, I do not see anything unethical about offering less than an asking price if you are not supplying factually false information when doing so, even if the asking price is low.)

**conchmusic** · 02-10-2021, 02:52 PM

It is common when considering difficult ethical questions for people to dilute the question in order to make it easier to answer. I admit the scenario that I described in the original post involved some assumptions - that the seller was honest, ignorant of the “true” value of the guitar, and that money matters to them. I think if you look at the ad and the seller’s Ebay history, those assumptions are likely, but of course I can’t know for sure.

A lot of the responses have been about changing those assumptions. You could argue that a seller with a long Ebay history and a live internet connection is perfectly capable of understanding the value of the guitar, and therefore my assumptions are less likely.

Obviously if you change any of the assumptions the question changes, but “should we do business with thieves?” or “should we fret over a great deal from someone who knowingly offers us a great deal?” are not interesting topics for a thread.

The interesting question is whether it is ethical to profit from someone’s ignorance when one could easily remedy that ignorance.

To be clear - I would have bought the guitar in a second. It’s the next step that is a question. I have walked a lot of people through packing and shipping a vintage guitar. A little relationship develops. I have had some great conversations and made some great connections. I think going through that process with the explicit knowledge that I was making $6k from the transaction and the seller did not know it would have been too much for me, personally.

For me the best counter is that a seller who has the ability to determine the market value of the guitar, which this seller clearly had, has a responsibility to do so. If they decide to not take the thirty seconds it would have taken to determine the market value of the guitar, that’s their problem. In other words: if you suffer because of willful ignorance, you deserve to suffer and no one needs to feel bad for you.

This is a comfortable response for a lot of people, but boy does it have implications.

Of course, several of the scenarios that people have suggested have simply sought to assuage my regret about missing the sale, and for that I am grateful

.

**AlsoRan** · 02-10-2021, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

If a seller puts something out for sale for less than it is worth, that is on them. This can be for lots of reasons. Wanting a quick sale, having too much money to care etc. IMO, there is nothing unethical about scoring a great deal on an Ebay buy it now purchase. Or an in person Craigslist deal at an advertised price.

This is exactly what a fellow that I know says. He literally makes his living buying things cheap are reselling high. He made over 10 grand getting video games at Christmas and reselling them.

His main source of income is older people, especially those having estate sales after someone dies. Surely your ethics do not extend to cases like this, SS?

**Stringswinger** · 02-10-2021, 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

This is exactly what a fellow that I know says. He literally makes his living buying things cheap are reselling high. He made over 10 grand getting video games at Christmas and reselling them.

His main source of income is older people, especially those having estate sales after someone dies. Surely your ethics do not extend to cases like this, SS?

Sure it does. People who sell stuff in an estate sale are often selling stuff that belonged to someone else and they are after quick cash. It is not the duty of a bona fide buyer to educate sellers on value or talk them into a higher price which may elongate their selling period.

There will always be those who ask too little for used goods and those who profit from it. And there is nothing wrong with making a profit if one does not do so dishonestly in my view. Others think making a profit is unethical. And some think dishonesty is fine as long as you don't have a gun to the sellers head. We all have to live by whatever code makes us comfortable. And as far as sitting in judgment of others goes, I would offer the advice of a well respected historical figure," let him that is without sin among you cast the first stone".

**AlsoRan** · 02-10-2021, 03:55 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Sure it does. People who sell stuff in an estate sale are often selling stuff that belonged to someone else and they are after quick cash. It is not the duty of a bona fide buyer to educate sellers on value or talk them into a higher price which may elongate their selling period.

There will always be those who ask too little for used goods and those who profit from it. And there is nothing wrong with making a profit if one does not do so dishonestly in my view. Others think making a profit is unethical. And some think dishonesty is fine as long as you don't have a gun to the sellers head. We all have to live by whatever code makes us comfortable. And as far as sitting in judgment of others goes, I would offer the advice of a well respected historical figure," let him that is without sin among you cast the first stone".

No judgement here. Just asking what you could live with and your moral code in this case.

Everyone is different. You and I differ on this one, but that is OK. It is good to know how people think. I will make sure that I am well-informed beforehand when I start selling some of the old items that I have laying around and have recently inherited. The guy that I sell it to might not be as concerned about me "winning too" as I might have thought. Good reality check, indeed!

**Lobomov** · 02-10-2021, 04:40 PM

Originally Posted by AlsoRan

No judgement here. Just asking what you could live with and your moral code in this case.

Everyone is different. You and I differ on this one, but that is OK. It is good to know how people think. I will make sure that I am well-informed beforehand when I start selling some of the old items that I have laying around and have recently inherited. The guy that I sell it to might not be as concerned about me "winning too" as I might have thought. Good reality check, indeed!

You know .. In the case you mentioned. It can be the priced possession of the diseased and the center point of a zillion arguments thru out his marriage as wife was not happy that he neglected her for his fucking stupid guitar. Now dude is dead and widow just wants that wrechted thing out of her house RIGHT NOW.

Now she has to have arguments with you that price should be many times higher, which would entail having to hold on to the guitar for months and potentially waste many hours on buyers that haggle, whine and complain, but end of day don't buy it.

Is that ethical?

**Lobomov** · 02-10-2021, 04:45 PM

And bonus question:
Is it ethical that you assume that persons that sell something cheap are stupid or ill informed and not aware of what they are doing?

**mad dog** · 02-10-2021, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by BickertRules

The moral question for me isn’t what the person “deserves”, but rather what kind of person I want to be, or at least believe myself to be.

This rings true. That's what it comes down to for me. I have yet to encounter a seller making a serious error in valuation. It does happen. If it happens to me, I would have a choice to make. Money is only one way to value things. I have loaned out some really good guitars, have also donated several, so have a fair appreciation for the humanity behind the transaction. Hopefully, that would lead me to act in ways I could live with.

**AlsoRan** · 02-10-2021, 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by Lobomov

You know .. In the case you mentioned. It can be the priced possession of the diseased and the center point of a zillion arguments thru out his marriage as wife was not happy that he neglected her for his fucking stupid guitar. Now dude is dead and widow just wants that wrechted thing out of her house RIGHT NOW.

Now she has to have arguments with you that price should be many times higher, which would entail having to hold on to the guitar for months and potentially waste many hours on buyers that haggle, whine and complain, but end of day don't buy it.

Is that ethical?

I did not say I would argue. I would tell them that this 70's Gibson Black Beauty, in flawless condition, is worth much more than $400.00 on the open market. If they still want to take it, I would not argue and would buy it on the spot. No arguing, hey hey.
By the way, I have an older coworker who has that guitar, and will get it appraised now before selling it. A 3-pickup model

**skiboyny** · 02-10-2021, 07:31 PM

Generally speaking I see E-Bay as a place where people that are selling expensive instruments do not want to develop any type of relationship with the buyer. Many times their privacy and unwillingness to discuss details are the very reasons why they would accept less than market value. It might be a figure that they originally paid, and now some 20 years later, are tickled pink to recoup their money. Lots of reasons that people sell cheap, fast cash is usually the biggest one.

**Cunamara** · 02-11-2021, 02:29 AM

Bumper sticker I saw: Dear God, help me to be the person my dog thinks I am.

**djg** · 02-11-2021, 03:31 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Sure it does. People who sell stuff in an estate sale are often selling stuff that belonged to someone else and they are after quick cash. It is not the duty of a bona fide buyer to educate sellers on value or talk them into a higher price which may elongate their selling period.

There will always be those who ask too little for used goods and those who profit from it. And there is nothing wrong with making a profit if one does not do so dishonestly in my view. Others think making a profit is unethical. And some think dishonesty is fine as long as you don't have a gun to the sellers head. We all have to live by whatever code makes us comfortable. And as far as sitting in judgment of others goes, I would offer the advice of a well respected historical figure," let him that is without sin among you cast the first stone".

since you bring it up, what do you think "well respected historical figure" would do with regard to the situation in question?

**Stringswinger** · 02-11-2021, 05:25 AM

Originally Posted by djg

since you bring it up, what do you think "well respected historical figure" would do with regard to the situation in question?

Beats me. Did JC play the guitar?

**djg** · 02-11-2021, 07:10 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Did JC play the guitar?

you think that the guitar is the important part here?

**Tricky Fish** · 02-11-2021, 07:52 AM

If you are offered a gig at $1000, double your usual rate of $500, do you reject the higher rate and only charge $500?

If someone values a product or service differently to you, you shouldn’t feel any guilt transacting at their desired price.

**marcwhy** · 02-11-2021, 08:14 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Beats me. Did JC play the guitar?

He always seemed like he'd play bass, to me -- one of those solid, not flashy kind of bass players.

**AlsoRan** · 02-11-2021, 09:15 AM

Originally Posted by Tricky Fish

If you are offered a gig at $1000, double your usual rate of $500, do you reject the higher rate and only charge $500?

If someone values a product or service differently to you, you shouldn’t feel any guilt transacting at their desired price.

That's exactly what my acquaintance that I mentioned earlier says as he seeks out elderly folks and the ingnoratn who don't know the market value of the items they are selling. It is what it is and this philosophy is affording him a decent lifestyle.

He also is in the sports card business. He paid 400.00 for some basketball players card and 2 months later got $8,000.00. I told him about the guitar business and how valuable some old guitars can be. Now, he is reading up on flipping guitars. There is a whole market out there for this kind of stuff.

Yes, it is what it is and this has been a good wake-up call for me. As of late, my business transactions have been win/win situations for both parties. I can't expect that to happen every time, especially with very expensive items. "Forewarned is forearmed"

**deacon Mark** · 02-11-2021, 09:21 AM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

Beats me. Did JC play the guitar?

No don't think he was a guitar player. But I bet that he would pay us the same wages for a 12 hour gig as those only working the last 2 hours of it.

Gosh that seems unfair right?

**marcwhy** · 02-11-2021, 11:16 AM

Originally Posted by deacon Mark

No don't think he was a guitar player. But I bet that he would pay us the same wages for a 12 hour gig as those only working the last 2 hours of it.

Gosh that seems unfair right?

Ha! Y'know, someone should come up with a short story about that, Deacon ...

**sgosnell** · 02-11-2021, 12:28 PM

This subject is pure capitalism, the essence of it.

**jazzkritter** · 02-11-2021, 12:42 PM

IMHO this thread has nothing to do with capitalism. It’s just plain old human avarice and greed, with some rays of decency shining through.
Found in all economic systems.

**Stringswinger** · 02-11-2021, 01:06 PM

Originally Posted by deacon Mark

No don't think he was a guitar player. But I bet that he would pay us the same wages for a 12 hour gig as those only working the last 2 hours of it.

Gosh that seems unfair right?

Well there sure are a lot of guitar players who think they are God.......

**sgosnell** · 02-11-2021, 02:51 PM

Avarice and greed are the story of the human race. Capitalism just emphasizes it more than some other economic systems. Getting the highest price the market will bear, and paying the lowest price that can be negotiated, is what it's all about. There will always be humans involved who care only about themselves, and there will always be a few who also care about others. Caring for others is the ideal, but the ideal is rarely achieved. Ethics is a complex and variable subject, with different cultures having different ethics. There is no perfect and stable ethical ideal.