Is this plank really worth nearly $4g?

[Doctor Jeff]

Plenty of statistics with regards to wage and income ...
Household Income by Year: Average, Median, One Percent, and Calculator

Hard to make a case a case that income or wage has gone down.

Off course the price of real estate is a special case. Real estate prices have gone up and up and up since somewhere in the 80s until now. There are reasons, so sure .. You can't get the house you wish for .. depends where you live off course. Large cities are rough to break into

I would not argue that income or wage has not gone up over the last 50 years. How much and who benefits is another controversial question.

Some goods and services have gotten much cheaper relatively (TV's, computers), some have gone up quite a bit (education, healthcare).

My main point above is that for the average person these days there are so many MORE things competing for your hard-earned dollar.

[Wildcat]

I live in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. Around 1974 I had a friend who worked for Aurther Treatours (sp) fish and chips. Billy smelled perpetually of peanut oil from make the food. My family love that place. Made Long John Silvers place the equivalent of McDonalds, real fast food.

then when I was 16, frying fast-food fish.

[Lobomov]

I would not argue that income or wage has not gone up over the last 50 years. How much and who benefits is another controversial question.

Some goods and services have gotten much cheaper relatively (TV's, computers), some have gone up quite a bit (education, healthcare).

My main point above is that for the average person these days there are so many MORE things competing for your hard-earned dollar.

But I have to ask .. What does that have to do with what we are discussing here .. Which is Jads nostalgically thinking back to those sweet times when a Johnny Smith could be had for $1200 ... Turns out that 1.2k is 6k in todays money and not cheap in any way

You want a Gibson it's no harder or easier than it was in 1974 ... What you might prefer an 80" TV is kinda irrelevant .. What is perhaps relevant is that unlike back then you can get pretty solid stuff at much cheaper prices than Fender/Gibson .. The cheap guitars of yesteryear where unplayable shit

So 80" TV and a Yamaha Revstar instead of that Gibson Les Paul?



I know I know .. I should just learn to ignore the small but loud crowd here that thinks the world has gone to shit and that life in general and specifically all things music related went to shit somewhere in the 70s .. Pet peeve of mine

[christianm77]

Depends whether or not you subscribe the Labour theory of value, doesn’t it? ;-)

[Doctor Jeff]

But I have to ask .. What does that have to do with what we are discussing here .. Which is Jads nostalgically thinking back to those sweet times when a Johnny Smith could be had for $1200 ... Turns out that 1.2k is 6k in todays money and not cheap in any way

You want a Gibson it's no harder or easier than it was in 1974 ... What you might prefer an 80" TV is kinda irrelevant .. What is perhaps relevant is that unlike back then you can get pretty solid stuff at much cheaper prices than Fender/Gibson .. The cheap guitars of yesteryear where unplayable shit

So 80" TV and a Yamaha Revstar instead of that Gibson Les Paul?

I know I know .. I should just learn to ignore the small but loud crowd here that thinks the world has gone to shit and that life in general and specifically all things music related went to shit somewhere in the 70s .. Pet peeve of mine

Well as I said above my ES-175 was relatively cheaper by about 30-40% in 1982 than in recent years. Plus, back then my education was taken care of, my housing and health care costs were squat, and there was hardly anything else I needed to spend money on. (None of those situations apply to my kids, who are slightly older than I was in 1982.)

Of course we do live in a golden age of cheap yet quality guitars. That does not apply to Gibson though. Whether they're worth the high prices is up to the individual.

I have one Gibson which I bought used, and which was one of the great bargains of my guitar-playing career. The best bargain I had was $150 for a used mongrel Telecaster, which shows you can get a highly playable plank of wood for much less than $4000.

[Litterick]

Simple economics is bunk. The problem is far more complex than supply and demand. The availability of cheap credit and inadequate taxation on unearned wealth are important drivers of house price inflation. Simple economics does not account for a twenty percent increase in prices in one year, in a country that has no natural population growth and no immigration because of Covid, apart from citizens returning home.Besides, simple economics would say demand is met by supply.

Overpriced houses and guitars are the result of excessive wealth held by a minority.

[Doctor Jeff]

Simple economics is bunk. The problem is far more complex than supply and demand. The availability of cheap credit and inadequate taxation on unearned wealth are important drivers of house price inflation. Simple economics does not account for a twenty percent increase in prices in one year, in a country that has no natural population growth and no immigration because of Covid, apart from citizens returning home.Besides, simple economics would say demand is met by supply.

Overpriced houses and guitars are the result of excessive wealth held by a minority.

Uh too much money competing for too few products IS simple economics...a textbook definition of inflation.

[Lobomov]

Well as I said above my ES-175 was relatively cheaper by about 30-40% in 1982

Was that a good deal you found .. or just general price level? ... You can always find deals .. Stuff like the CME sale or used bargains below half new price from impatient people.


Deals like that are very rare off course, but they do show up ...

[Jabberwocky]

A Les Paul Studio is $1499 Gibson Les Paul Studio - Smokehouse Burst | Sweetwater .

It is the Custom Shop thingy that effs it up.

[Doctor Jeff]

A Les Paul Studio is $1499 Gibson Les Paul Studio - Smokehouse Burst | Sweetwater .

It is the Custom Shop thingy that effs it up.

An LP tribute can be had even cheaper:

Gibson Les Paul Tribute - Satin Honeyburst | Sweetwater

Seems like not a bad deal to me.

[Doctor Jeff]

Was that a good deal you found .. or just general price level? ... You can always find deals .. Stuff like the CME sale or used bargains below half new price from impatient people.

Deals like that are very rare off course, but they do show up ...

As I recall it was about $900 with the case AND a Fender Frontman 212 amp. Of course they made a deal and sold it below MSRP. In my experience guitar shops are always wheeling/dealing.

I think one of the problems in discussing costs is MSRP vs street price. You have to compare apples to apples. And, I have posted elsewhere that guitars have historically been notorious for having inflated MSRP’s vs street prices compared to other consumer products.

But the point remains: if I had paid $900 for that deal in 1982, I would expect to pay $2400 or so today, based on inflation alone.

Are components harder to come by these days? Perhaps, but not a big cost for laminates. Plus there should be much more efficient production techniques, which will drive down costs.

The big factor in 175 and LP inflation, IMO, is the “prestige tax”—the privilege of owning a storied Gibson brand guitar. Plus some from the demand side from collectors and trust fund dilettantes who don’t mind paying big bucks.

Nothing illegal or even immoral in that, it’s just the way it is. But something similar can be had for a lot cheaper, or you can just pay whatever they’re asking.

[Lobomov]

As I recall it was about $900 with the case AND a Fender Frontman 212 amp. Of course they made a deal and sold it below MSRP. In my experience guitar shops are always wheeling/dealing.

I think one of the problems in discussing costs is MSRP vs street price. You have to compare apples to apples. And, I have posted elsewhere that guitars have historically been notorious for having inflated MSRP’s vs street prices compared to other consumer products.

But the point remains: if I had paid $900 for that deal in 1982, I would expect to pay $2400 or so today, based on inflation alone.

Are components harder to come by these days? Perhaps, but not a big cost for laminates. Plus there should be much more efficient production techniques, which will drive down costs.

The big factor in 175 and LP inflation, IMO, is the “prestige tax”—the privilege of owning a storied Gibson brand guitar. Plus some from the demand side from collectors and trust fund dilettantes who don’t mind paying big bucks.

Nothing illegal or even immoral in that, it’s just the way it is. But something similar can be had for a lot cheaper, or you can just pay whatever they’re asking.

I don't see much difference .. Deals can still be had .. Dealers still sell way below MSRP ... Archtops probably aren't the best to do price comparison on as the demand for those is a only a fraction of what it once was, Les Paul's are much better and even here we run into apples and oranges problems as in the say 1982 you where offered the Les Paul Standard .. Take it or leave it, while these days you have a wide range of price points that still say Gibson on the head stock .. The Tribute has a MSRP of $1100. I like the standard much more than the tribute, but in terms of bang for the buck it is severely better than the standard.

Another thing is that we probably should discount 2020 ... The pandemic and lockdown has made it a record year for guitars sales and thus I don't expect much in sales this year .. Normally you'll see blow out sales comes January and that Tribute would normally be had for $800 (and Les Paul Standard dropping below the current price of 2500)


Anyways .. I don't think we'll get anywhere closer to agreement .. It's Christmas eve, so all the best to you guys .. Merry Christmas everyone!!

[Woody Sound]

I live in Pittsburgh Pennsylvania. Around 1974 I had a friend who worked for Aurther Treatours (sp) fish and chips. Billy smelled perpetually of peanut oil from make the food. My family love that place. Made Long John Silvers place the equivalent of McDonalds, real fast food.

That's where I worked! Arthur Treacher's. They used peanut oil because it allows you to cook everything - Fish, shrimp, fries, chicken, in the same vat without transferring the taste. It was all delicious. Luckily I like fish, because as an employee they allowed you to eat as much as you wanted on your breaks. And at the end of the night I would cook a lot so there was plenty left to take home for the family. Even fed the cats! You are right abut the smell though. If you wanted to do anything social after work, you had to go home and take a shower first.

[skykomishone]

Ah, the memories!
I owned a '60's Gibson SG Standard.
Loved that guitar, until I started listening to Wes, and Kenney, Django, Christian, and Joe, and Bucky and John, Pat Martino, et al, then things changed. I had to have an archtop guitar.

Woody, you reminded me of a time back then when I dated a gal that worked in a chili parlor. I'd hook up with her after her shift, and she always smelled like a couple of cheese coney's with onions and mustard to me!

At any rate, after switching to archtops, I fell in love with them. 50 year love affair. Still that way, and all of the attention on these solid body guitars hasn't shaken my love. But, its said, the devil has a thousand faces to temptation, and some of these planks do look attractive, I must agree.

[citizenk74]

If you think these prices are crazy, look at the prices on a real 58-60 LP special. To people who are convinced original vintage ones are magic and that the reissue nails it, the Custom Shop reissue (or the Collings) is a bargain. But I'm not one of those people. I've never jonesed for a Special. 50s gold top is another story though. If I had the scratch for one of those ...
John

I hear you on those gold-tops! The owner of a music shop I frequented and for whom I had done some work* had a beautiful personal collection of instruments including a couple of gold-topped Les Pauls. He had recently sold one for $1000. A grand! At the time I just didn't have the means. But they were beauties! Cream-colored P-90s. Yum!

* The gentleman was working on a lifetime project: he was building the world's largest electric guitar. I calculated the fret placement for him.
The scale length was in the seven or eight foot range, I forget the exact details. I had to talk him out of tuning it to concert pitch.

[Jim Soloway]

I think this thread has taken an unfortunate turn. The question of value is not really how something compares to its past price as much as how the current price compares to alternatives currently on the market. And as a few people have already noted, the quality of less expensive guitars has risen spectacularly.

[christianm77]

Simple economics is bunk. The problem is far more complex than supply and demand. The availability of cheap credit and inadequate taxation on unearned wealth are important drivers of house price inflation. Simple economics does not account for a twenty percent increase in prices in one year, in a country that has no natural population growth and no immigration because of Covid, apart from citizens returning home.Besides, simple economics would say demand is met by supply.

Overpriced houses and guitars are the result of excessive wealth held by a minority.

TL;DR Blues Lawyers fault

[Doctor Jeff]

I don't see much difference .. Deals can still be had .. Dealers still sell way below MSRP ... Archtops probably aren't the best to do price comparison on as the demand for those is a only a fraction of what it once was, Les Paul's are much better and even here we run into apples and oranges problems as in the say 1982 you where offered the Les Paul Standard .. Take it or leave it, while these days you have a wide range of price points that still say Gibson on the head stock .. The Tribute has a MSRP of $1100. I like the standard much more than the tribute, but in terms of bang for the buck it is severely better than the standard.

Another thing is that we probably should discount 2020 ... The pandemic and lockdown has made it a record year for guitars sales and thus I don't expect much in sales this year .. Normally you'll see blow out sales comes January and that Tribute would normally be had for $800 (and Les Paul Standard dropping below the current price of 2500)


Anyways .. I don't think we'll get anywhere closer to agreement .. It's Christmas eve, so all the best to you guys .. Merry Christmas everyone!!

LOL I agree with you that a Gibson plank for $1100 is a good deal...

But...

Not to quibble (LOL), but the MSRP on the Les Paul Tribute is $1399. The demo models are marked down $200.

Gibson Les Paul Tribute - Satin Honeyburst | Sweetwater

If you want something more similar to the OP guitar a Gibson solid non-carved LP can be had for $899 out the door at Sweetwater.

Gibson Les Paul Special Tribute Humbucker - Natural Walnut Satin | Sweetwater

I’m just busting your chops of course.

We have a bit of snow here in Omaha, so at least it will be a white Christmas. Happy holidays!

[Doctor Jeff]

I think this thread has taken an unfortunate turn. The question of value is not really how something compares to its past price as much as how the current price compares to alternatives currently on the market. And as a few people have already noted, the quality of less expensive guitars has risen spectacularly.

That’s true, but it is also an interesting question whether an item such as the LP, which hasn’t changed at all to any significant degree over 60 years, is priced similar to what it was 40-50 years ago, accounting for inflation.

None of us (as far as I know) are economists, but it’s interesting to see how we “value” certain items and rationalize prices. My economist fiancee will appreciate this.

[Doctor Jeff]

Ah, the memories!
I owned a '60's Gibson SG Standard.
Loved that guitar, until I started listening to Wes, and Kenney, Django, Christian, and Joe, and Bucky and John, Pat Martino, et al, then things changed. I had to have an archtop guitar.

Woody, you reminded me of a time back then when I dated a gal that worked in a chili parlor. I'd hook up with her after her shift, and she always smelled like a couple of cheese coney's with onions and mustard to me!

At any rate, after switching to archtops, I fell in love with them. 50 year love affair. Still that way, and all of the attention on these solid body guitars hasn't shaken my love. But, its said, the devil has a thousand faces to temptation, and some of these planks do look attractive, I must agree.

I don’t know about onions and mustard...unfortunate olfactory memory, if you ask me.

My first girlfriend wore grape lip gloss, and of course every time I smell grape I think of that first kiss.

And my college girlfriend smelled of patchouli and some musky kind of perfume whose name I know not, but if I smell either of those I am transported to a smoky room in the frat house where we spent many an hour listening to great music and slowly breaking each other’s hearts.

[Jim Soloway]

That’s true, but it is also an interesting question whether an item such as the LP, which hasn’t changed at all to any significant degree over 60 years, is priced similar to what it was 40-50 years ago, accounting for inflation.

None of us (as far as I know) are economists, but it’s interesting to see how we “value” certain items and rationalize prices. My economist fiancee will appreciate this.

I did study some economics. I enjoyed it too.

[Lobomov]

LOL I agree with you that a Gibson plank for $1100 is a good deal...

But...

Not to quibble (LOL), but the MSRP on the Les Paul Tribute is $1399!

Fair enough .. tbh I looked it up on Gibson's page and assumed that they'd show the MSRP

Gibson | Les Paul Tribute

None of us (as far as I know) are economists

Hehe .. I thought working with national statistics and the consumer price index would be a dead give away that I am one, but apparently not (Now the question is, whether I play a PRS?)

Cheers!

I did study some economics. I enjoyed it too.

We have a bit of snow here in Omaha, so at least it will be a white Christmas. Happy holidays!

Sounds wonderful .. We haven't had a white christmas since 2010 ... enjoy

[HeyNow]

$999

Gibson Les Paul Special Tribute P-90 - Vintage Cherry Satin | Sweetwater

The "Custom Shop" is ridiculous. Associate a Les Paul with a famous name (Bloomfield) and they can charge $5k more.

[HeyNow]

Pretty much everything. I remember sitting in their booth the year they released the first 290s. There were a bunch of serious players, none of them affiliated with Collings, and we all just sat there passing around one of them with the dog hair finish and everyone was equally stunned. I'm not sure that Collings was happy about it. They had a booth that featured a lot of much more expensive guitars and the only one getting any play was that 290. It was flawlessly built, beautifully finished, a perfect weight with great balance, and just sounded wonderful. The neck, frets and fingerboard made everyone happy despite a lot of different preferences. Just really great guitars. My recollection was that the first batches retailed for around $2500 and a few of them ended up on the used market under $2000. I wish I had bought one (although I probably would have sold it like everything else so I don't feel too bad).

BTW, the later humbucker version and the ones with the less traditional body shape did absolutely nothing for me. None of that original magic was there.

I owned a dog hair Collings 290 for a bit. Excellent guitar. Very light weight. Bought and sold for ~$2k a few years ago. Collings prices have gone nuts recently (as well as Santa Cruz).

I don't understand charging thousands more for an aged finish. Their un-aged finishes are the best I've seen. Up there with Benedetto.