Is this plank really worth nearly $4g?

[Lobomov]

Not for me either ! But I'm 63 and remember a Johnny Smith costing $1200 New from Gibson. So I come from an era that saw solid bodies being nowhere the value of a Carved Archtop guitar.
Unfortunately the guys who played Archtops that were considered the guitar icons I grew up with are no longer with us.

Yeah well ... Here is the deal .. You're a musician and despite us disagreeing on "modern music" I respect your skill and you've played in some stellar bands back in the day.

But currently you're ventured into my field, which is national statistics and specifically the consumer price index, which measures inflation. I won't bore you with the specifics on how it is compiled, but the thing is that you can actually compare prices of yesteryear with the prices of today .. and in these modern times it's easier than it ever was for anyone to do this:

Inflation Calculator | Find US Dollar's Value from 1913-2020


So I decided to test your claims .. and yes .. a JS definately did cost $1200 at some point. But since we don't know what year that was, I decided to look for old price lists. A quick google search gave me one from 1969 and one from 1978.
Gibson Catalog | Guitar Compare | Gibson Brochures | Gibson Price Lists

The 1969 price list only has Les Paul's so lets look at those to start with.
In 1969 a Les Paul Custom was priced at $575 which is $4070 in 2020 money
In 1978 a Les Paul Custom was priced at $879 + $99 for the case which is $978 and equates $3900 in 2020 money.

Both of which are on par with today prices. But interestingly enough in 1978 you could further more order a The Les Paul priced at $3000, which in 2020 money is $12000 .. It is described as the ultimate solid body guitar and is available in natural and wine red.
I have no idea what that is and google is of no help ... Maybe you can remember it? ... Anyways looks just like a pretty normal Les Paul on the picture

Archtops
So let us look at the 1978 prices for archtops
The ES175T and ES175D where $799 + $109 case = $908 which is $3625 in 2020 money
A Johnny Smith with case is $1549 which is $6180 in 2020 money
Most of the high end archtops will end around $6000 in 2020 money. The L5s are and Super400s are slightly more expensive than the JS and will commonly end around $6400


In other words there is nothing that signals that Gibsons where cheaper back in the day .. Sure the last couple of years after the Gibson "Bankruptcy" they've shut down their archtop production and archtop prices have gone slightly crazy, but until then .. same as it ever was ... And btw .. The CME sale a few years back might well have been historically low prices .. You had brand new ES175s selling for 2k, didn't you?

[rpjazzguitar]

Sound and play great -- not so expensive.

Look great -- more money for the wood and the work that goes into binding, inlays etc.

I think the Tele is a good example. Originally cost $150 (equivalent to about $1500 now). Of course, that was without competition or anybody else figuring out how to do things cheaper. Great design, probably with a lot of attention to cost. Sounds great. Not fancy.

I will soon post a video. I tried to play this tune with my Little Jazz and Comins GCS-1 but it didn't sound good. I ended up with a Yamaha Pacifica 012 (the cheapest one) and a Crate GFX15, which sold new for under $100. Sounded much better. You can't always hear the cost.

[citizenk74]

[QUOTE=Jabberwocky;1084705]You may ask the same question about the equivalent Collings:

Collings 290 Throbak P90s | The Music Emporium .[/QUOTE

That Collings intrigues me. It reminds me strongly of my Les Paul Special '55/'78 "Reissue" which had an LP-shaped solid mahogany slab body, mahogany neck, a stop tail-piece, and a pair of the sweetest P-90s you've ever heard. I got mine for $200 b/c some nitwit knocked it off the stand in the store, giving the headstock/neck area a nasty crack. I took it home, glued & clamped it, and had a working guitar for many years. I eventually gave it to a good friend, who in turn eventually traded it in to a repairman who fixed it properly (splines, splines, splines) and sold it back to me for $650.* The last I saw of it, I lent it to another friend who was working on a studio project (I also lent him mics, stands, an amp (original Gorilla amp, very underated), and a tape recorder. I'm sure they will show up eventually.

Point being, the combination of all mag construction and those P-90s is tonal magic!

Worth the dough? I'll wait for somebody to bust one, and see what happens.

* A guitar so nice, I bought it twice.

[Lobomov]

Worth the dough? I'll wait for somebody to bust one, and see what happens.

Sounds like you're going to just give in at some point ... Why not just go for it .. You deserve it!

[John A.]

If you think these prices are crazy, look at the prices on a real 58-60 LP special. To people who are convinced original vintage ones are magic and that the reissue nails it, the Custom Shop reissue (or the Collings) is a bargain. But I'm not one of those people. I've never jonesed for a Special. 50s gold top is another story though. If I had the scratch for one of those ...
John

[Doctor Jeff]

It is not a lot of money if you have a lot of money.

I am still gobsmacked by the story of the guy who walked into a guitar store and asked what's the most expensive you've got and bought 3 of them...

I am sure there are people who buy cars that way. Maybe houses too, who knows?

[Doctor Jeff]

Archtops
So let us look at the 1978 prices for archtops
The ES175T and ES175D where $799 + $109 case = $908 which is $3625 in 2020 money
A Johnny Smith with case is $1549 which is $6180 in 2020 money
Most of the high end archtops will end around $6000 in 2020 money. The L5s are and Super400s are slightly more expensive than the JS and will commonly end around $6400

In other words there is nothing that signals that Gibsons where cheaper back in the day .. Sure the last couple of years after the Gibson "Bankruptcy" they've shut down their archtop production and archtop prices have gone slightly crazy, but until then .. same as it ever was ... And btw .. The CME sale a few years back might well have been historically low prices .. You had brand new ES175s selling for 2k, didn't you?

Does the inflation calculator above account for the high rate of inflation in the late 70's? Cause I bought a 175 in 1982 or so for $900 including the case, and that should be worth a mere $2,427.01 right now, according to your reference. $2400 seems about right for that guitar; $3625 seems too high to me.

[Lobomov]

Does the inflation calculator above account for the high rate of inflation in the late 70's? Cause I bought a 175 in 1982 or so for $900 including the case, and that should be worth a mere $2,427.01 right now, according to your reference. $2400 seems about right for that guitar; $3625 seems too high to me.

Yeah it does. The consumer price index has a long history and has been compiled for over 100 years. I have no concrete knowledge of the specifics regarding the work that the US office of labor statistics does.

Here in Denmark I was involved with the making of it with it for 5 years.

We are a small country, but so we collect around 20.000 prices each month in order to make the over all consumer price index. You start with making a milk index, bread index, clothes index etc etc .. around 500 separate of these and then it is all weighted together to make the consumer price index. I could imagine that the US price collection is several magnitudes larger

Anyways enough small talk .. Point is that this work has a long tradition and is solid. I mean in certain countries it's not completely trustworthy between WW1 and WW2 where many countries suffered hyperinflation, but I can't imagine it not being rock solid post WW2 in any developed country.


But with regards to your example .. $900 in 1978 is $3600 in 2020 .. while $900 in 1982 is $2400 .. seems it does capture that the world was a bit gaga in the late 70s

[Woody Sound]

The 1969 price list only has Les Paul's so lets look at those to start with.
In 1969 a Les Paul Custom was priced at $575 which is $4070 in 2020 money
In 1978 a Les Paul Custom was priced at $879 + $99 for the case which is $978 and equates $3900 in 2020 money.

Archtops
So let us look at the 1978 prices for archtops
The ES175T and ES175D where $799 + $109 case = $908 which is $3625 in 2020 money
A Johnny Smith with case is $1549 which is $6180 in 2020 money
Most of the high end archtops will end around $6000 in 2020 money. The L5s are and Super400s are slightly more expensive than the JS and will commonly end around $6400

In other words there is nothing that signals that Gibsons where cheaper back in the day .. Sure the last couple of years after the Gibson "Bankruptcy" they've shut down their archtop production and archtop prices have gone slightly crazy, but until then .. same as it ever was ... And btw .. The CME sale a few years back might well have been historically low prices .. You had brand new ES175s selling for 2k, didn't you?

Ah but you're not taking slower wage growth into account compared to inflation. In 1974 I bought a new 335 w/ case for $399. From money I earned doing papers, and then when I was 16, frying fast-food fish. I doubt a 16yo could buy a new 335 now from those jobs.

[Doctor Jeff]

Ah but you're not taking slower wage growth into account compared to inflation. In 1974 I bought a new 335 w/ case for $399. From money I earned doing papers, and then when I was 16, frying fast-food fish. I doubt a 16yo could buy a new 335 now from those jobs.

I have been making that exact same point for years. I used half of the money I earned one summer (working as an orderly at minimum wage) to buy that guitar. And yes students could finance their own education at a state university without going into debt.

I posted this on a car forum recently—cars, not guitars, but the principle is the same:

I think it is an interesting question whether cars/trucks/homes/airplanes have kept pace with incomes, and whether innovations justify a relatively increased price.

Obviously some things like personal computers and quality TVs have come WAY down in price.

I think the bigger issue though is the increased cost of so many discretionary items. Think of it:

When I graduated high school (1979, or so they say...), my dad made in the mid-$20's as a supervisor at Dupont. My parents owned their own home with no mortgage (paid off in 15 years). I think they bought it for $15,000 or so in the late 50's.

The phone bill was about $10 a month, and we rented a phone from Ma Bell for $2 a month. No internet. Cable was just starting--thanks Ted Turner and TBS!--and cost $10 a month, which my dad thought was outrageous.

We had a family health plan through Dad's work. He had some supplemental insurance policies and joked that when he got sick he actually made money. (I personally never saw a medical bill until I left the military and went into private practice around 2000. Then I got exposed to high deductibles like everyone else.)

My '77 Celica cost about $4500 ($19,300 in today's dollars) new. I made about $2000 each summer I worked at a minimum wage job during college--made $2.50 an hour doing seasonal work one year at an amusement park. Talk about slave labor!

Public college cost $500 or so a semester. My private college was about $5000 a year. Government grants--not loans--and scholarships were plentiful, so I got a free ride. When I went to med school a few years later it cost $10,000 a year--thank goodness for my Air Force scholarship! Nobody I knew ever had any outstanding debts after college.

My first apartment was $200 a month, and the most I ever paid for a rental was $400 for half of a 2-bedroom duplex in the mid-80's.

And that was about it...no expensive gym memberships, streaming fees, Apple phones and watches and whatnot...

Not sure what this all means, but it sure seemed simpler (and probably cheaper) 40 years ago...

[Woody Sound]

I have been making that exact same point for years. I used half of the money I earned one summer (working as an orderly at minimum wage) to buy that guitar. And yes students could finance their own education at a state university without going into debt.

Yes, another good point. I too paid for my univ edu from the previously mentioned job frying fish. And no loan whatsoever. Try that today.

Buying a new car outright was not that big a deal back then either. Today it's crazy.

[Woody Sound]

Gibson Custom 1960 Les Paul Special Double Cut Reissue VOS - Cherry Red | Sweetwater

I think my main point was, you can get a carved top sunburst standard for a lot less.

Gibson Solidbody Guitars | Sweetwater

[zdub]

Even more interesting is the low end of the market. In 2020 you can get a quite decent solid body new for $150 today (Yamaha, Harley Benton, etc etc). The first inflation calculator that I googled said this would be the equivalent of $15 in 1970 or $32 in 1980. Which would not buy you diddly squat back then.

[Litterick]

Guitars of this kind are Veblen goods: "a type of luxury good for which the demand for a good increases as the price increases, in apparent contradiction of the law of demand, resulting in an upward-sloping demand curve. A higher price may make a product desirable as a status symbol in the practices of conspicuous consumption and conspicuous leisure. A product may be a Veblen good because it is a positional good, something few others can own.” For these goods "the value is at least in part (if not exclusively) a function of its ranking in desirability by others, in comparison to substitutes."

[Lobomov]

I have been making that exact same point for years. I used half of the money I earned one summer (working as an orderly at minimum wage) to buy that guitar. And yes students could finance their own education at a state university without going into debt.

I posted this on a car forum recently—cars, not guitars, but the principle is the same:

I think it is an interesting question whether cars/trucks/homes/airplanes have kept pace with incomes, and whether innovations justify a relatively increased price.

Obviously some things like personal computers and quality TVs have come WAY down in price.

I think the bigger issue though is the increased cost of so many discretionary items. Think of it:

When I graduated high school (1979, or so they say...), my dad made in the mid-$20's as a supervisor at Dupont. My parents owned their own home with no mortgage (paid off in 15 years). I think they bought it for $15,000 or so in the late 50's.

The phone bill was about $10 a month, and we rented a phone from Ma Bell for $2 a month. No internet. Cable was just starting--thanks Ted Turner and TBS!--and cost $10 a month, which my dad thought was outrageous.

We had a family health plan through Dad's work. He had some supplemental insurance policies and joked that when he got sick he actually made money. (I personally never saw a medical bill until I left the military and went into private practice around 2000. Then I got exposed to high deductibles like everyone else.)

My '77 Celica cost about $4500 ($19,300 in today's dollars) new. I made about $2000 each summer I worked at a minimum wage job during college--made $2.50 an hour doing seasonal work one year at an amusement park. Talk about slave labor!

Public college cost $500 or so a semester. My private college was about $5000 a year. Government grants--not loans--and scholarships were plentiful, so I got a free ride. When I went to med school a few years later it cost $10,000 a year--thank goodness for my Air Force scholarship! Nobody I knew ever had any outstanding debts after college.

My first apartment was $200 a month, and the most I ever paid for a rental was $400 for half of a 2-bedroom duplex in the mid-80's.

And that was about it...no expensive gym memberships, streaming fees, Apple phones and watches and whatnot...

Not sure what this all means, but it sure seemed simpler (and probably cheaper) 40 years ago...

Plenty of statistics with regards to wage and income ...
Household Income by Year: Average, Median, One Percent, and Calculator

Hard to make a case a case that income or wage has gone down.

Off course the price of real estate is a special case. Real estate prices have gone up and up and up since somewhere in the 80s until now. There are reasons, so sure .. You can't get the house you wish for .. depends where you live off course. Large cities are rough to break into

[Vladan]

IMO, as a hobbyist, no guitar is worth more than (one) monthly salary. If I was professional musician, or collectioneur I would think differently.

What I find problematic, the difference in salary for the same type of work, from region to region, country to country and how easily people accept it. Especially those on the upper side. Do they really feel/think they produce enough value to justify the salary, to afford that high price of recreational commodities, such as multi thousand $ priced guitars? Does it ever occur to them how much suffering and poverty is caused only to preserve their "way of life"?

My Band camp

[Alder Statesman]

It is very clean

So’s Paul’s grandfather.

[ThatRhythmMan]

Plenty of statistics with regards to wage and income ...
Household Income by Year: Average, Median, One Percent, and Calculator

Hard to make a case a case that income or wage has gone down.

Off course the price of real estate is a special case. Real estate prices have gone up and up and up since somewhere in the 80s until now. There are reasons, so sure .. You can't get the house you wish for .. depends where you live off course. Large cities are rough to break into

Real estate AND higher education.

[Litterick]

Pew:

Most of the increase in household income was achieved in the period from 1970 to 2000. In these three decades, the median income increased by 41%, to $70,800, at an annual average rate of 1.2%. From 2000 to 2018, the growth in household income slowed to an annual average rate of only 0.3%. If there had been no such slowdown and incomes had continued to increase in this century at the same rate as from 1970 to 2000, the current median U.S. household income would be about $87,000, considerably higher than its actual level of $74,600.
...
More tepid growth in the income of middle-class households and the reduction in the share of households in the middle-income tier led to a steep fall in the share of U.S. aggregate income held by the middle class. From 1970 to 2018, the share of aggregate income going to middle-class households fell from 62% to 43%. Over the same period, the share held by upper-income households increased from 29% to 48%. The share flowing to lower-income households inched down from 10% in 1970 to 9% in 2018.

[Gabor]

You're making some assumptions that I would argue are at least incomplete. There is much more at play than just "media and advertisement and cultural hypes".

yes I know, it is really much more, my list of hype reasosns is not complete or actually it is wrong. Anyway the point and emphasis was on it worth to talk about it, contrary to "leave it".

[Lobomov]

AND higher education.

I purposely ignored the higher education part cause I didn't want this to turn into yet another political thread. So let's just quickly note that this is an US issue and not necessarily a worldwide issue.

[Litterick]

I am still gobsmacked by the story of the guy who walked into a guitar store and asked what's the most expensive you've got and bought 3 of them...

I am sure there are people who buy cars that way. Maybe houses too, who knows?

Here in New Zealand, the average house price has risen twenty percent this year, and is now eleven times the average household income. Investors have been buying everything they can.

[Michael Neverisky]

So’s Paul’s grandfather.

[Michael Neverisky]

Here in New Zealand, the average house price has risen twenty percent this year,

The covid dividend for the investor class. Housing prices here in Nowhereville, New England USA have also risen this year for this reason.

[Stringswinger]

The population of the world has been increasing while the supply of real estate, for the most part, has not. Increased demand coupled with no increase in supply results in a higher price. That is simple economics.

There are also more guitar players with this increased population along with a decrease in the desired tonewoods needed to make the guitars that the market demands. Advances in the guitar manufacturing process have kept desirable guitars from becoming as expensive as desirable real estate, but as the tonewoods disappear, I expect that $4k for the guitar in question may one day look like a pretty fair price.