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How about that, eh?
Originally Posted by sgcim
Rudy came out of his office at the 48th St. store when he heard me playing some jazz. When I told him I had a '35 D'A, he took me back to his office, and told me, "You know I like the way John made his guitars."
Then he offered to trade me a Pat Martino solid body L5 for my D'A. After playing a Hondo and a Squire professionally, and then getting a Borys B-120, I felt like he was trying to take advantage of me, and was annoyed.I was back to being a hollow body player then, and didn't want to go back to solid bodies. Now that I think about it, he might have been right about the PM L-5 being a better fit for my body than the D'A, because I'm playing a guitar like that now, but I don't think they were anywhere worth the same amount of money back then.
I don't trust any of those guitar guys. Mandolin Bros. offered my father $1,000 for it at a guitar show, and told him it was a POS. That guy that calls himself the Guitar Dr. offered him $900 for it, and also told him it was a POS. Carlo Greco offered me a trade for one of his semi-hollow body guitars for it. I understood that the Greco was a more practical guitar for contemporary music, but again, the monetary value didn't seem equivalent. The guitar always gets different reactions from different people. Jack Wilkins played it, and called it "the best guitar in the world". Bucky fell in love with it, and played the shit out of it. I'll probably wind up dying with it, and have them use the wood for my coffin.
Shocked! I tell, you, shocked!Last edited by Hammertone; 12-10-2020 at 07:07 PM.
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12-10-2020 05:04 PM
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Originally Posted by sgcim
Rudy came out of his office at the 48th St. store when he heard me playing some jazz.
When I told him I had a '35 D'A, he took me back to his office, and told me, "You know I like the way John made his guitars."
Then he offered to trade me a Pat Martino solid body L5 for my D'A. After playing a Hondo and a Squire professionally, and then getting a Borys B-120, I felt like he was trying to take advantage of me, and was annoyed.I was back to being a hollow body player then, and didn't want to go back to solid bodies.
Now that I think about it, he might have been right about the PM L-5 being a better fit for my body than the D'A, because I'm playing a guitar like that now, but I don't think they were anywhere worth the same amount of money back then.
I don't trust any of those guitar guys. Mandolin Bros. offered my father $1,000 for it at a guitar show, and told him it was a POS.
That guy that calls himself the Guitar Dr. offered him $900 for it, and also told him it was a POS. Carlo Greco offered me a trade for one of his semi-hollow body guitars for it. I understood that the Greco was a more practical guitar for contemporary music, but again, the monetary value didn't seem equivalent. The guitar always gets different reactions from different people.
Jack Wilkins played it, and called it "the best guitar in the world". Bucky fell in love with it, and played the shit out of it.
I'll probably wind up dying with it, and have them use the wood for my coffin.
it can be that way w/ a lot of dealers, though some are very honest about values. no way in h. e. double hockey sticks I'd trade a DA for some off the rack production guitar.
way back when I took a vintage acoustic archtop to Mandolin Bros [I won't say what it was] and they offered me $1500 for it. they had 7 DA's ranging in price from 15k to 50k all lined up and I played them all. The only one that sounded better was a lefty Excel strung up righty so I took my guitar and left even though they begged me to sell. I wound up getting 15K for it that summer.
on the other hand I just made a trade w/ a dealer today. I know the value of both guitars and thought I'd have to kick in 1/2 over value in cash since he's a dealer but he offered a straight trade, very unusual but I think he wants it as a personal instrument.
so there are still some very fair deals. dealers of course can't pay retail or trade straight up value all the time if they want to stay in biz very long.
too bad I didn't know sgcim then, I might own that snakehead today
check out this clip, especially around the 2:00 mark
Stromberg Archtop Guitar, ca. 1950 | Antiques Roadshow | PBS
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what year was that??? late 1970's?? d'angelico's could be found for 1000$ back then!...and a new gibson martino l5-s listed for about that!
if 5 guys offered you around the same $$$, were they all crooks?
and a kid from long island at that!! haha
don't be mislead by current pricing...in the 70's-early 80's, 48th street was filled with great guitars at bargain prices...i saw just about everything...from strombergs, to early gibbys, mosrite double necks,...they'd be just sittin in the sun filled windows!!
if i could transport back there for an hour, and buy some, i'd be a rich man today
i knew every shop on 48th st...well...i was in rudys when he was just opened up, upstairs...he didnt even have the street level shop...that ws later...and rudy was by far the cream of the crop...and then the last to leave that once great street!...i can't tell you how great it was back then!
cheers
ps- one last thing...that was before the internet...if you wanted to sell a guitar you placed an ad in the buylines..or local selling gazette...or you traded/sold with a store...who gave you very little of it's value...they knew they were the only game in town!!...rudy was the best with that as well..if he liked the guitar and liked you, he'd always take care of you... i know, i was that kid..always scrounging for the next guitar!!Last edited by neatomic; 12-10-2020 at 05:53 PM.
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nah, you weren't buying any DA's for a grand in the late 70s. but certainly a decade earlier when smart guys like Michael Katz [rip] were buying them.
I'd have bought more than one if they were that cheap, and I was really in tune to archtop values from back then on. the 60s is when the acoustic archtop market was down [kinda like today] and you could get a nice DA for a grand
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I never begrudge a dealer who tries to buy low and sell high, so long as they do not engage in fraudulent behavior.
I spent a lot of time on 48th street in the 70's when I lived in NYC. Rudy's, Alex Music, We Buy Guitars, Sam Ash. Lot's of good memories.
In the late 70's I studied with Allen Hanlon. Allen shared a studio with Barry Galbraith and Sal Salvador and I got to meet both of those guys. Their studio was at 1697 broadway suite 902. (Broadway and 53rd).
Between my time in NYC and my early studies using Mel Bay books, D'Angelico guitars have a special place in my heart.
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I saw many D'Angelicos for sale for $1000 on 48th street in 1977/1978. In fact that was the going price. And they sat for months at that price in the store windows. I did not have that much to spend on a guitar in those days. Wish I did. Originally Posted by wintermoon
nah, you weren't buying any DA's for a grand in the late 70s. but certainly a decade earlier when smart guys like Michael Katz [rip] were buying them.
I'd have bought more than one if they were that cheap, and I was really in tune to archtop values from back then on. the 60s is when the acoustic archtop market was down [kinda like today] and you could get a nice DA for a grand
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you and NA may be right, maybe I'm thinking of the 80s Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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an older post from ss..who was also there!
Original price of D'Angelico, D'Aquisto, etc. adjusted for inflation
Stringswinger-
John D'Angelico priced his guitars according to Gibson's pricing schedule. By Jimmy D'Aquisto's day, vintage Gibsons and D'Angelicos had risen in value and Jimmy was able to charge more than Gibson was getting for similar offerings (perhaps John D'Angelico might have been able to get more if he tried?).
When I was in college in the mid 70's, a used D'Angelico was going for about $1000, a used L-5 about $800 and a new D'Aquisto was pushing two grand (IIRC). If I had the money then, I would have bought one.
cheers
ps- hah, ss you posted before i did! cheers
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Wm and Neatomic, Having experienced the ebbs and flows of the Archtop market, do think it will ever rebound? Do you think Gibson will ever start making L5's and 175's again? Were the other "down Markets" caused more from financial difficulties, or were there times when Young people just lost interest?
Seeing Young guys like Matteo Mancuso, Pasquale Grasso, Seoin Lee and the other Music Force guys gives me hope.
If I was little kid right now, these guys would inspire me.
JD
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Joe, they say everything old is new again, but who knows. if you threw your skinny ties in the trash once the late 60s hit who knew they'd ever make a come back?
younger people don't typically buy vintage archtops these days, they're more of a baby boomer thing. but guitars like vintage Fender and Gibson solid bodies and Martins should stay pretty strong imo. after the entire market crashed when prices had skyrocketed and the market became flooded those guitars have stabilized to a degree but vintage archtops, especially acoustic models never really rebounded. time will tell, but I wouldn't bank on them ever really recovering, at least not in our lifetime.
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Joe D, i think this forum celebrates the last of the archtop generation!...and even that's nostalgia for most...many are just as content with a tele or even some beautiful boutique solidbody (and rightfully so...i get it)...fact that gibson and therefore epiphone no longer make thick body arch's is a bad sign..heritage owned by bandcamp! ugh...and with current covid related economics, it's hard to imagine a return to classic usa made archtops...especially on a big scale.
i think, as i've said before, its a great time for independent archtop luthiers...if they can work their way thru the present conditions...good luck to them...and us all
cheers
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But Gibson does still make thickbody archtops. All you have to do is order one. Originally Posted by neatomic
As far as "big scale" goes, Gibson hasn't done archtops on a "big scale" since the 1960s, over 50 years ago.
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anything above zero is a big scale...these days
for gibson to operate like an independent archtop luthier can't last too long...and not the mindset of the guys who are in control...they are corporate not artisans!
whats hofner doing?
cheers
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IDK fashions in collecting come and go, but younger people today are not very sentimental about old stuff, and too "digital", with all the implications that entails. Originally Posted by wintermoon
Joe, they say everything old is new again, but who knows. if you threw your skinny ties in the trash once the late 60s hit who knew they'd ever make a come back? younger people don't typically buy vintage archtops these days, they're more of a baby boomer thing. but guitars like vintage Fender and Gibson solid bodies and Martins should stay pretty strong imo. after the entire market crashed when prices had skyrocketed and the market became flooded those guitars have stabilized to a degree but vintage archtops, especially acoustic models never really rebounded. time will tell, but I wouldn't bank on them ever really recovering, at least not in our lifetime.
I collect a few other things like old handtools and duck decoys and vinyl records, and I can't see anyone my kids' age or younger having the least interest in these things, even as collectibles. I imagine my kids will send them to the dump when I'm gone...
Musical instruments may be different, but I think a vintage Les Paul or Strat similar to those played by people they've heard of (Jimmy Page, Slash) may have more interest than a big old box played by Joe Pass or Johnny Smith. Hope I'm wrong.
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I think you (and other pessimists here) are wrong about archtops. Originally Posted by Doctor Jeff
New generations will discover the guitar, they will discover jazz and they will realize that archtop guitars are the best of the best. The rare (and best of the best of the best) vintage archtops will have value, and lots of it. Machine made archtops coming from the far east? Probably not as good an outlook, just as the old Harmony, Kay and other cheapo archtops from yesteryear have not become very valuable.
But vintage Gibsons, Epi's, Guilds and especially the DA's, DAQ's and Strombergs should hold value fine over time, IMO.
I wouldn't bet on the long term value of today's individual luthiers to the same extent as the tried and true vintage makers, but a great guitar from Benedetto, Campellone and the other first rate makers of today should hold significant value over the long haul.
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I bought my D’a s before 1985. Lord the deacon is grateful. I still entertain buying another. It could happen.
The generation on today under 30 has zero contact with an ordinary Super400 acoustic.
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not to stray too far from the focus of our thread
mark knopfler (hot off sultans of swing) found rudy when he was still upstairs on 48th st...had rudy make him guitars and took rudys employee- jack sonni- on as a member/guitarist for dire straits! jack was a great guy as well
rudy! with knopfler and monteleone
cheersLast edited by neatomic; 12-10-2020 at 08:46 PM.
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"But vintage Gibsons, Epi's, Guilds and especially the DA's, DAQ's and Strombergs should hold value fine over time, IMO."
I hope so but they haven't moved up in 20 yrs at this point and many are coming down. And considering inflation/cost of living over that time span relatively speaking, they're really not holding their value.
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I agree. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
As someone who collects vintage spirits and has a good connection with the youth of today as well as my elders on personal level I see archtops making a comeback and doing well in value down the line. Youth strives for progress, tech, advances, etc, but they are also anal/obsessed with "the real thing" and stuff from the past. Smoking filterless cigarettes, coffee culture, etc, etc. At some point there will be backlash against the modernization of instruments and a focus on "real" guitars made from hand. You see it all the time these days. Just wait imho.....
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Arguably, vintage archtops got bid up too fast from 1995 to 2005 (irrational exuberance?) and what we have seen in the last 15 years has been a needed correction. I wouldn't consider vintage archtops to be a particularly good investment, but as far as toys go, they are way better than say, a new Corvette. A vintage archtop, if bought carefully, should not depreciate and should keep pace with inflation moving forward. Originally Posted by wintermoon
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There were a few collectors amassing huge collections of classic archtops during that period who alone surely had no small part in driving up prices. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
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The thing with Rudy had to be in the late 90s. Greco, about 2004 or so. I wouldn't call them crooks; that was their business, buy low, sell high. Originally Posted by neatomic
But the things with my father were earlier, maybe early 90s, and they tried to tell my father it was an old piece of junk.
He was friends with John D and Jimmy D themselves, so he knew what it was worth. He told Mando and the other guy where they could shove it.
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I think Gibson has segmented the market in a variety of ways, most of which involve high-volume production. They don't operate like an independent archtop luthier at all, but do offer a simple higher-end service to those who wish to order instruments through their Custom Shop. I'm surprised only that it took them this long to do it. It's a great way to skim the cream. Originally Posted by neatomic
Hofner hasn't made more than a few jazz guitars yearly in Europe for over a decade. They are too busy making classicals and orchestral strings to bother. Once in awhile, they remember to make a few Beatle basses. Originally Posted by neatomic
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I don't specifically remember D'Angelicos from that period (hollowbodies were not on the radar for me, a beginner rocker in high school), but I do remember that $1000 was a lot of money for a guitar back then. Pre-CBS Fenders were in that neighborhood (to many people's shock), and the only Gibsons that fetched any sort of premium were sunburst Les Pauls (and maybe original dotneck 335's). Otherwise, the rest was just used guitars, and a lot things that people gush over now were thought of as junk. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
John
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I just took a look at the inventory there and I'm a little disappointed. He's got one 1937 non cut New Yorker for 82 grand that is marked as mint condition. I looked over the pictures and in no way is that even close to mint. There are scratches all over the thing. The only thing about it is that it has its original pickguard and binding. It's still a cool looking guitar but in no way 82 grand. I could understand if it were a celebrity guitar in better condition but it's non cut and not perfect.
Actually, I couldn't even be close to affording anything like that even if the price was cut to 25% so it might as well be on sale for a cool million.
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