Call for moratorium on 335s

**joe2758** · 06-04-2019, 09:05 AM

Anyone remember when Christian called 335 "horrible Mickey Mouse things?" haha that shit killed me

**Irez87** · 06-04-2019, 09:16 AM

**wzpgsr** · 06-04-2019, 09:36 AM

I’m sitting here looking at my white Seventy Seven Rubato Jazz (come on Christian, it’s got JAZZ in the NAME, fer crissakes) with a tear rolling down my cheek. Maybe it doesn’t count, though, because it has a spruce top and (I think, I hope) a hollow block.

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 09:37 AM

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by gitman

When I grew up and started getting into Jazz in general (from ca. 1974) all I had was pictures in the few magazines I could get my hands on (the occasional Downbeat, Guitar Player was unobtainium), the backs of album covers and the records/radio to listen to. I found BB King, Pass, Martino, Benson, Metheny, Sco, Wes, Carlton, Abercrombie, Hall, Burrell, all these giants playing different guitars and having a personal and identifiable stye and sound and in the interviews I read their advice to young players : go find your own voice. It's hard work, takes a long time and maybe you'll never get there but it's essential in art....
The internet/information revolution changed all that. Cloning is everywhere and whether that's good or bad remains to be seen -

As for the percieved ubiquitous ES-335 with reverb and delay : it's different over here in Europe and I see a many more older/cheaper archtops in the hands of the young guys along with lots of Eastman, Ibanez, Godin and Teles are everywhere.

Adam Rogers - 335, not a scintilla of reverb. Somehow he manages to make that boring flat tone into his own..... it’s like ‘pure music, no interesting or attractive guitar tone to distract you from the note choices and beat placement.’

Show off

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 09:49 AM

Originally Posted by Jonah

Whenever I come across 335 style guitar the guy says: ''it is not only fio jazz you know.. this is what I like it for... archtops are for jazz only and this is not only for jazz.''

It seems like they pass this motto each when they sell the guitar over...

They should try plugging a 175 into a drive pedal.

Sounds amazing.

**rmpmcdermott** · 06-04-2019, 10:26 AM

I don't give a shit what they're playing as long as they swing. They could be playing a Washburn Dime Slime for all I care. Hell, I play a Strat for most of my jazz sessions. And I DO own an archtop, which I adore. But the Strat is home for me and I can think less about the guitar and more about the playing.

**TOMMO** · 06-04-2019, 10:38 AM

We should all make a donation to a fund so Christian will be able to afford a 335 at last....because I think that's the real problem here: sour grapes....

**jorgemg1984** · 06-04-2019, 10:50 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Adam Rogers - 335, not a scintilla of reverb. Somehow he manages to make that boring flat tone into his own..... it’s like ‘pure music, no interesting or attractive guitar tone to distract you from the note choices and beat placement.’

Show off

I believe he uses a little reverb. Just a touch, but his sound is usually not 100% dry, if my ears are working. No delay, though.

**Hammertone** · 06-04-2019, 11:17 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Adam Rogers - 335, not a scintilla of reverb. Somehow he manages to make that boring flat tone into his own..... it’s like ‘pure music, no interesting or attractive guitar tone to distract you from the note choices and beat placement.’ Show off

I feel kind of sorry for him. I don't know if he drank the Kool-Aid, or simply never experienced the sound of a good carved archtop guitar, but the poor guy doesn't know what he's missing.

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 11:33 AM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

I believe he uses a little reverb. Just a touch, but his sound is usually not 100% dry, if my ears are working. No delay, though.

That might be post production. Live his sound seems to be quite dry....

Obviously sometimes there’s a bit more reverb than you might hear live. But I think with AR it seems like the aesthetic is to that it’s not heard by the audience so much.

**rmpmcdermott** · 06-04-2019, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

I feel kind of sorry for him. I don't know if he drank the Kool-Aid, or simply never experienced the sound of a good carved archtop guitar, but the poor guy doesn't know what he's missing.

I'm sure he's really broken up about it in between gigs with Chris Potter and Nate Smith...

**John A.** · 06-04-2019, 12:00 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Plenty of great players have played a 335 but there’s this thing going around that contemporary players have to play a 335... it’s wearing off a bit now and all the kids want to sound like Pasquale and play a Trenier anyway.

Yeah, it's terrible this thing going around of people playing the guitars they like for reasons they find completely valid. Shame on them. It really is tragic that John Hart, Dave Stryker, Steve Kahn, Pete McCann, Adam Rogers, Ben Monder, John Scofield (despite having Christian's permission), and who knows how many others all fail to grasp that it's Christian's world and he just lets us use it. Oh, the humanity!

John

**Hammertone** · 06-04-2019, 12:08 PM

Ahh, commerce. When I asked Ed Bickert about why he used his tele instead a lovely carved archtop guitar, he said "because it's easier." Ed viewed his guitar playing as a job. It certainly makes things easier. In Ed's case, the Tele didn't even require a case. Most convenient. However, I'm not speaking of expediency, or practicality, but of what happens after all the dime-dancing is through, and the salubrious effects of great tone on one's soul.

**gitman** · 06-04-2019, 12:33 PM

" ....the salubrious effects of great tone on one's soul." Love that !!!!

**Stringswinger** · 06-04-2019, 01:06 PM

My preference is a 175 with flats. I am sure a few guys would want a moratorium on that....

**Tal_175** · 06-04-2019, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by Stringswinger

My preference is a 175 with flats. I am sure a few guys would want a moratorium on that....

Unfortunately Gibson already called a moratorium on them in 2017.

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 01:18 PM

Originally Posted by John A.

John Scofield (despite having Christian's permission)

I did not give Sco permission. I just agreed to look the other way.

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Tal_175

Unfortunately Gibson already called a moratorium on them in 2017.

Squeezed out by the 335. Cuckoo in the nest.

**Greentone** · 06-04-2019, 01:25 PM

Adam Rogers' sounds good, to me. He sure does, however, sound like a guy playing a ES-335 into an amp--with little or no coloration, other than a pinch of reverb.

The 335 is such a comfortable guitar to play that Rogers may not warm up to anything else. Still, like Hammertone, I wonder how Rogers would respond if you dropped a L-5CES into his lap? Carved body archtops have an extra, woody warmth to their sound that is lacking in either a semi-acoustic or a solid-body guitar. I play all three regularly and can attest to this, firsthand.

I really enjoy playing a 335 (or clone). For jazz, however, the 335, Tele, etc., is just a convenient substitute for the real deal--i.e., a full, carved-body, archtop guitar.

**jforgan** · 06-04-2019, 01:31 PM

I've just taken up jazz after playing classical guitar for some time. I read a lot of posts here and treated myself to a Gibson ES335 which I read was good for Jazz and also for other types of music.

It's sounding great for jazz and I'm looking forward to playing the bagpipes with it when my interest in jazz wanes. I'm sure an archtop wouldn't be so flexible.

**rmpmcdermott** · 06-04-2019, 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

Adam Rogers' sounds good, to me. He sure does, however, sound like a guy playing a ES-335 into an amp--with little or no coloration, other than a pinch of reverb.

The 335 is such a comfortable guitar to play that Rogers may not warm up to anything else. Still, like Hammertone, I wonder how Rogers would respond if you dropped a L-5CES into his lap? Carved body archtops have an extra, woody warmth to their sound that is lacking in either a semi-acoustic or a solid-body guitar. I play all three regularly and can attest to this, firsthand.

I really enjoy playing a 335 (or clone). For jazz, however, the 335, Tele, etc., is just a convenient substitute for the real deal--i.e., a full, carved-body, archtop guitar.

I totally get what you're saying here, but maybe Adam isn't looking for extra, woody warmth in his guitar. Maybe he plays a 335 because that's the sound he likes. Not everyone is search for the same, singular jazz tone of the Kenny Burrell variety.

Also, I'd be pretty surprised if he'd never played an archtop before, even if just trying one out or using another player's guitar. Hell, even I've played an L-5 before and I'm a mere mortal.

**Tal_175** · 06-04-2019, 01:54 PM

I used to have an Epiphone dot. I didn't like it compared to my other guitars and sold it. Since then my only association with ES 335's is that I named my cat after BB King's 335.
In the hopes of preventing this thread from getting rained on with pet photos, I'll refrain from attaching her photo here.

**christianm77** · 06-04-2019, 02:25 PM

Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

Cos I think that the Gibson Les Paul Studio is one hell of a jazz guitar for the money, yet no-one plays them.

So....this suggests the importance of

A E S T H E T I C S

To the working 335 toting jazz noodler.

OTOH maybe there is a difference. In which case I will privately note it but pretend its not there and gaslight everyone who does notice it as being an effete corksniffer.

Just so we are clear on how this operates.

**rmpmcdermott** · 06-04-2019, 02:30 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Now, before I briefly return to chain yanking and facetiousness, here is a thing that I'm sure someone's done on the forum...

Blind comparison 335 and Les Paul (or similar solidbody) through a clean fender amp, similar strings playing jazz lines.

Cos I think that the Gibson Les Paul Studio is one hell of a jazz guitar for the money, yet no-one plays them.

So....this suggests the importance of

A E S T H E T I C S

To the working 335 toting jazz noodler.

OTOH maybe there is a difference. In which case I will privately note it but pretend its not there and gaslight everyone who does notice it as being an effete corksniffer.

Just so we are clear on how this operates.

This is my favorite post of the day, maybe of the week.