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Not realy. I want to get informations from professional jazz players about affordable acoustic archtops and their pros and cons. Just to better know what I have to look for on the German 2nd hand market. I am a beginner of jazz guitar, starting with the Mickey Baker book and who plays his first jazz standards Misty and Autumn Leaves. I am close to 54 and started playing guitar 4 years ago.
Originally Posted by christianm77
One year ago I bought a new D`Angelico EXL 1 (my blonde baby) now armored with a set of 13 gauge Pyramid Gold strings. I want an acoustic archtop, just as second jazz box and because I like the different sound. I want to use it for music like Rob is playing from the Mel Bay - master of the plecturm guitar book, but also for Swing and playing Gypsy Jazz rhythm.
I was wondering that so many guitarists on youtube have sticked a floating pickup on their LH 300, 600 and 700. My first thought was that they were unsatisfied with the pure acoustic sound after a while. Doesnt that change the acoustic tone of the guitar? What about pickups which are integrated into the bridge?
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11-28-2018 07:03 AM
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Thanks for the advise. I will contact Rob. I think I remember reading on one of his youtube video answers that he sold the guitar because it was not the perfect sound he was looking for and found it with his Elferink Excalibur acoustic guitar. Originally Posted by Jonah
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- V neck: It has nothing to do with quality or MIC vs Made in Anywhere. It is a style, any Harmony or Kay from 1940s will the very same neck. One can like it or can hate it, that is an other topic.
- Frets: It is obvious that the instrument needs a fret work which is: $100 - $150. So we should calculate with this and add to the guitar price. The fret work is necessary for both leveling and both to make the frets extra smooth. Beside of the leveling a luthier can make it also much more smoother than many $5000 factory brand, with only one hour extra work. So it is a very good deal to pay that $100 - $150 on many guitar, you will have a other level instrument, you will hear it on clearity, tone, definition, sustain.
- Review Bias: See the picture below what I clipped from the video... no comment. If all other facts are similarly "objective" then we are in trouble.
- Tone Wood: We not change that
- Build: We can not change that
- Finish: We can not change that :-(
- Electronic: We can change that, but it seems to be only optional this case
- Minor aesthetic issues: This is an instrument, not a girl... although also in case of girls we all know can we live together with minor aesthetic issues in return of ... something else.
The instruments value more like how it sounds in your hand, or with other words how it supports and motivates you to express your musical thoughts. Listening the video, it sounds pretty good for me. For the retail $500 - $600 + the luthier $100 - $150 you may have an instrument which you may love for decades, and could be better than many $1500.
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I will add also about solid and laminated stuff...
I live mostly in the world of solid wood instruments - no-one will ever think to make a lute or baroque guitar of laminated woods... not a single part)))
But at the same time there are lots of bad sounding and lutes and baroque guitars as well as good sounding... so material is by far not the only thing. And imho the influence of mateiral is often overestimated in the world of steel string acoustics or especially electric guitars.
Another thing that using these special luthier made instruments taught ne with years is that - strage enough yes - teh sound is not that important actually becasue starting from some level all the instruments have good sound (different but good), and fromn certain level players can make a good sound on different instruments...
the most important thing is the playability, geometry of the instrument, in concern of sound - a balance first of all, possibilities to get the nuances in playing (physical and sonoric possibilitoes) and to control them...
these qualities ditinguish top of the top luthiers.
Of course, it is not your case.. but I just want to say - maybe do not be much focused on the materiel and sound on youtube.. of course the tone muct please you for sure... but you can really open up a good instrument only in months of playing...
I would try loar - considering great return policy of thomann...
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Well, solid/lam, I don't care... as long as it sounds cool on the couch (like the video link of Mr. Beaumont playing the Godin above- that's fine for me), and sounds old-school when plugged in (which really just means a P90 or a CC)... I really wish I could find someplace that has both guitars so I could A/B them, but I haven't. Except mailorder, and that's a crapshoot. I could order both (Godin and Loar 309) and get a good or bad Loar.....
In the end, it's not about specs, or neck shape, or fretwork.... if a guitar with a V-neck and in need of fret polishing speaks to me over one that doesn't, I don't mind taking on the project. And vice versa, of course.
I'll admit: as gorgeous as the Godins are, I am drawn to the more vintage-correct burst of the Loar... (and as we recently learned from Billy Corgan, PAINT DOES affect tone...
)
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thomann by choice...keEp for 30 days(CHECK THE DAYS) then reTURN IF DISATISFIED..THEY EVEN PAY SHIPPING BACK..BEST COMPANY IVE EVER DEALT WITH...NOT PARTING WITH MY HARLEY BENTON NASHVILLE NYLON PLAYED THROUGH A JAZZ LTTLE BOX..
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Too hip for the room ... Originally Posted by christianm77
John
PS: What's kind of guitar does Dr. Seuss play? Why a Loar ax, of course.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 11-28-2018 at 11:18 AM.
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A floating pickup won't change the acoustic tone much, or something like christian's Krivo is removable. Originally Posted by Musgo Real
I don't think it's a matter of not being "satisfied" with the tone, I think it's to get more versatility. The classic sound of old school swing rhythm is acoustic, but the sound of lead jazz guitar (minus gypsy jazz, of course) is decidedly electric.
I've never heard a "acoustic style" pickup on an archtop that I liked (like one that fits in the bridge)
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Eastman 405e is pretty similar to the Godin Kingpin, but a bit closer visually to an ES 125. Guild A150 Savoy has more of a legit acoustic sound, looks exacly like a vintage Guild and has a good sounding DeArmond RC1000 pup (different sound from a P90, but cool/vintage in its own way). Either of those are more likely to turn up in a shop than a The Loar, so you might be able to try one. Originally Posted by ruger9
Well, solid/lam, I don't care... as long as it sounds cool on the couch (like the video link of Mr. Beaumont playing the Godin above- that's fine for me), and sounds old-school when plugged in (which really just means a P90 or a CC)... I really wish I could find someplace that has both guitars so I could A/B them, but I haven't. Except mailorder, and that's a crapshoot. I could order both (Godin and Loar 309) and get a good or bad Loar.....
In the end, it's not about specs, or neck shape, or fretwork.... if a guitar with a V-neck and in need of fret polishing speaks to me over one that doesn't, I don't mind taking on the project. And vice versa, of course.
I'll admit: as gorgeous as the Godins are, I am drawn to the more vintage-correct burst of the Loar... (and as we recently learned from Billy Corgan, PAINT DOES affect tone...)
I tried both and a Kingpin. I actually liked the sound of the Guild best, but couldn't deal with the 17" body. The Eastman has (to my hand, anyway) the best neck, but the least pleasing acoustic sound. Kingpin is Goldilocks. The quality of its acoustic sound is excellent, but quiet, which suits my needs. The pickup sounds great.
I've also tried a few ES 125's, and I'd prefer one (with a 1 11/16" nut) to any of the above, but they've gotten too expensive for me to consider.
John
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Godin unplugged for measure.
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When I was choosing Godin a few years ago I tried both acoustic and Kingpin.
Acoustic sounded batter unplugged - maybe becasue of the unloaded top, maybe becasue of the bronze strings
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I did experiment with bronze strings on my Kingpin, and yeah, it did improve the acoustic output, mostly in volume, really. Obviously though, I really couldn't get the pickup balanced well, so I went back to nickel wounds. I have Monels on there now, a pretty good compromise...
It's been years since I've run across an all acoustic 5th avenue...but I THINK (big emphasis on think) that the bronze on the Kingpin was pretty similar in sound. I don't think the P90 is too invasive...anybody ever checked? I was told just one small hole for the wire, and of course, the two screws...
EDIT: Here's the hole for the bridge pup on a Kingpin CWII...
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Your Höfner is a real beauty. I am jealous. Originally Posted by Jehu
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Bridge piezo pickups tend to sound very bright. Originally Posted by Musgo Real
Not realy. I want to get informations from professional jazz players about affordable acoustic archtops and their pros and cons. Just to better know what I have to look for on the German 2nd hand market. I am a beginner of jazz guitar, starting with the Mickey Baker book and who plays his first jazz standards Misty and Autumn Leaves. I am close to 54 and started playing guitar 4 years ago. One year ago I bought a new D`Angelico EXL 1 (my blonde baby) now armored with a set of 13 gauge Pyramid Gold strings. I want an acoustic archtop, just as second jazz box and because I like the different sound. I want to use it for music like Rob is playing from the Mel Bay - master of the plecturm guitar book, but also for Swing and playing Gypsy Jazz rhythm.
I was wondering that so many guitarists on youtube have sticked a floating pickup on their LH 300, 600 and 700. My first thought was that they were unsatisfied with the pure acoustic sound after a while. Doesnt that change the acoustic tone of the guitar? What about pickups which are integrated into the bridge?
There’s not really a good way to amplify this guitars acoustic tone beyond micing it, which is fine for gigs when you have a sound engineer.
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It's a very nice guitar but I did not like acoustic tone despite the solid top...uild A150 Savoy has more of a legit acoustic sound, looks exacly like a vintage Guild and has a good sounding DeArmond RC1000 pup (different sound from a P90, but cool/vintage in its own way).
I think it's the case when solid top does not make much sense... it's funny but Epi Broadway I had at the moment all plywood with 2 humbuckers and 4 knobs installed had much better acoustic tone... probably it's something with the construction..
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But it's not only the whole that affects - was it closely put on the top or was there some space between the pickup and the tone...? I mean that if it's right on the top it is a damper... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I did experiment with bronze strings on my Kingpin, and yeah, it did improve the acoustic output, mostly in volume, really. Obviously though, I really couldn't get the pickup balanced well, so I went back to nickel wounds. I have Monels on there now, a pretty good compromise...
It's been years since I've run across an all acoustic 5th avenue...but I THINK (big emphasis on think) that the bronze on the Kingpin was pretty similar in sound. I don't think the P90 is too invasive...anybody ever checked? I was told just one small hole for the wire, and of course, the two screws...
EDIT: Here's the hole for the bridge pup on a Kingpin CWII...
THe degree of it depends on the guitar of course... probably less noticeable with plywood than with solid tops but also the overall construction is important
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I recently received an LH-700 and was both thoroughly impressed, and slightly disappointed.
The guitar is BEAUTIFUL, however, on closer examination it did exhibit some of the QC issues others have mentioned.
I took it almost immediately to my luthier for a check over and set up. The fret ends were not dressed super nicely, and they would catch now and again... a couple frets were bad enough that if you slipped the high E off the fretboard, it would catch on the fret. There were also a couple of frets that did not appear to be completely seated, but not problematic... seating them completely would have necessitated levelling the frets, so we chose to leave them as is; I can't recall 100% but I think he said he filled the slight gaps with a little glue. There were also a couple frets that seemed to exhibit "bruising" - it looked like they had been worked on with something other than a fret hammer.
As has been mentioned in previous reviews, the finish around the fingerboard extension is a bit rough, but not something that is visible without actively looking for it. Finally, the finish on the inside of the f-hole on the lower bout has been rubbing off... it's like it wasn't properly clear coated in that one spot...
Anyway, I was pretty aware of the common issues, and feel that I wasn't blind sided by anything. After my Luthier gave it the once over, it is definitely a great playing and sounding guitar. A common complaint has been many reports of shallow neck angles... fortunately mine seems to be pretty good, which was a relief to me. The other major unknown for me was the neck profile, and I'm happy to report that I really like the feel of the neck. Yes, it is thick but I find it plays nicely and the V is quite comfortable for me. The wood is gorgeous... I got mine through Steve Zook, and had been keeping my eyes on his videos, and have seen quite a few 700's through his videos and this was definitely one of the nicest backs I've seen. The finish also seems to be very nice and thin - the grain is easily seen through the finish.
It came with a set of fairly light bronze strings, which I swapped out with a set of TI JS 113's. I'm not quite sure that I dig them for acoustic, but I just received a DeArmond Rhythm Chief to install on it, so will see how they sound together. I may change over to BB 113's. I also have an early L5 style pick guard to install... gdmn, she's gonna be a beauty when I get her all together.
Anyway, that's my "The Loar" experience... I wanted to make sure I reported the good and the not so good to give an honest account. I am definitely happy with my purchase and intend on keeping this one around for many years. I can't speak to the 300 series guitars, but I am interested in a 309 myself... or, possibly a 300 or 600 modified to take a CC pickup for an ES-150 imposter... but that's time and money I don't have right now...
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I agree. Originally Posted by Jonah
You can see in that picture--or at least I think, that the pickup sits on the spacer, and does not contact the top. Therefore I'm thinking the damping effect is pretty minimal...and again, as you said, it's a laminate anyway...
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Yes, thanks.. I saw the spacer but jus was not sure if it really works like this or just a framing or something like that...
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I just checked my Kingpin I. There's no hole cut out of the top, just holes drilled for the mounting screws and the wire. The pickup body is nameplate is not touching the guitar top, but there's a little mark/indentation caused by one of the polepieces making contact. Originally Posted by Jonah
Between the weight of the pickup, these small holes, and the polepiece contact, I bet there's some effect on the guitar's loudness, but it's still considerably louder than a typical laminated top/set pickup guitar. I think there's some sort of secret sauce with this laminated cherry wood that makes it behave more like solid wood.
Edit: I just added a picture -- you can see the mark caused by the pole piece. Also, there are actually two sets of holes for mounting screws. One set is mis-positioned (it misaligns the pickup with the pickguard cut-out). 50 lashes with a wet noodle, Monsieur Godin.
JohnLast edited by John A.; 11-30-2018 at 12:26 AM. Reason: added a picture
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Regardless of whether it has a pickup or not, the Godin 5th Avenue is a small sounding guitar that sounds quieter IIRC than a flat-top guitar and lacks the midrange of bark of a carved archtop guitar.
Which might be what you want if you just practice in your bedroom, and don't plan to play any acoustic gigs. It's a pleasant sound, and in many ways a more practical gigging guitar than an acoustic archtop when plugged in.
But, the sheer amount of volume you can get out of a well set up Loar 600 makes it sound like a toy.
Like - you don't want to play this guitar at full whack in you bedroom because it will leave your ears ringing - let alone someone with their ear pointed at one of the f holes. On the other hand the guitar has a lot dynamic range. That's its ace in the hole really. In every other way, I think the Godins are superior.
Thing is, playing an acoustic guitar in a swing band - isn't that common, and is dependent on the acoustics, audience, whether the players you are playing with have appropriate instruments and playing styles themselves. To give you an idea, here's some videos of me playing acoustically with my Loar 600 and Altamira M01D
No drums. At this point I had a Shadow pickup on it which kind of made it about 5% quieter to my ears. It now has no pickup installed on it and I use a Djangobucker when I need to amplify.
With drums
So, in some limited settings I could play acoustic gigs with this guitar and have enough sound. I don't think I could do that with a Godin. My feeling is that the Loar 600 is most effective as rhythm guitar.
That said, I don't often play acoustic gigs these days! Too much heartache, and frustration lies that way lol.
All that said, the Godin Kingpin is beast guitar for the money, and would gig really well. I kind of want one.Last edited by christianm77; 12-01-2018 at 05:09 PM.
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Absolutely. It's nowhere near as loud as my flattop (a dreadnought that borders on too loud for the living room), with nothing remotely like the bass response. In terms of acoustic volume and character, it sounds like an old plywood Harmony/Stella/Kay plywood acoustic archtop. I think the intent was to make something like that, but with modern quality/playability, a slightly less clanky acoustic sound, and a good electric sound. It makes more sense to use that as a benchmark than some the types of guitars the Loars are aiming at. Originally Posted by christianm77
Acoustically, it's much more versatile than that. It doesn't just work as bedroom guitar. It also works in the living room and the kitchen. :-) Originally Posted by christianm77
Based on your video, for sure. Thanks for that (I hadn't heard one of these in action before like that). Originally Posted by christianm77
Yup, the Godin works very well plugged in with a group. As an acoustic guitar, it's not bad for accompanying quiet vocals that can be drowned out by louder guitars. Like this: Originally Posted by christianm77
JohnLast edited by John A.; 12-01-2018 at 08:17 PM.
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Hi OP,
I do have a Loar LH-700 and a Höfner so I think I can contribute something.
Loar
It’s a beautiful guitar with a big acoustic voice. Without wanting to diss anyone’s favorite, many of the guitars that have been mentioned as alternatives are IME nowhere close in timbre and volume (Guild Savoy, EXL-1, Epi Broadway – which I’ve had for quite sometime – or the new Epi “MAsterbilt”).
Note: when I bought it mine had on Gally black nylons, if you can believe it, and some of those who posted very critical comments had put flatwounds on. If you want a big acoustic voice, you have to put on the right strings. With Monel 12s, mine sings loud enough to play acoustically in small ensembles.
It does have a big, V-shape neck. It’s not to everyone’s tastes. To me, it’s ideal for playing “Freddy Green” grips and chord melody of the era.
Quality-wise: good woods, good neck-angle, it needed a 30€ fret level and I am utterly unconcerned with how the paint looks under the fretboard extension or whether the F-holes are bound
. Once it’s set-up well (and EVERY guitar needs a set-up) it plays and sounds great.
So in conclusion: it’s a very good guitar and if you want a replica of a 1920s archtop for below 1000, you basically have no alternative – a LH-700 or a LH-600 which, as far as I know, is the same guitar, just a little less ornate.
Of course “try before buy” would be ideal, but Thomann has a good return policy, so. Finding one used would be nice as well… lots of persons bought it for the wrong reasons or disliked the neck and want to get rid of it. I got mine for 500€ 1 yr ago.
Höfner
I have bought a Höfner about 2 months ago and I’d recommend you consider it, especially since you’re in Germany. If you want to do that, you have to do a bit of homework so you know what you’re looking for. There’s a lot of info on the web (guitarhq, dedicated “vintage höfner” site…). The modern Höfner company explicitly state on their website that they don’t answer on vintage models, so no surprise there at all.
I did my homework and spotted mine among many lesser ones being sold for about the same price. A 1953 model 465: carved spruce top, lam rosewood sides and back, in beautiful shape. It has a different voice from the Loar: scooped, less bark and sweeter – but in terms of volume and projection it competes.
The neck is also very different: big “D” profile, with a very round fretboard and narrow nut. Extremely comfortable to play, especially for rhythm and single note soloing… less so for chord melody due to the narrow string spacing. But all in all, a more comfortable guitar than the Loar. (BTW: I never thought I’d buy a non truss rod guitar, but the early 50s big maple neck with a metal reinforcement has withstood the test of time and is straight as an arrow).
I would recommend you look them up, and other German top-of-the-line archtops (e.g. the all-carved Hoyer Meisterklasse if you like the aesthetics, which I don’t).
DeArmonds
As Jeff pointed out, putting a floater on them has nothing to do with dissatisfaction with the acoustic voice, and everything to do with adding a beautiful jazz sound without compromising that acoustic voice. Personally, when I play in a band situation, I play rhythm acoustically (with a mic) and kick in my DeArmond when I have to solo.
I enclose a couple pics (apologies to those who’ve seen them 1000 times already) and two sound samples taken with an AudioTechnica mic into Garageband. The “Sweet georgia brown” intro is the Loar, the “Stomping at the Savoy” thing is the Höfner both acoustic and electric with a DeArmond Rhythm Chief. I have improved the electric set-up since, but I thing the two clips capture the difference in acoustic voice (and my bad playing too…).
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Thank you Christian for this answer and the videos. Originally Posted by christianm77
Both guitars are sounding great within the band. The Loar sounds more deeper than the Altamira.
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radiofm, thank your for your input and the two sound examples. The Loar sounds acousticly better for my taste. But the amplified sound of the Höfner is realy great. Love it. Originally Posted by radiofm74
Hi OP,
I do have a Loar LH-700 and a Höfner so I think I can contribute something.
Loar
It’s a beautiful guitar with a big acoustic voice. Without wanting to diss anyone’s favorite, many of the guitars that have been mentioned as alternatives are IME nowhere close in timbre and volume (Guild Savoy, EXL-1, Epi Broadway – which I’ve had for quite sometime – or the new Epi “MAsterbilt”).
Note: when I bought it mine had on Gally black nylons, if you can believe it, and some of those who posted very critical comments had put flatwounds on. If you want a big acoustic voice, you have to put on the right strings. With Monel 12s, mine sings loud enough to play acoustically in small ensembles.
It does have a big, V-shape neck. It’s not to everyone’s tastes. To me, it’s ideal for playing “Freddy Green” grips and chord melody of the era.
Quality-wise: good woods, good neck-angle, it needed a 30€ fret level and I am utterly unconcerned with how the paint looks under the fretboard extension or whether the F-holes are bound . Once it’s set-up well (and EVERY guitar needs a set-up) it plays and sounds great.
So in conclusion: it’s a very good guitar and if you want a replica of a 1920s archtop for below 1000, you basically have no alternative – a LH-700 or a LH-600 which, as far as I know, is the same guitar, just a little less ornate.
Of course “try before buy” would be ideal, but Thomann has a good return policy, so. Finding one used would be nice as well… lots of persons bought it for the wrong reasons or disliked the neck and want to get rid of it. I got mine for 500€ 1 yr ago.
Höfner
I have bought a Höfner about 2 months ago and I’d recommend you consider it, especially since you’re in Germany. If you want to do that, you have to do a bit of homework so you know what you’re looking for. There’s a lot of info on the web (guitarhq, dedicated “vintage höfner” site…). The modern Höfner company explicitly state on their website that they don’t answer on vintage models, so no surprise there at all.
I did my homework and spotted mine among many lesser ones being sold for about the same price. A 1953 model 465: carved spruce top, lam rosewood sides and back, in beautiful shape. It has a different voice from the Loar: scooped, less bark and sweeter – but in terms of volume and projection it competes.
The neck is also very different: big “D” profile, with a very round fretboard and narrow nut. Extremely comfortable to play, especially for rhythm and single note soloing… less so for chord melody due to the narrow string spacing. But all in all, a more comfortable guitar than the Loar. (BTW: I never thought I’d buy a non truss rod guitar, but the early 50s big maple neck with a metal reinforcement has withstood the test of time and is straight as an arrow).
I would recommend you look them up, and other German top-of-the-line archtops (e.g. the all-carved Hoyer Meisterklasse if you like the aesthetics, which I don’t).
DeArmonds
As Jeff pointed out, putting a floater on them has nothing to do with dissatisfaction with the acoustic voice, and everything to do with adding a beautiful jazz sound without compromising that acoustic voice. Personally, when I play in a band situation, I play rhythm acoustically (with a mic) and kick in my DeArmond when I have to solo.
I enclose a couple pics (apologies to those who’ve seen them 1000 times already) and two sound samples taken with an AudioTechnica mic into Garageband. The “Sweet georgia brown” intro is the Loar, the “Stomping at the Savoy” thing is the Höfner both acoustic and electric with a DeArmond Rhythm Chief. I have improved the electric set-up since, but I thing the two clips capture the difference in acoustic voice (and my bad playing too…).
These are two beautiful guitars, specially the Höfner. As you mentioned here in Germany there are lots of used Höfners but this company made so many different models since the 50ties, so it is hard to find the right one and also to get informations about the wood, the guitars were made of. Prizes are also very variable. You can get a Höfner starting from 200 Euro, but also have to pay around 1500 - 2000 Euro, depending on the model. I think I will give The Loar LH 600 a try....just need the money for it.
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