Bryant Trenier Guitars

[iim7V7IM7]

I think the these are actually not contradictory. The top is the primary transducer of sound from the strings via the bridge. That said, the back does play an important role in that when carved and tuned correctly, it interacts with the top in a complementary fashion (or not). This is a second order effect, albeit an important one in my view. This is why the final scraping of the "box" occurs when it is closed and bound with steel scrapers by a luthier releasing the re-curve section near the rims. It is also why wood selection, density, stiffness, tap tone and seasoning is important as well for both the top and the back. Lastly, Bob does not reveal every detail that is important in his book. It was intended as an introductory guide for people wanting to get into making an archtop vs. actually mastering it. There are MANY people making archtops using his basic methods. Not all are equal...

"For Bryant - it was pushing the boundaries of getting the back plate frequency to work in unison with the top plate. When this is done properly the guitar develops a magical responsiveness to the slightest touch. In fact , when you pluck the open strings ( with the guitar facing you) you hear the note and not the string. No one does this better than Monteleone - who is world renowned for his instruments and incredible sense of voicing the guitar. "

What you are saying may be very true, and I'm no luthier, but if I recall correctly when reading Mr. Benedetto's book years ago (Making An Archtop Guitar) it was his feeling that getting the top carve correct and properly tap-tuned was paramount to the sound and voicing of an archtop guitar, and the back and sides (with the exception of side depth) were a secondary consideration to the point that the materials (solid carved or laminate) were somewhat irrelevant. I was as surprised as anyone to read this, so I must conclude that there are many points of view as to how to contrive a great sounding archtop. I wish I could afford one of Mr. Trenier's works BTW (Or Mr. Benedetto's or Monteleone's for that matter).

[marcut]

It seems like over the past several years Bryant Trenier's already impressive luthier skills have gone to the next level along with builders like D'Angelico and D'Aquisto. I've been looking out for a Trenier and there are few on the market and they tend to be expensive and from pre-2012. It's clear that the majority of his guitars are excellent and there will always be variation between builds regardless of the year but I'm wondering if it would be better to try to buy a post-2012 vs a pre-2012. My guess is that they'll be even harder to come by and more expensive but could be worth the wait.

[QAman]

It seems like over the past several years Bryant Trenier's already impressive luthier skills have gone to the next level along with builders like D'Angelico and D'Aquisto. I've been looking out for a Trenier and there are few on the market and they tend to be expensive and from pre-2012. It's clear that the majority of his guitars are excellent and there will always be variation between builds regardless of the year but I'm wondering if it would be better to try to buy a post-2012 vs a pre-2012. My guess is that they'll be even harder to come by and more expensive but could be worth the wait.

You bring up a very good point . I would suggest trying to obtain sound clips on the 3 resale’s currently available. Determine if you are attracted to either of them , then ask the dealers about their return policy. If it feels right - negotiate a deal and go for it.

I’ve played a few early Treniers and they were excellent - and currently available at reasonable prices compared to new. Are the new ones better - I would say yes for reasons previously noted in this post.

The current builds are more refined sonically and are attracting the interest of discriminating players and collectors. This is normal with most great Luthiers - they continue to evolve / improve.

I’ve owned 3 Monteleone’s from the late 90’s and his current builds are better. But does this mean Monteleone’s from the 90’s are inferior - of course not , and if you found one it would be over 40k. I wish I had held on to one.

I wrote about Trenier guitars 4 - 5 years ago on this forum when they were 6k new , now the new prices have doubled and resale’s are in the 5-6.5 range.

Good luck with your decision.

[marcut]

Here's Bryant's latest creation. Gorgeous guitar with fantastic tone and texture. I have one of his 2009 Magnolias on layaway at archtop.com and hope to have it in my hands early December. If it sounds anything like this I'll be one lucky (and somewhat poorer) man.
I hope the FB video plays for folks.


Trenier Guitars - Aurelia #2, sound sample | Facebook

[Dennis D]

Here's Bryant's latest creation. Gorgeous guitar with fantastic tone and texture. I have one of his 2009 Magnolias on layaway at archtop.com and hope to have it in my hands early December. If it sounds anything like this I'll be one lucky (and somewhat poorer) man.
I hope the FB video plays for folks.


Trenier Guitars - Aurelia #2, sound sample | Facebook

Congrats on the Magnolia purchase. Good for you ! Hope it's all you expect and that you play it in good health for a long time.
If you can find the time to post a vid here, please do.

Thanks in advance.

[QAman]

Here's Bryant's latest creation. Gorgeous guitar with fantastic tone and texture. I have one of his 2009 Magnolias on layaway at archtop.com and hope to have it in my hands early December. If it sounds anything like this I'll be one lucky (and somewhat poorer) man.
I hope the FB video plays for folks.


Trenier Guitars - Aurelia #2, sound sample | Facebook

I listened to Aurelia #2 this morning- what a fantastic guitar. His evolving builds have this pianistic quality to the timbre. You can hear it in the Pasquale model . All of his guitars have what I would characterize as an organ like quality of sustain. He has certainly entered into the pantheon of great Archtop builders and his backlog is growing.

Im sure the 2009 Magnolia will be fantastic....wise choice. You wont loose any dollars on resale . As his backlog grows, so will the new and used prices. I played earlier Magnolias and they were terrific guitars.

Bryants guitars are becoming very desirable to collectors and high end owners of D'Aquistos - because throughout his 20 years of building he has figured out the formular and mastered the recreation of the Jimmy D' and John D' design/ sound. So a long term owner of a DA who bought 30 years ago can cash out and replace it with a comparable Trenier and pocket some good money and still enjoy a similar playing experience.

At $7500 -$15000, Bryants guitars fill a gap between his price point and a 30-60k used D'Aquisto / D'Angelico - Excel and New Yorker cutaway models - which have peaked out.

Beyond this - you are in Monteleone territory , who is arguably the greatest living Archtop luthier. Johns orders are closed- and his Archtops start at 125k. You would be amazed how fast they sell. I did not include ken Parker or Marchione, because I just dont see a market for these guitars, they are tough resales.

I will note that Chris Mirabella is building in the NY tradition - and ive played a few Crossfires that were excellent guitars, but at 18-25k asking price, you are entering into the used non-cut D'Angelico market, and some refin cutaways, most of which have wear and tear and prior repair issues, common with most vintage guitars.

There appears to be shift away from "vintage" towards "new". The shrinking availability of competent repair luthiers has created lengthy backlogs and todays culture just cannot tolerate waiting ........especially for a repair.

I think rpguitar said it so poignantly " People know what they like, and like what they know".....ie DAqusitos and DAngelicos, are well known and not a radical departure.

Even though the market is saturated with Archtops , there is still a very active buying group for these "new" high end "NY traditional based designs" , unlike the major price contraction experienced by the " Benedetto Clone " builders.

So for all you DAQ/ DA admirers , ask yourself this...... if you could go back to Kenmare street or Greenport NY, and buy that playing experience for prices noted above ( which are merely inflation adjusted dollars) - would you ?

If the answer is yes, then buy a Trenier......period.


Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

[marcut]

Thanks Q for another thoughtful and thorough reply. After listening to a couple of Bryant's latest guitars and reading your observations about the evolution of his craft over the past couple of years I'm very tempted to put down a deposit on a build but that's really not feasible at the present time. If I ever end up in divorce court because my wife has found out how much I'm spending on guitars I hope you would be willing to testify as part of my defense Q (but he said "So for all you DAQ/ DA admirers , ask yourself this...... if you could go back to Kenmare street or Greenport NY, and buy that playing experience for prices noted above ( which are merely inflation adjusted dollars) - would you ? If the answer is yes, then buy a Trenier......period." your honor).

[helios]

I cannot help but think that people can become a prisoner of their own viewpoints (and perhaps I am no different). If one can erase the glamour of perspective, perhaps there is substance in the "ordinary".
Mr. Holst, for example, has the laminate plate theory down IMHO minus the exorbitant cost.
And my mother, for example, a simple office worker. Was she not as pretty as a movie star? So much is centered on one's view!

[Stringswinger]

Steve, you make a great case for the Trenier guitars. And your opinion on archtops means more to me than anyone else on this forum. You know your stuff like nobody's business. Lucky for me, my acoustic archtop needs are already met by my three genuine DA's (all non-cut, but that works fine for me). If my acoustic archtop needs were not already met, I would probably be buying a Trenier before any other current builder. That said, Buscarino and Borys would also get my consideration.

[QAman]

Thanks Q for another thoughtful and thorough reply. After listening to a couple of Bryant's latest guitars and reading your observations about the evolution of his craft over the past couple of years I'm very tempted to put down a deposit on a build but that's really not feasible at the present time. If I ever end up in divorce court because my wife has found out how much I'm spending on guitars I hope you would be willing to testify as part of my defense Q (but he said "So for all you DAQ/ DA admirers , ask yourself this...... if you could go back to Kenmare street or Greenport NY, and buy that playing experience for prices noted above ( which are merely inflation adjusted dollars) - would you ? If the answer is yes, then buy a Trenier......period." your honor).

Of course no one should get in trouble with their spouse over a guitar purchase - but I’m sure most of us had at times.

These are significant allocations of dollars - and selfishly serve our own appetite , and GAS can be problematic. But it’s amazing what ones will and determination can accomplish if persistently steadfast to the goal . Especially when it comes to rationalizing another guitar purchase.

There are many great, great guitars on the market right now ( that will not require a second mortgage) that sound and play fantastic . Helios makes a great point about his Holst, ( and our bias and perception ) which I have not had the pleasure of playing. It looks like a beautifully built guitar with very nice proportions and forum member disclaimer also speaks very highly of his experience with Holst.

My viewpoints are merely based on me having the opportunity and experience of playing (what many perceive as the best sounding acoustic Archtops made) , and are just meant to be helpful to those with the same passion.

[Stringswinger]

Good save. You may have dodged a future subpoena

[QAman]

Steve, you make a great case for the Trenier guitars. And your opinion on archtops means more to me than anyone else on this forum. You know your stuff like nobody's business. Lucky for me, my acoustic archtop needs are already met by my three genuine DA's (all non-cut, but that works fine for me). If my acoustic archtop needs were not already met, I would probably be buying a Trenier before any other current builder. That said, Buscarino and Borys would also get my consideration.

SS,
Thanks for the kind words. I also admire your opinions greatly . You have vast experience from a professional players standpoint - and own some of John D ‘s best period builds. It’s also nice to have an attorney as a friend .
I also agree that John Buscarino would be a great choice - anything post 2000 in my opinion were the better instruments. The earlier ones were too thick on the plates and acoustically uninspiring. I previously owned three Buscarinos.
Roger Borys needs no introduction. His association with Jim DAquisto and his ability to produce one of the best laminate professional jazz guitars ( B120) on the market speaks for itself . His guitars are a pros choice and his backlog remains booked. At 5k it’s hard to beat the Borys B120- I own one and it’s fantastic. He doesn’t offer much communication during the build process - but it’s worth waiting for. In fact - Larry Wexer just loves my Borys.
Great feedback SS!

[Jabberwocky]

I...
And my mother, for example, a simple office worker. Was she not as pretty as a movie star? So much is centered on one's view!

Looks like George Hurrell lit your mom!

[Papawooly]

Here's Bryant's latest creation. Gorgeous guitar with fantastic tone and texture. I have one of his 2009 Magnolias on layaway at archtop.com and hope to have it in my hands early December. If it sounds anything like this I'll be one lucky (and somewhat poorer) man.
I hope the FB video plays for folks.


Trenier Guitars - Aurelia #2, sound sample | Facebook

Marcut,

Looks like you have my Magnolia's little baby brother (my S/N is 1052, looks like yours is 1053).
Yours is setup for the floater, where mine has some fretboard fancyness instead... I have been
re-evaluating all of my setups to compete with how well my Grimes plays, and I now have the
Magnolia into a territory where playabillity and tone are maximized.

My all-wood Magnolia sounds (like Qaman says) very pianistic, with tons of sustain.

Playing this guitar is a very satisfying experience. You will LOVE your TRENIER!!

[deacon Mark]

[QUOTE=QAman;911644]Of course no one should get in trouble with their spouse over a guitar purchase - but I’m sure most of us had at times.

These are significant allocations of dollars - and selfishly serve our own appetite , and GAS can be problematic. But it’s amazing what ones will and determination can accomplish if persistently steadfast to the goal . Especially when it comes to rationalizing another guitar purchase.

There are many great, great guitars on the market right now ( that will not require a second mortgage) that sound and play fantastic . Helios makes a great point about his Holst, ( and our bias and perception ) which I have not had the pleasure of playing. It looks like a beautifully built guitar with very nice proportions and forum member disclaimer also speaks very highly of his experience with Holst.

My viewpoints are merely based on me having the opportunity and experience of playing (what many perceive as the best sounding acoustic Archtops made) , and are just meant to be helpful to those with the same passion.[/QUOTE

Steve, i share the passion your insights are most beneficial. So much so that they probably effect the market for high end acoustic archtops. What i find interesting is the used market of high end archtops and how much price varies and demand. I do not want to mention names but easily studying the prices seemingly well known makers have guitars with low resale in the used market. They sit and do not move and you just wonder why?

Then looking back 20-30 years things can change drastically. I remember distinctly in the early 1980’s a noncut D’Angelico was just another guitar nice but very slow mover. Caused me great joy because I picked up a noncut New Yorker I coukd manage that and the person needed to move the guitar. So today I seem like I might have been savey right?

Not at all. I just had a passion for the guitars and zero interest in what future would turn out on the guitar or resale. I just wanted one and I was in college maybe 19 or 20 years old. What did I know? You are correct, lots of choices in archtops now and play the one that inspires you. In all of this it is the personalies and folks of those around these guitars that have been a treasure.

[iim7V7IM7]

For context, I have a Trenier archtop on order for delivery next April that I am very much looking forward to.

I also own a number of guitars made for me by both John Buscarino and Bill Comins. I have had the pleasure of auditioning archtops by luthiers Steve Andersen, Mark Campellone, Steve Grimes, Linda Manzer, Cris Mirabella, Bill Moll, John Monteleone, Ken Parker, Tom Ribbecke, Erich Solomon, Bryant Trenier and Dale Unger at luthier exhibitions over the years. All make fine instruments at differing price points and focused at differing clients (from working musicians to hobbyists).

I think it’s fair to say that all luthiers ALL go through different developmental stages in their work. This includes the very best (insert famous name here). Lutherie is inherently a continual journey, shaped by enlightened empiricism through a builder’s talent and years at the bench. A guitar made by a luthier earlier in their career is unlikely to reflect what is currently coming off their bench. For example, Bryant has been building >20 years, John has been building >40 years and Bill >25 years now. All of their guitars have evolved across the decades.

The good news is that there are a number of talented archtop luthiers out there building superlative instruments!

Perceptions of tone, aesthetics and ergonomics tend to be somewhat divergent as are playing situations both of which can influence player’s preference. I would also say that the resale value of a luthier’s archtop guitars are driven by complex market factors that are quite divorced the inherent quality of the instrument. While this is a purchasing consideration for some, it is an irrational tide with ebbs and flows based on perception, marketing, and supply and demand. This is also true in the classical and flat top markets as well.

We are fortunate to live in a time where we have a wealth of fantastic options…

My $.02

[helios]

Looks like George Hurrell lit your mom!

My mother worked at CBS studios in Hollywood when the photo was taken in the 1940's! Next time I go back to Connecticut, I'll look at the original in the frame an see if the studio's ID on it!
Thanks, Jabber!!!

[QAman]

Not at all. I just had a passion for the guitars and zero interest in what future would turn out on the guitar or resale. I just wanted one and I was in college maybe 19 or 20 years old. What did I know? You are correct, lots of choices in archtops now and play the one that inspires you. In all of this it is the personalies and folks of those around these guitars that have been a treasure.[/QUOTE]

DM,
Well said. It all boils down to our passion with these fascinating instruments that are available to us - and the sharing of experiences and friendships that surround this forum.
You were smart to get that DA - you liked it and bought it. I’m sure you’ve had great pleasure playing it over the years , and have had the chance to compare it to other builds along the way to realize just how good a DA really is.
I do get excited when we have builders like Bryant who have immersed himself in recreating the magic of DAQ/DA. We live in a great time when it comes to choice with Archtop guitars.
In fairness and respect to other input in this post , there are many great builders to choose from today who make superlative instruments.
My suggestion to everyone, is go to guitar shows and places like Rudy’s , Lark Street, or Gruhns etc. - if you can , and sample these great instruments. It’s the only way to really understand their sonic capabilities and the decades of excitement surrounding these fine instruments.

[QAman]

For context, I have a Trenier archtop on order for delivery next April that I am very much looking forward to.

I also own a number of guitars made for me by both John Buscarino and Bill Comins. I have had the pleasure of auditioning archtops by luthiers Steve Andersen, Mark Campellone, Steve Grimes, Linda Manzer, Cris Mirabella, Bill Moll, John Monteleone, Ken Parker, Tom Ribbecke, Erich Solomon, Bryant Trenier and Dale Unger at luthier exhibitions over the years. All make fine instruments at differing price points and focused at differing clients (from working musicians to hobbyists).

I think it’s fair to say that all luthiers ALL go through different developmental stages in their work. This includes the very best (insert famous name here). Lutherie is inherently a continual journey, shaped by enlightened empiricism through a builder’s talent and years at the bench. A guitar made by a luthier earlier in their career is unlikely to reflect what is currently coming off their bench. For example, Bryant has been building >20 years, John has been building >40 years and Bill >25 years now. All of their guitars have evolved across the decades.

The good news is that there are a number of talented archtop luthiers out there building superlative instruments!

Perceptions of tone, aesthetics and ergonomics tend to be somewhat divergent as are playing situations both of which can influence player’s preference. I would also say that the resale value of a luthier’s archtop guitars are driven by complex market factors that are quite divorced the inherent quality of the instrument. While this is a purchasing consideration for some, it is an irrational tide with ebbs and flows based on perception, marketing, and supply and demand. This is also true in the classical and flat top markets as well.

We are fortunate to live in a time where we have a wealth of fantastic options…

My $.02

iim7V7IM7
Excellent perspective and viewpoints . Especially when it comes to the learned knowledge these great builders acquire after many years of tweaking in things like carving, bracing, tap tuning , understanding interaction of various wood choices etc.

It’s what Dr Deming described as “profound knowledge” - and continuous improvement.

I remember Bryant telling me he scrapped 3 guitars many , many moons ago trying to carve the body like Jimmy D, but even like Jimmy , it took years to develop the feel and sensitivity to accomplish that task. Jimmy use to say “ this is where you can ruin the guitar “. But it’s also where the magic takes place.

[marcut]

Thanks Papawooly for the encouraging words about the Magnolia. I had a Skype session with Joe at archtop.com and the sound/tone, even via Skype, blew me away and sealed the deal. I actually called Gryphon about yours when they had it for sale and asked about the possibility of trading a couple of my guitars towards the purchase of the Trenier but it was a commission sale so it didn't work out. I was trying to carve some time out to head over to Palo Alto (I'm near Berkeley) but you snatched it up before I could get over there. I read your follow up posts and it sounds like a great guitar (I've also heard it on Kamlapati's YT channel). I've sent a couple of my guitars up to Joe v in Seattle and am hoping they'll sell soon to help with the purchase of the Magnolia and I'll post an NGD when I get it in December.

[Mirabella]

Thank you for including me and my Guitars in this conversation .

While the Crossfire Deluxe and Crossfire New Yorker model do range from 18,500.00 to 20,000.00, there are actually Mirabella chambered models that start at $6500.00, laminated models at $7500.00 to $8500.00 and the base price of fully carved acoustic Jazz Classic, Moderne, and Oval Holes start at $12,500.00.
Thank you to all interested in my work and instruments. I greatly appreciate the support.

Below is a link of player Jimmy Brewer playing one of the Crossfire Deluxes Steve (Qman) mentioned in his post.

All the best, CM

[Mirabella]

"I will note that Chris Mirabella is building in the NY tradition - and ive played a few Crossfires that were excellent guitars, but at 18-25k asking price" QAman

Thank you for including me and my Guitars in this conversation .

While the Crossfire Deluxe and Crossfire New Yorker model do range from 18,500.00 to 20,000.00, there are actually Mirabella chambered models that start at $6500.00, laminated models at $7500.00 to $8500.00 and the base price of fully carved acoustic Jazz Classic, Moderne, and Oval Holes start at $12,500.00.
Thank you to all interested in my work and instruments. I greatly appreciate the support.

Below is a link of player Jimmy Brewer playing one of the Crossfire Deluxes Steve (Qman) mentioned in his post.

All the best, CM

[sgcim]

"I will note that Chris Mirabella is building in the NY tradition - and ive played a few Crossfires that were excellent guitars, but at 18-25k asking price" QAman

Thank you for including me and my Guitars in this conversation .

While the Crossfire Deluxe and Crossfire New Yorker model do range from 18,500.00 to 20,000.00, there are actually Mirabella chambered models that start at $6500.00, laminated models at $7500.00 to $8500.00 and the base price of fully carved acoustic Jazz Classic, Moderne, and Oval Holes start at $12,500.00.
Thank you to all interested in my work and instruments. I greatly appreciate the support.

Below is a link of player Jimmy Brewer playing one of the Crossfire Deluxes Steve (Qman) mentioned in his post.

All the best, CM

Cris makes some of the finest fully carved acoustic archtops on the planet. I played a friend's Oval Hole guitar recently, and couldn't stop playing for 30 minutes! Here
s a pic he sent me:

[Jazz for me]

Since you are getting the Trenier archtop this April 2019, would you consider letting go of the Comins? If so, I'd be interested in buying it from you?
Regards
Bob

[iim7V7IM7]

No, I am not interested in letting it go at this time.

I actually own two 16” Comins archtops (a Zelig and a Classic) but I assume that you mean my “Classic” (right). Bryant is building me a larger 16-1/2” or 17” instrument which is larger than my archtops by Bill. While I anticipate loving the new guitar, one needs to live with an instrument for some time before truly knowing that. I KNOW that I love both guitars that Bill made for me.

Since you are getting the Trenier archtop this April 2019, would you consider letting go of the Comins? If so, I'd be interested in buying it from you?
Regards
Bob