Need advice on crunch effects

[rice_burner2000]

Sorry in advance, this is long. I’ve been playing a clean jazz guitar sound in bands for many years. I know what I’m after with a clean warm jazz sound. Recently I joined a new band (with great musicians) that is pushing my old boundaries. Admittedly I don’t know what I am doing in terms of creating a good distorted tone. So far I’m not happy with my distorted tone. Now I need a versatile setup that does both clean/warm and crunchy/semi distortion. Example, I may start out playing clean chords, then take a solo that needs to be a little distorted. Can anyone help me get there?
Gear I intend to use:
-Guild M75 with P-90s (alternate is El Rey ER2 with humbuckers)
-Amp is a clean Polytone Mega Brute. I’m not a fan of tube amps although I have a Blues Junior but find it brash and grating.
-Effects-I generally run simple reverb/delay effects in-line (via Zoom G3 or a couple Boss pedals). Hope to keep my setup relatively efficient.
Questions: What are the advantages of using an effects loop-I think it bypasses the pre-amp? Would it make sense to put crunchy effects in the loop (so I can turn them on or off) then keep the clean/warm sound with reverb direct input into the amp (bypass the loop)? Any suggested effect/pedal order? Again, I’m hoping to be able to click the distortion mode on & off, and retain a clean jazz sound when it is off. Is this sound setup even possible with one guitar & amp?
Appreciate the advice.

[D.G.]

Distortion/overdrive pedals typically do not work well in the loop. I'm not terribly familiar with the amp you have, being a tube amp guy, but in my experience, many solid state amps do not reproduce distortion very well. But, there are a lot of dirt boxes on the market and something out there would probably work. Do you have an example of the kind of distorted tone you are looking for?

[BeanSinger]

I had this same issue recently. I tried putting an OCD pedal in the loop and it didn't sound right at all. Between the guitar and the amp - it is fantastic.

[rice_burner2000]

Distortion/overdrive pedals typically do not work well in the loop. I'm not terribly familiar with the amp you have, being a tube amp guy, but in my experience, many solid state amps do not reproduce distortion very well. But, there are a lot of dirt boxes on the market and something out there would probably work. Do you have an example of the kind of distorted tone you are looking for?

Thanks for your comments. I’ve found the effects loop pretty useless so far, but might be doing something wrong. I am looking for a sound more like the first few minutes of this clip.

I use neck p/u about 80%. Never use the bridge p/u alone but in combo with neck.


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[rice_burner2000]

I had this same issue recently. I tried putting an OCD pedal in the loop and it didn't sound right at all. Between the guitar and the amp - it is fantastic.

Agree. The best crunch sound to my ears I’ve created by putting guitar into an OCD pedal then the OCD pedal into my ZoomG3 for reverb, then into the amp input. Pedal order does seem to matter. Also keeping the amps preamp in the mix sounds better to me. I am confused about when to use the effect loop.


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[rpjazzguitar]

Thanks for your comments. I’ve found the effects loop pretty useless so far, but might be doing something wrong. I am looking for a sound more like the first few minutes of this clip.

I use neck p/u about 80%. Never use the bridge p/u alone but in combo with neck.


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I use the Boss ME80 for more or less the same thing. Lots of options for creating a distorted tone. Decent reverb.

That said, I'd still suggest a return privilege. I've never gotten a distorted sound I love. I strongly suspect it's possible but I'm not there yet. I rarely need it, so I haven't worked on it that much. I have one that is adequate.

[rice_burner2000]

I use the Boss ME80 for more or less the same thing. Lots of options for creating a distorted tone. Decent reverb.

That said, I'd still suggest a return privilege. I've never gotten a distorted sound I love. I strongly suspect it's possible but I'm not there yet. I rarely need it, so I haven't worked on it that much. I have one that is adequate.

I think I’m looking for adequate as well because my desired sound is warm and clean. But I appreciate the mildly distorted sound so want to borrow it once in a while. Then to get used to playing it. Because I’m only using it occasionally in, 1 band. So being able to turn it off is equally important. So far I’m leaning toward no loop, keeping everything in line straight into the amp input.


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[BComp61]

Typically you'd run your time based or modulation effects into the FX loop and your dirt pedals into the front of the amp. Might take some creative pedal arrangement and running of cables off your pedal board though.

[D.G.]

It’s still amp dependent, but something like an OCD or an Xotic BB Preamp ought to do the trick. Definitely NOT through the loop

[rio]

I’ve used a Zoom G2.1 for a number of years through a Polytone. That is not my current setup as I didn’t like the sounds I got from the Zoom but I am picky and there are some that are certainly passable. Since I have gotten the BB Preamp mentioned above and it is a great pedal, able to be used with the smallest amount of overdrive to a full overdrive similar to (but better than, to me) a tube screamer. Another great option which is also very cheap is the Joyo ACtone, which is a Vox emulator pedal. It was surprisingly good and I use it often, similarly to the BB it can go from just a little overdrive to heavy and it is natural sounding. If I had found that first I might have stuck with that and passed on the BBpreamp because I really like it but now I alternated depending on what I want since they are slightly different.

Another recent option I have used if I don’t want to bring pedals and need overdrive for a gig (and other effects like in musicals) is the Fender Mustang GT100. It is pretty polarizing from what I’ve read but I absolutely love it. It’s amazing how many options you have to work with and it will do pretty much anything I need it to, with the advantage of have several great amp sounds for straight ahead jazz. That would replace your Polytone of course since it is another amp.

If the Zoom G3 is anything like the 2.1 then you will probably get the results you want elsewhere. One thing it didn’t do well at all was a slight breakup sound. I could get a decent heavy distortion for musicals that had distorted leads but I couldn’t set it up to give me an overdrive that sounded natural or had any nuance to it. It is an older pedal so I just assumed the tech was not there yet.

The Polytone will also color the sound and might not get you exactly the sound you want. They are distinctive and great jazz amps. I have used mine in musicals and in that context it sounded fine with effects. If I were recording though I wouldn’t want to go with that since there are better amps to handle some effects. I thought it took overdrive pretty well but now I would just run one of the pedals through my Bud or use the Mustang GT.


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[Frank67]

With a clean amp, there is no need to use an effects loop. Everything goes in front just fine, dirt pedals first, then modulation and time based effects (typically that is).

Not sure what will work with your polytone. It is a mid heavy amp and hence a dirt pedal that pushes the mids even more (like a Tube Screamer or a Rat) may sound overly boxy. However, what sounds good in the bedroom may not sound good in a band setting, where the emphasis is on the mid frequencies. Typically, more mids less bass sounds good with a band.

With the Guild you also don‘t want to use too much gain because otherwise there will be feedback and noise.

I would probably try a light, full range overdrive and not invest too much before you know what you like. A boss blues driver (BD-2) or the Keeley version (Super Phat Mod) are nice. The Mooer version (Blues Mood) is dirt cheap and quit nice too (as is the the Mooer Blues Crab). Also good is the TC electronics MojoMojo overdrive (50$ these days) for these light overdriven sounds that just add a bit of gain and compression.

You may want to experiment with a compressor before or after dirt and/or a bit of delay after (any will do). There is no limit to sound sculpting and no universal rules.

I don‘t have much experience with solid state amps since I basically only play tube amps that, as conventional wisdom speculates, take dirt pedals better, but I see no reason why one shouldn‘t get a nice sound with a Polytone.

Good luck!

[Ray175]

Thanks for your comments. I’ve found the effects loop pretty useless so far, but might be doing something wrong. I am looking for a sound more like the first few minutes of this clip.

I use neck p/u about 80%. Never use the bridge p/u alone but in combo with neck.


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An original 1970s MXR distortion+ (script logo) will get you there. This was the first pedal I ever bought and gave amazing control over the degree of crunch. Much less fizzy/tinny than the current version.
I used it with a 1959 ES175D into a solid state Carlsboro Super Stingray solid state amp which (was very clean sounding) for a good few years. They come up regularly on e-bay.

[bluefonia]

Have a look at something like the Voodo Labs SparkleDrive.
Besides having a basic good sound, it also has both a tone- and a blend control. In my view these are both very important features - if it is the only or first dirt pedal in the setup.
Many - if not most - drive pedals tend to color your sound. Maybe that is what you want, but a tone control gives you much more flexibility and the ability to get the same tonecolor on both the clean and driven tone. With the blend control you can mix your clean- and overdriven tone to taste. These two features are very important imo.
There is probably more brands out there with these features, the SparkleDrive is just what I know of.

Another great option is the Xotic EP Booster. It is not a dirt/drive pedal as such, but is great for pushing your amp to the edge of break up which adds some harmonics and warmth to your tone . It is a subtle effect - can be set to a more agressive effect if wanted - and can be a very good buddy to the SparkleDrive.

[rice_burner2000]

I’ve used a Zoom G2.1 for a number of years through a Polytone. That is not my current setup as I didn’t like the sounds I got from the Zoom but I am picky and there are some that are certainly passable. Since I have gotten the BB Preamp mentioned above and it is a great pedal, able to be used with the smallest amount of overdrive to a full overdrive similar to (but better than, to me) a tube screamer. Another great option which is also very cheap is the Joyo ACtone, which is a Vox emulator pedal. It was surprisingly good and I use it often, similarly to the BB it can go from just a little overdrive to heavy and it is natural sounding. If I had found that first I might have stuck with that and passed on the BBpreamp because I really like it but now I alternated depending on what I want since they are slightly different.

Another recent option I have used if I don’t want to bring pedals and need overdrive for a gig (and other effects like in musicals) is the Fender Mustang GT100. It is pretty polarizing from what I’ve read but I absolutely love it. It’s amazing how many options you have to work with and it will do pretty much anything I need it to, with the advantage of have several great amp sounds for straight ahead jazz. That would replace your Polytone of course since it is another amp.

If the Zoom G3 is anything like the 2.1 then you will probably get the results you want elsewhere. One thing it didn’t do well at all was a slight breakup sound. I could get a decent heavy distortion for musicals that had distorted leads but I couldn’t set it up to give me an overdrive that sounded natural or had any nuance to it. It is an older pedal so I just assumed the tech was not there yet.

The Polytone will also color the sound and might not get you exactly the sound you want. They are distinctive and great jazz amps. I have used mine in musicals and in that context it sounded fine with effects. If I were recording though I wouldn’t want to go with that since there are better amps to handle some effects. I thought it took overdrive pretty well but now I would just run one of the pedals through my Bud or use the Mustang GT.


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Agree with you on the Zoom pedal, it seems to do mid & heavy distortion well, but not light. I’m going to start testing combinations with my OCD pedal, and possibly try a few others without breaking the bank. Thanks all for the input.


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[rice_burner2000]

Have a look at something like the Voodo Labs SparkleDrive.
Besides having a basic good sound, it also has both a tone- and a blend control. In my view these are both very important features - if it is the only or first dirt pedal in the setup.
Many - if not most - drive pedals tend to color your sound. Maybe that is what you want, but a tone control gives you much more flexibility and the ability to get the same tonecolor on both the clean and driven tone. With the blend control you can mix your clean- and overdriven tone to taste. These two features are very important imo.
There is probably more brands out there with these features, the SparkleDrive is just what I know of.

Another great option is the Xotic EP Booster. It is not a dirt/drive pedal as such, but is great for pushing your amp to the edge of break up which adds some harmonics and warmth to your tone . It is a subtle effect - can be set to a more agressive effect if wanted - and can be a very good buddy to the SparkleDrive.

Don’t think I want my dirt pedal to color the tone, I’m still figuring this out. One of my hang ups is a pedal that pushes treble too much. So tone control is important to me. I’m not familiar with the sparkle drive but will check one out.


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[whiskey02]

Only advice I would offer is whatever stomp box you get, use it sparingly. It takes very little "dirt" to sound warm, and just a little bit more, to sound like a stomp box instead of your guitar and amp.
How are you setting the volume controls on your amp and guitar? I found for myself that rather than adding OD I'm often happy with setting the amp volume at 2 or 3 o'clock, then with guitar volume at zero, slowly roll it up to the volume you want. Also, even with SS amps, you can use a clean boost to add girth/fatness, it just "lifts" the sound without really distorting the tone, even when set to the same volume as without it. This may be enough to get you where you want to be just because from your post, you sound quite a bit like me describing tone!
Another suggestion is that if you have a friend who is more of a rocker, plays in a cover band, buy a six pack and ask them to come over and get some hands on advice. Getting the best sound out of a pedal is not always the most intuitive thing; you can't always keep your guitar and amp settings as you routinely do, then just manipulate the pedal(s) and get just what you're after. It can all become very interactive - a pedal may be able to give you just what you want, but it adds midrange boost, so if you don't turn the mids down on your amp it's not going to give you what you want. There is some art to using stomp boxes and this is even more true if you're using multiple pedals.
Good luck.

[jorgemg1984]

Overdrive, Delay, Reverb, Amp input. The G3N has much better overdrives than the G3, but there's a lot of good pedals out there too. I like a Tibe Screamer with a few mods.

[Alter]

Any distortion will get you there really. Start with the ones in your Zoom G3. With your particular amp, experiment with using cab simulations if zoom has some, the distorted sounds might be better. If you end up buying a distortion pedal, try it with your gear at loud volume if possible. It might be a bit of a challenge to play distorted with the guild if your band/venues are loud

[mad dog]

That sound from the M-75 demo clip is more "edge" than crunch to my ears. Not that far into overdrive, the sort of sound you start getting a 4.5 or so on the volume knob of a deluxe reverb. A beautiful sound, that hot edge you get before heavier crunch or distortion.

Probably easier to get it on a good tube amp. I'm still figuring it out. My current jazz practice rig is not worlds away from what you describe. A Polytone mini brute II. '62 Guild X-50 archtop with the original Franz p/u. I'm usually playing at quiet volumes. Not always. To get that edge sound, I use what always works for me, with any amp. Paul Cochrane's TIM clean boost. For me it's always on, set for subtle clean boost. Gain knob at 9:00. Bass at 10:30, treble at 9:00, volume at noon. The EQ knobs are reductive, so a bit of treble rolled off, a bit more bass rolled off. Through this amp and pedal set up, the Franz sounds best with tone rolled far off, not fully off, and with volume down at the guitar.

As volume comes up at the guitar, a little of that edge begins. to get more, up the gain knob on the TIM to between 10 AM and noon.

The newer Franz repros on the M-75 are a little different. Hotter sounding, though probably no louder) than the very strong old Franz p/u on my Guild. That probably would affect pedal settings some. FWIW, I managed to get a very similar sound with this guitar and amp with a TC Electronics MojoMojo. Makes me suspect any number of low gain boosts could be used for this purpose.

[Thumpalumpacus]

Gear I intend to use:
-Guild M75 with P-90s (alternate is El Rey ER2 with humbuckers)
-Amp is a clean Polytone Mega Brute. I’m not a fan of tube amps although I have a Blues Junior but find it brash and grating.
-Effects-I generally run simple reverb/delay effects in-line (via Zoom G3 or a couple Boss pedals). Hope to keep my setup relatively efficient.
Questions: What are the advantages of using an effects loop-I think it bypasses the pre-amp? Would it make sense to put crunchy effects in the loop (so I can turn them on or off) then keep the clean/warm sound with reverb direct input into the amp (bypass the loop)? Any suggested effect/pedal order? Again, I’m hoping to be able to click the distortion mode on & off, and retain a clean jazz sound when it is off. Is this sound setup even possible with one guitar & amp?
Appreciate the advice.

1) No distortion pedals in the loop. They will amplify all the noise of the amp's gain-stages. Put your time-based effects in the loop and keep your dirtboxes ahead of the amp. Signal chain in my old rig: wah>distortion>amplifier>(fx send)chorus>delay>reverb(fx return).

Effects loops are usually after the phase inverter and before the power amp.

2) A tube amp will deliver better distortion inherently, to my ears. It takes a good pedal to get what you're going for. You can get a setup that will let you punch distortion in and out, but I can't say how a MegaBrute will take a dirtbox. Maybe you could get a GEQ pedal and dial out some of the Fender's harshness? Or, perhaps, roll some tubes.

[John A.]

An original 1970s MXR distortion+ (script logo) will get you there. This was the first pedal I ever bought and gave amazing control over the degree of crunch. Much less fizzy/tinny than the current version.
I used it with a 1959 ES175D into a solid state Carlsboro Super Stingray solid state amp which (was very clean sounding) for a good few years. They come up regularly on e-bay.

The OP says he wants a good clean tone. I had an original (early block logo, same thing as script) MXR Distortion +, which I got back when they were pretty much the only OD pedal on the market. It completely killed the guitar's tone when switched off. Literally everybody I knew dumped theirs as soon as pedals with better switching hit the market. Almost anything with a either "true bypass" or a decent buffer circuit would be better than a D+ for someone who wants to maintain a decent clean tone when the pedal is switched off, IMO. I use a Fulltone OCD, which is relatively un-colored and has a big gain range. Tubscreamers (and clones), Zen-drives (and clones), various "clean" boost pedals, the different flavors of Boss OD -- all work better than an original D+ IMO.


John

[rice_burner2000]

I’m very grateful to all of you who took time to post a reply to my message. I have tons of options to test now. Thank you all.


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[rice_burner2000]

Only advice I would offer is whatever stomp box you get, use it sparingly. It takes very little "dirt" to sound warm, and just a little bit more, to sound like a stomp box instead of your guitar and amp.
How are you setting the volume controls on your amp and guitar? I found for myself that rather than adding OD I'm often happy with setting the amp volume at 2 or 3 o'clock, then with guitar volume at zero, slowly roll it up to the volume you want. Also, even with SS amps, you can use a clean boost to add girth/fatness, it just "lifts" the sound without really distorting the tone, even when set to the same volume as without it. This may be enough to get you where you want to be just because from your post, you sound quite a bit like me describing tone!
Another suggestion is that if you have a friend who is more of a rocker, plays in a cover band, buy a six pack and ask them to come over and get some hands on advice. Getting the best sound out of a pedal is not always the most intuitive thing; you can't always keep your guitar and amp settings as you routinely do, then just manipulate the pedal(s) and get just what you're after. It can all become very interactive - a pedal may be able to give you just what you want, but it adds midrange boost, so if you don't turn the mids down on your amp it's not going to give you what you want. There is some art to using stomp boxes and this is even more true if you're using multiple pedals.
Good luck.

Great advice to use it the effect sparingly. This is one reason I am finding the Zoom G3 distortion effects hard to manage. I have access to a Fulltone OCD that I just started to test out. I am starting to like that it is easy to adjust on the fly with a knob turn. Need a little less or more and it is easy to do. Just one thing to tweak vs a new amp. This seems to be a manageable starting place for me to get my feet wet.


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[rice_burner2000]

Overdrive, Delay, Reverb, Amp input. The G3N has much better overdrives than the G3, but there's a lot of good pedals out there too. I like a Tibe Screamer with a few mods.

Hi jorgemg1984, thanks for the post. Is that the order of the effects you recommend? 1 OD. 2 Delay. 3 Rev. 4 amp?


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[BComp61]

You might check out "The Dude" by J Rockett pedals. They make some really great pedals. This pedal should give you a wide range of options tonally. B-stock pricing of only $139...hmmm might have to grab one myself. Their "Blue Note" is also very cool OD.
The Dude - Dumble Style Overdrive with Amp Like Tone