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This is the exact reason that I have gravitated toward roundwounds in recent years. Flats mellow the treble, but not where I want it mellowed out -- up on the top two strings!
Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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11-11-2017 11:42 AM
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I remember asking about the ' plain strings' from a Manufacturer or possibly Elixir whom I don't think makes their own strings but dips them into the ' coating.'..
They said that all plain strings are tin plated steel or other plated steel and I asked why no other Alloys and the Guy said ..'.due to strength and elasticity required- we can't use anything else'.
I have heard of Pyramid using a slightly different Alloy even on Plain Strings - but never confirmed it.
And never ordered Pyramids yet.
I am strict about changing strings - as soon as they break - I change them ....lol...I don't like' Bright Strings' or bright Guitars ..never have..except Martin Acoustics.
I think I pay about a dollar each for extra plains- I would pay $ 2.00 or $3 more each for more mellow plain strings if someone made a Nickel Steel Alloy Plain Series in individual Gauges that was a big difference .A 'big' difference I define as Audible to a listener non musician type.
It's surprising that with all these different String Cores and Winds and Alloys and Cryogenic ( lol ) nobody has done anything for the higher strings ...¿?
¿ = WTFLast edited by Robertkoa; 11-12-2017 at 10:09 AM.
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For sure! It's never the strings but always the music. Still it got me curious to see many of the youger guys using rounds.. my guess is that it may also be some sort of heritage from previous rock incursions! We have this huge rock guitar background now that you didn't really have in the 50s... Originally Posted by omphalopsychos
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I tend to use the B and E from a higher set, when I face that on one of my guitars. Tele and SG usually have an .11 set with B and E from a .12. I also raise the bridge a little more on the high side because of that, so I can pick harder/fuller and avoid the "plink" sound. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Probably because of their frequency. The guitar is a pretty low freq instrument, but still you get close to 1000Hz on the high E, and maybe that's why they mentioned the "elasticity" as you wrote. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Honestly ..I think Kriesberg's Tone is so dark and processed - not sure if Flats would be that noticeable...
I love the Tones of that Marchione Guitar 25.5" as I've mentioned that Moreno Plays ..would be perfect for what I do - I naively thought it was going to be like $5000 range ...lol...it's $15000. And he's sold quite a few maybe even more than a hundred !
Adam Rodgers ..even more anal about picking than me ...I would drive myself nuts trying to do that..and lose some extreme Rhythmic ability cross string stuff that few people do - so I don't need nor want to be 'careful' when I pick ....
He's great though - but I actually think he would sound even better with a Phatter Deeper sounding Guitar than rolling back the Tone so far on a 335 - remembering that he does already sound great and how ridiculous it is for me to criticize someone of that Caliber( !) Actually I am criticizing his Guitar ...( also ridiculous ).
I don't really mean it as criticism though- I would just like to hear that miracle picking attack on some better or different Guitars than a 335 ...I mean imagine him Playing a Martin Acoustic or an L5 , 175 , Heritage 550, 125 , Marchione ,Seventy Seven etc.
Rodgers is probably the Gold Standard for uniformity though...he sounds perfect on the Bach Partitas he practices...like an Orchestra Instrument...Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-12-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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Haven't read through the whole thread, so this may already have come up - but anyway, I'm always a bit surprised that half rounds aren't more popular. I do use 11s rounds on pretty much everything except my Ibby JP20 archtop, where I've tried rounds (13s, 12s, 11s) but somehow on that guitar only they don't seem to work so well for me - the finger squeak and pick scrape somehow becomes more of an issue. I've used flats on it too, and they're OK, but just don't have quite enough bite and crispness for my taste. I also tried Newtone archtop double-wounds, but with those I found a very noticeable difference between the wound strings and the plain (wound ones not loud/bright enough amplified) plus still annoyed with the finger squeaks, despite the smaller diameter wind material.
Anyhow - for me, half rounds were, and still are the answer - I've used both the D'Addario Half Rounds and also GHS Brite Flats (actually a half-round type) and both are great. The string balance from the plain strings to the wound ones is great, virtually no finger noise although not quite as smooth as flats, and a nice compromise between the brightness of round wounds and the warmth of flat wounds. So - why aren't these strings more popular for jazz guitar? They seem close to ideal to me. I've read that Emily Remler liked them also.
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I can't remember who it was I was speaking to ...but he seemed to say that the strings would be very prone to breaking if they changed the Steel Alloy ..I think it was D'Addario I was asking about warmer plain strings. Originally Posted by JPG
I wonder if anyone ever tried...there are many types of Steel..
If they called them "Dead Strings" the Metal Guys would buy them just for the name ...along with stray
Grateful Dead fans...
I buy extra Plain Strings - about a Dollar each ..IF the Market Demand for warm toned Plains was there the Strings would probably be $2 to $3 each...
I doubt if in General , Guitarists care much about warmth in Rock ,Pop ..except Jazz or a few like me.
I suspect that 3 to 5 minutes in a toaster oven might deaden the Plain Strings but have not tried it yet...Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-14-2017 at 09:57 AM.
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I have a 175 (‘68) that’s really bright and it kind of wanted flats on it (I tried rounds) to take the edge off.
I think it’s instrument specific and I go in phases. I was roundwounds only for about 5 years.
Roundwounds are trendy but I honestly feel they are the wrong choice for some instruments. And I feel I can play any style of jazz on the 175 and get a great sound. You just gotta go with what seems right.
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Also I honestly think the only people who dislike finger noise are guitarists and they aren’t the cats that will be hiring you.
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You can hear it, at times, on the left hand not on the right. I personally love his tone, dark yes - but he can pull out some clean tones with the same "purity". I was just listening to his video "Inútil Paisagem" (Jobim) live... man, exquisite playing! Originally Posted by Robertkoa
Wow, 15K? I was hoping exactly the same as you, around 5K Originally Posted by Robertkoa
In the meantime, while I can't get that cash (read like eternity) I added a set of Bare Knuckle Stormy Monday pickups to my Gibson SG and boy is she lovely now! Great for this "modern" type of sound.
Today I'm going more with Moreno's approach to practicing - as he describes it on one of the Masterclass videos; in a very loose statement (mine) "practice and improve from the tunes you're learning and playing.. no exercise books or technical drills other than those found on your repertoire". Originally Posted by Robertkoa
About AR's guitar, that's not criticizing, that's your opinion! As valid as AR's
Incidentally, remember that Moreno was playing a 335 before, until Marchione offered to build him a proper guitar!
Rodgers is probably the Gold Standard for uniformity though...he sounds perfect on the Bach Partitas he practices...like an Orchestra Instrument...[/QUOTE]
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Hey Meggy, I tried halfrounds a couple of times and kinda liked them. But for me they have a problem, it's the feel of the strings on my left hand... whenver I picked up the guitar the strings always felt "wet"! On different guitars, different sets ... after some time, may 30 min into playing, that would go away but the initial impression was always really annoying! Originally Posted by Meggy
Other than that they could be the answer, yes.
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Personally I break a lot of high E strings, specially if it's the Tomastik Infelds... not while playing, but when turning them loose a bit to tune the harmonics, etc. Again, on various guitars, I thought it was a nut thing at first. I always end up ordering a couple of extra B+E these days. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Agree with you. Never struck me like this before but these are absolutely instrument specific... and I'd say music specific, too. Originally Posted by christianm77
I'm feeling better by the day with the Elixir Nanoweb 12s on my 175. This guitar really comes alive with rounds! But so far is the only one.. I tried these strings on one of my SGs and quickly went back to flats
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Cheers - It's true they can feel just a little rough or grippy at first - personally I never got the "wet" thing, not that I doubt that's how it is for you. But as you say, that does tend to go away with a bit of playing - actually fairly quickly for me, and you can always use a bit of Fast Fret or something. Each to his or her own anyhow - I just thought maybe worth mentioning as they are an option that seems often overlooked. Originally Posted by JPG
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A bit off-topic but let me tell you guys a great story with Mike Moreno:
He did a clinic here about a month ago. I asked the initial questions (music, not gear) and that kinda set us on the wrong foot Then he went on to talk about inspiration, how people are mostly wrong about inspiration... he asked the crowd about it, who inspired them, and someone replied with the name of a guitarist I can't remember right now.. Mike replied something like:
"well, imagine I was feeling sick today, could you step up here later in the day and do two gigs with just the music of (put the guitarist's name here)? No papers, nothing, just play to gigs from memory and not repeat a thing. Because when you're really inspired by someone that's what happens, you live with their music 24hours a day, and you know their music in your heart. All the greats can do it, just ask Hancock for a Bud Powells tune and he'll start playing one tune after the other"
again, I'm quoting from memory, these were not his words, but I believe the core thought is there.
He went on to talk about people who only know the same 5 standards and think they can make a career out of it.
He went on to speak about Wayne Shorter, one of his inspirations.
So later he gets ready to play a gig after the clinic with local musicians and said they would play "On Green Dolphin Street" .... unless someone would like to ask for a specific tune ... that was my "cue"
.. I was still a bit "muffed" with the way he read my initial question and so I shot: "I'd love to hear Wayne Shorter's "Lost" ! (This is a kind of obscure tune by Shorter, but one that I really like)
Mike stopped for maybe 2 seconds.... looked at me and started playing the head and a few chords, like that, in a snap! This is no easy tune, go listen to it to see what I mean! But he pulled it out just like he was telling during the clinic!
Then he looked around to his crew and said "well, guess we're going to play OGDS" - the room exploded in a laugh. But then he said to me again "but that's a great tune, though".
It was a fantastic evening, he played 2 gigs plus a solo gig on the next day, right there, 5 feet from my chair
Respect!
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I might point out that Metheny’s tone on Bright Size Life - which may be the most copied tone in contemporary jazz guitar - is a 175 with flatwounds.
Most modern players seem to base their overall conception of how jazz guitar should sound on Metheny.Last edited by christianm77; 11-14-2017 at 07:50 AM.
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That’s very New York. I know a bass player from NYC who’s made a career in London. His approach was to learn the music of every artist wanted to work with, and then tell them that he knew their repertoire. Originally Posted by JPG
A bit off-topic but let me tell you guys a great story with Mike Moreno:
He did a clinic here about a month ago. I asked the initial questions (music, not gear) and that kinda set us on the wrong foot Then he went on to talk about inspiration, how people are mostly wrong about inspiration... he asked the crowd about it, who inspired them, and someone replied with the name of a guitarist I can't remember right now.. Mike replied something like:
"well, imagine I was feeling sick today, could you step up here later in the day and do two gigs with just the music of (put the guitarist's name here)? No papers, nothing, just play to gigs from memory and not repeat a thing. Because when you're really inspired by someone that's what happens, you live with their music 24hours a day, and you know their music in your heart. All the greats can do it, just ask Hancock for a Bud Powells tune and he'll start playing one tune after the other"
again, I'm quoting from memory, these were not his words, but I believe the core thought is there.
He went on to talk about people who only know the same 5 standards and think they can make a career out of it.
He went on to speak about Wayne Shorter, one of his inspirations.
So later he gets ready to play a gig after the clinic with local musicians and said they would play "On Green Dolphin Street" .... unless someone would like to ask for a specific tune ... that was my "cue" .. I was still a bit "muffed" with the way he read my initial question and so I shot: "I'd love to hear Wayne Shorter's "Lost" ! (This is a kind of obscure tune by Shorter, but one that I really like)
Mike stopped for maybe 2 seconds.... looked at me and started playing the head and a few chords, like that, in a snap! This is no easy tune, go listen to it to see what I mean! But he pulled it out just like he was telling during the clinic!
Then he looked around to his crew and said "well, guess we're going to play OGDS" - the room exploded in a laugh. But then he said to me again "but that's a great tune, though".
It was a fantastic evening, he played 2 gigs plus a solo gig on the next day, right there, 5 feet from my chair
Respect!
London musicians do not by and large think and hustle this way. It is food for thought.
I do like Moreno’s material. I’d learn his stuff but he's in NYC so unlikely to offer me any subs haha lol. So I'll just learn the tunes of his I really like.
But there are a few London groups I like a lot so, hmmmm.
The general point is super important - you might not learn a living players rep, but as a pro what are you bringing it the table?
Your own tunes? A great knowledge of standards?
Something worth keeping in mind. Thanks for posting.Last edited by christianm77; 11-14-2017 at 07:48 AM.
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Good point. Originally Posted by christianm77
Do you have any idea of what strings Metheny used/uses?
Bright Size Life is such a landmark..!
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I am with op I try them every now and then but don’t dig.
Have been using a Quilter which are ver clear sounding amps. Thought would give them another try and hmmm it is pretty close to the sound I want with the TIs which I find too dead sounding. Ordered some La Belles fingers crossed they will sit in between.
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D'addarios it says here... Don't know what was avail late '70s.... Presume they had chromes though? Originally Posted by JPG
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If you look at MM's discography, other than his own, it's huge. But at the same time may very well be another "NYC" scene. Each four or five musicians usually generate four or five bands. But he sure has lots of collaborations out of that loop. Originally Posted by christianm77
I do believe Moreno mentioning on his clinic that he is always composing or working on ideas that become compositions... and since you mentioned it, if you look at the guys he've been talking about here, original compositions make for a huge part of their output. It's more the rule than the exception - and it's also one of the reasons why I'm drawn so much to them.
(This would drive this topic way off, but, I do think he has a point in his practice routines. It's the problem of our days... excess of info - what to play, what to practice, exercises and approaches for everything... I do feel that most of it is great and valid, but you risk ending up with a pretty incoherent body of knowledge and playing habits.)
About your final question.... maybe just a group of tunes that touch you deep. I don't really see myself learning some 30 Coltrane or Shorter tunes, but it would make all the sense to know at that deep level my favorite 30 tunes!
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I would strongly disagree with that, but that's not relevant for this thread. And Mehteny has used flats and rounds over the years, hard to take any conclusion. Originally Posted by christianm77
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Back to strings and Moreno:
Some of his chord work is really dense; 5 fingers' chords (right hand) and 6 strings with open strings in between, etc.
Sometimes, with his pick he does a sort of light and fast stroke that sounds incredible and almost piano-like... a "metallic" sound where you seem to have lots of upper harmonics and few fundamentals.
That's one the areas where I do feel the roundwounds really come alive.
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Some Guys roll off so much high end that the Strings become unimportant ...other than Gauge ..lighter strings obviously are magnetically weaker but also don't create as much low Resonance from the Guitar Body etc. and thicker strings sound deeper usually ( referring to Plain Strings). Originally Posted by JPG
No Authority on Metheny but his Tone varies quite a bit...usually very rolled off/ down treble.
I love his ( Brighter but still Phatt ) Tone here though and there's probably more highs in the 'Room'.Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-14-2017 at 10:36 AM.
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