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Thanks, John!
Originally Posted by John A.
Exactly in which "department" of playability you feel the most improvements? Chords, right hand, string changing, what? ... all in general?
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10-29-2017 02:49 PM
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Yes, I'm constantly playing with the tone knob, and with the volume, too, to a less extent. Originally Posted by coolvinny
What I have the most trouble with is the picking, using a Benson-like grip makes you hear (and feel!) a lot of scratch on the lower, thicker wounds' strings.
But perhaps I never gave them enough time to dull out a bit as you mentioned.. also, I think I'm going to try to add some oil to them. Someone mentioned Jonathan Kreisberg using lemon oil on his strings; not sure about the veracity of this but it doesn't hurt trying
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I generally run volume wide open unless I'm bringing it down to comp or due to just being "too loud" and being able to adjust on the amp at that moment. Originally Posted by JPG
I don't Benson-pick at all. I apparently have a weird picking approach where I strike the strings exactly perpendicular, no angle at all. Just flat on. I think this is why I need a thick pick. I have experimented with using a pick angle and it does seem to increase the sound of roundwounds' scratchiness. But not an issue for me.
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I think it's safe to say the vast majority of "modern" players uses round and does not use "benson picking", with maybe the exception of Adam Rogers, who seems to pick close to that. Saying that, completely flat parallel picking is also rare, if you pay attention - because it tends to make the sound to bright and pick heavy - and it's also hard to use technically. If you angle the pick, it's much easier to change strings.
With rounds and some sort of angle picking, some sort of "scratch" is inevitable, but if you insist - you'll either get used to it or make it go away unconsciously. And, in my experience, it's translation to the amp is minimal, if any...
Trying different picks and different rounds it also a good idea (Elixirs do have less pick noise, but sound slightly different from regular rounds). In my opinion, if compression can make it go away, it will do it at the expense of your instrument's timbre. Compression used low enough to make things smoother while keeping your timbre intact, won't get rid of the scratch, in my experience.
I couldn't agree more with wintermoon's post, flats dull an instrument that is supposed to have an acoustic voice... I would use them for a velvet sort of Wes sound, but for nothing else.
I think Mike's use of rounds is more obvious, because his guitar has an incredible acoustic presence, compared to Gilad's VB or to JK's 175 (never saw JK live, but saw Gilad and MM recently).
PS - I believe Kreisberg uses lemon oil to make the fretboard easier to play. At least that's way I use it!
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I'm surprised "they" can't hear the difference? Originally Posted by wintermoon
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I've tried flats a few times. A Godin Montreal Premiere came to me that way, with flats. As did a Dearmond T400, which had a pricey set, forget the brand, mentioned here all the time.
In both cases, I left them on for months. No gigging here, just newbie practice; I was curious to see the pros and cons. Bottom line: I can understand the appeal. Flats favor certain types of guitar sounds, and definitely help with brighter guitars/pickups. It was so with the Montreal Premiere, which was way too bright with the stock p/us and roundwounds.
Otherwise, roundwounds end up to be much more useful for how I hear stuff. One reason is I tend not to own too bright guitars. So flats can (to me) block off part of the warm, defined sound I do want to hear from hollowbodies. A tone knob roll-off is my preference, to take a little edge out. Also, I never use the pointy end of the pick. Always on the rounded side, and approached a little bit at an angle. It's the way I've always played. Not intentional ... just the sound I prefer. That by itself rounds the tone a bit, so flats can feel like overkill.
MD
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Olá Jorge! Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Did you see Mike Moreno when he was there in Lisbon a couple of weeks ago? I saw him here the next days, in Porto.
His guitar is fabulous.... I saw it lying on a piano and it's incredibly thin, but then the top rounds up *a lot* around the bridge area. Most unusual profile I recall, but at the same time it looks quite natural too.
Sooo... Kreisberg uses lemon oil on the fretboard and not on the strings?
Still that may be worth trying What strings do you use? Per your post I'd say you're using rounds, too?
I spent all the weekend around my guitars and strings... I removed the Gibson strings from the 175, added a set of D'Addario ECG25 flats, but while it sounds great I feel I lost something, so tomorrow I hope to find around here a set of EJ21 (Julian Lage, D'Addario nickel rounds, jazz set) and will give at go, too.
But funny thing... through the past months I ended up narrowing my guitars to 2 models, the 175 and the Gibson SG (I totally love that guitar!) - and the funny thing is that I have a feeling that I'll end up with a set of rounds on the 175 and a set of flats on the SG (per your indication, some time ago, I ended up adding a set of Stormy Mondays to the SG and felt in love with its tone on the SG).
Yeah, I think I'll put back some rounds on the 175 and force me to use them for a few months, and probably it will happen, my mind will make the noise go away!
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I love both the sound of flats and rounds.. and I love the feel of flats on my fingers and pick, and the ring/sustain of rounds! Originally Posted by mad dog
One thing I know is that I'll probably never leave flats, but what I'm finding is that it has a lot to do with the music I'm playing. For some things, bebop tunes, soloing and comping, flatwound strings are just perfect. But for other type of tunes (like some I'm writing myself) it's the sound of rounds I need.
I just wish I could play them, seamlessly, not noticing the difference from one type of set to the other.
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Olá, João Originally Posted by JPG
Olá Jorge!
Did you see Mike Moreno when he was there in Lisbon a couple of weeks ago? I saw him here the next days, in Porto.
His guitar is fabulous.... I saw it lying on a piano and it's incredibly thin, but then the top rounds up *a lot* around the bridge area. Most unusual profile I recall, but at the same time it looks quite natural too.
Sooo... Kreisberg uses lemon oil on the fretboard and not on the strings? Still that may be worth trying What strings do you use? Per your post I'd say you're using rounds, too?
I spent all the weekend around my guitars and strings... I removed the Gibson strings from the 175, added a set of D'Addario ECG25 flats, but while it sounds great I feel I lost something, so tomorrow I hope to find around here a set of EJ21 (Julian Lage, D'Addario nickel rounds, jazz set) and will give at go, too.
But funny thing... through the past months I ended up narrowing my guitars to 2 models, the 175 and the Gibson SG (I totally love that guitar!) - and the funny thing is that I have a feeling that I'll end up with a set of rounds on the 175 and a set of flats on the SG (per your indication, some time ago, I ended up adding a set of Stormy Mondays to the SG and felt in love with its tone on the SG).
Yeah, I think I'll put back some rounds on the 175 and force me to use them for a few months, and probably it will happen, my mind will make the noise go away!
I did see Moreno, here. His guitar is quite curious, because it's very thin, has a thick top but still has tons of acoustic properties.
I've been using John Pearse rounds, love them, I'm considering switching to Elixir rounds, just to save money! I've tried the EJ21, and found them too dark and dull, I guess I like bright?
I would say that is the best option, "force" yourself to use a set of rounds for a few months and you'll get used to it. A few month ago I changed my picking technique and, in the beggining, it added a lot of sratch. With time, I either stopped noticing it or found a way of getting rid of it, not really sure!!
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i wouldn't worry about the metal type of the windings unless you're currently using stainless steel which are very abrasive. I love the sound of roundwounds but the angle I hold the pick at causes scraping sounds and also extreme wear with the G String on a medium set. With a Plain G, I'm ok because it seems that mainly the diameter of the winds on the wound G seem to be a problem for me.
But keep in mind that most of the guys we know and love, just use d'addario or whatever is available. When adam rogers was in akron recently for a clinic, he said he was not looking forward to answering questions about strings, picks and equipment...
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I prefer rounds TI Bebop .13's
Rounds sound best after they are played a bit
Best way to tell what your strings sound like is to record playing
in alive stiuation with a strong drummer and bass player and listen
to it a week later
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Really depends on the guitar. My 575 craves flats, but other guitars, I dig rounds.
Strings and picks are a great cheap way to experiment with tone changes.
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Olá, Jorge Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Olá, João
I did see Moreno, here. His guitar is quite curious, because it's very thin, has a thick top but still has tons of acoustic properties.
I've been using John Pearse rounds, love them, I'm considering switching to Elixir rounds, just to save money! I've tried the EJ21, and found them too dark and dull, I guess I like bright?
I would say that is the best option, "force" yourself to use a set of rounds for a few months and you'll get used to it. A few month ago I changed my picking technique and, in the beggining, it added a lot of sratch. With time, I either stopped noticing it or found a way of getting rid of it, not really sure!!
Went to the store today. They didn't have the EJ21, but they had one set of Elixir's Nanoweb 12-52. Change them in a breeze and first impression is that they stayed almost 100% in tune right from the start (truth is that I also leave as little as possible string around the pole and was particularly careful today).
Then 2 other things:
Fretting hand noise is a lot less than with the Gibson strings the guitar came with, that was a major plus - specially since the strings do have that roundwound sound appeal, the sustain and brightness.. I'd say it's close to perfect now,
The other thing is string tension... I go really nutz about it, and always check the overall load of each set. D'Addario strings usually have the highest load and they also have the most uneven load across strings - but on the other hand their ECG25 set is my favorite flatwound set. Tomastik Infeld usually have the less load... and I'd say that a George Benson 14s is even less that a D'Addario 12s (I may be wrong, but this is my recollection..). These Elixirs are quite even and have some 10Kgs less that the (also 12s) D'Addario flatwounds.
So, acidentally, I'm very happy with these Elixir strings now And, of course, the most important thing, they sound right and I don't feel the guitar is loosing any potential tone with them.
(I did try an EJ21 set a couple of years ago and wasn't particularly impressed)
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Originally Posted by jzucker
I had the chance to exchange a few words with Mike Moreno a couple of weeks ago, both during a Clinic (somewhat tense chat but very insightful nonetheless) and also off-event, in the lobby... guess what I didn't ask him about!
!
But I did took a few photos of his pedalboard, tough
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Pat, there's one practical advice that sounds like a million dollars Originally Posted by Pat Clare
Thanks for that.. recording in a live situation, sure sounds as good as testimony as it gets!
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Picks, it took me almost a decade to find my own .. it was quite nightmarish since I have dry skin and hold them in place was serious task. The Jazz III was perfect for years until I changed my right hand, the it was a few bumps again until I settled with the Fender white perloid. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Strings, as you see, I'm still dealing with it.
I'll add one more item to your list that I rarely see mentioned and that makes a world of difference and it's *free*! Pickups' polepieces height .. if you're on humbuckers. Take a close look at Jonathan Kreisberg's neck pickup when you can!
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I agree with what others have said, the type of string depends on the guitar. My Godin 5th Avenues retain some acoustic tone even when amplified and rounds are the only choice for those. My Epi Broadway Elitist is a big L-5 like guitar with no acoustic pretensions whatsoever and I like flats on that for that 50s-60s bop vibe. I used Chromes for a long time on my ES-175 but I recently put rounds back on and I'm digging that.
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One thing you might try is lowering your Pickups to be further away from the Strings - I find this enables wider control of both Dynamics ( where soft picking can be Ghost notes and almost legato )
And - timbre which can be smoother or more attack
and brighter or darker .
And then warm sounding picks which can 'glide' off the Strings due to rounded edges and material.
Gator Grip 2.0 and Gator Grip 1.5 are smooooth unless you pick a little harder ( deeper pick depth) then they get brighter...Benson - like.
And the Black 1.5 mm Duragrip ( from Planet Waves ).Similar to above not quite as smooth and slightly more 'Drag'. Not quite as smooth a release but still more than most.
So smooth release Picks get brighter when you pick harder.
Some pick materials and shapes are bright all the time and merely get louder.
Smooth release picks also have less pick noise..
****You have selected two of the most dynamic pickers in Jazz in Kriesburg and Moreno - they go from nearly ( Kriesburg especially ) legato but still picking every note ....all the way to a crisp Attack ( Moreno especially ) at will with right hand control .
I am coming from the Opposite Direction - making my Roundwoud Elixers sound more like flatwounds at times and sounding from almost like Rohttps://youtu.be/te1dNGk-Huock 'Tappers' while picking to a standard Pro Jazz Attack .
Never knew what kind of strings Kriesburg and Moreno use ( don't care much ) but probably my 3 Favorite Jazzers are Benson, Kriesburg , Moreno ..
So the advice I give above really depends upon how you pick...
But the old idea from Guitar Player Mag and some Pickup Manufacturers of having Pickups really close to the strings is NOT IMNSHO the best way to achieve a very polished Pro sound ...especially if you (like me ) pick rather firmly sometimes for articulation and 'Swing Rhythm' .
My pickups are so low I can play Electric just like it's an Acoustic with all techniques and I need to be precise but not ' careful'.
I recommend starting from the Bottom nearly flush with the Guitar face on Pickup Height - and working UP , not the other way around unless you need Gain (? !) .
The Modern Jazzers are employing EFX Onstage and most have been influenced by the more polished Rock/ Fusion Guys EFX wise .Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-12-2017 at 09:59 AM.
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LOL! And, yeah, I imagine that gets tedious. I wonder if Miles would have had to answer the same questions about Harmon mutes over and over if he had done clinics? Of course not. But guitarists are very equipment-o-centric. We're often less interested in the actual music than we are in gear... Originally Posted by jzucker
And, yep, most pros use cheap(er) strings because they are replacing them much more often than us amateurs. If you're practicing 6+ hours a day and playing a 2 hour gig most every night plus maybe an after hours jam, you're not going to get 6 months out of a set of $25 TI strings- more like 6 days. A new set of strings a week ends up being $100 a month, more than $1000 a year. If you're making $25000 a year from playing, that's a big part of your income.
FWIW Jerry Garcia used a custom set of Thomas Vinci strings (10-47) for years. Currently $5 a set with a spare E and B included (they will make up custom sets for anyone; I've got some Vincis (13-50) on a couple of my guitars now, great sounding strings IMHO and showing no signs of going dead for well over a month). He changed strings every gig or every other. At 100-150 gigs a year, that adds up.
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I've been using rounds since I started playing, thirty *mumble* something years ago. I have flats on my archtop, and they sound good, but I can't get used to the feel. It's like there's nothing to grip. Also, I hate the wound G string.
I've never really noticed a lot of noise. There are finger squeaks, but you get used to them quickly. (Heck you can hear finger squeaks on Segovia recordings, so I don't worry about it.) Pick wise, you'll find a technique that minimizes noise.
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Hi Robert, good idea - the pickup height. Will have to play with that. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
As a matter of fact I have yet to adjust the polepieces on my 175 so I'll do those things together - but it makes a lot of sense, really.
As for picks I always have this trouble of dry skin; I tried dozens and just a couple stay in place easilly for me: the Jazz III and the Fender Classic White, the one I'm using currently. I noticed that going from the Fender Medium to Heavy it made a lot of difference, with the Heavy being a lot easier to deal with in terms of right hand noise. But I'm faster with the Medium ... Perhaps it's a matter of practice.
Last weekend I tried a set of TI's 12 (flats) and in a couple of hours I had the Elixirs back So I guess it's safe to say that on the 175 it will be rounds from now on. And also I'm noticing less and less the right hand noise.. I think it's like Jorge mentioned, above: either I'm picking better or my ear is kind of "deleting" the effect
I love Kreisberg and Moreno's music a lot, too. Moreno more on the composition side, Kreisberg has a control that's out of this world! Gilad Hekselman, too .. honestly each time I hear any of these 3 I think he's the "best".
Julian Lage is amazing, too, but I cannot relate to his music as I can with the others.
And since I'm mentioning the "modern" guys, I spent the whole Summer listening to this album, and it's so great. It's fantastic how Abercrombie managed to sound so actual until his very end!
John Abercrombie Quartet: Up and Coming
+ + + +
My intention when writing the OP was not just talk about gear (although it interests me a lot of course). But what do you guys think?
I feel that with all the great players from the young generation, their musical choices can better be expressed with the sound of roundwounds.. (that was my original premise)
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I love the fact that with rounds things like vibrato get a lot easier due to the extra grip. Originally Posted by Boston Joe
But I love the feel of both! Right now (I think I wrote this already) I'm leaning towards rounds on my hollow guitars and flats on the solidbodies ... My SG has D'Addario 11s with an E.12 and a B.16 and I would not change this for the world!
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Adam Rogers says when you Practice to Play like you are Playing Mozart...and he actually has an unusually uniform Picking attack (and timing) where every Note everywhere on the Neck has a uniform precise sound and soft precise attack.
Both Rodgers and Hekselman ( especially ) sound great Playing Bach.
Asking Rodgers about picks and strings kind of bypasses his unique and pretty amazing Pick Technique and the real Musical Info he's trying to convey and the tens of thousands of hours he's put in.
Not sure that Picking Style would work for most People but he really does the' Mozart Thing' and he Created his own Pedagogy on Guitar.
The fact that there is no 'Standard' for Electric Guitar is kind of cool though....
But can be confusing / bewidering to beginners - which Road to go down...
But equipment helps and is fun ...Last edited by Robertkoa; 11-11-2017 at 11:04 AM.
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Personally, I'm not sure. Yes all the hippest young famous players right now are using rounds. That makes is feel even hipper, for me, to go in their harmonic direction but to use flats. I mean that's just my personal taste but I think it's worth it to try to find unique ways to make yourself stand out. Originally Posted by JPG
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Even with Roundwounds - there is a disparity in Brightness ( IMO ) when you get to the Plain Strings -
Which excellent Guitars can overcome...
But don't Flats make the brightness difference of the
B String and high E String even more apparent ?
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