Disappointed in 1970 Gibson ES-175 from Dave's Guitar.

[JazzNote]

The sad part is many people including myself are a bit reluctant to buy online instrument because it takes expertise to spot potential issues even more when it comes to vintage instrument; add to that the stress of the shipping itself.
The OP is very experienced in turning over instruments and knows what to ask for and the fact he got lied to (not necessarily voluntarily) is nothing to help the non expert like me assuming an inspection claim means anything...
Good in the end Dave's guitar is doing the right thing, but it does not make me more confident in buying online vintage instruments.

No doubt at all JZ is VERY experienced, but it all boils down to the trust issue - can you fully trust someone's reputation, and can you fully trust his inspection (system). I bought my very first L5 from a well reputed dealer in Nashville who at the time (1982 or so) was columnist for Guitar Player Magazine. When it got here it was evident that it needed a neck reset. The dealer's excuse for misleading me with a wrong description of the guitars condition: "due to a faulty inspection system". I did receive a refund for a neck reset, but only after sending a readers letter to Guitar Player Magazin (which btw. was never published). Since then i find that it is safer to basically trust no one.

Note to the OP: thanks for posting, this may help someone in the future!

[vinnyv1k]

The best online dealer I have dealt with is Wildwood. When I bought a guitar from them they asked what strings I wanted, how much relief, and string height at the 12th. It came to me set up spot on to my liking. Even the intonation was done. Only thing I did was lower the pu a bit. They pack extremely well also. Almost UPS proof.

CME is pretty good too. You can get a great price from them and they pack as good as Wildwood. They put a fresh set of DA strings on and do a basic setup but not the extra mile like Wildwood does. Most guitarists like doing there own setups anyway.

I asked Dave a couple weeks ago if he would price match a 175 that CME was selling. He said no...buy it from CME so I did. Dave won't budge off top dollar. CME will. Got a new Blonde 175 for $3300 w/factory warranty.

[Stringswinger]

Better woods and real pearl in the inlays became part of the 175 package in the 90's when the high cost of a Gibson was more about covering labor costs than material costs.

As for me, I like figured wood and pearl inlays. But jazz guitarists are not good with change. I get that. That is why the L-5, Super 400 and the Gibson guitar company is still a hit with our crowd.

FWIW, I get way more complements on my flamed 175 and my flamed 335 (both blondes) than any of my other guitars on gigs. I get that too. They are beautiful works of art.

[citizenk74]

My first ES-175 was a sunburst with a volute (I'm a sunburst kinda guy) and I loved it. My current ES-175 is natural with a nice chunky mahogany neck and curly maple everywhere (Mrs.k spotted it and insisted we get it). I love it even more, perhaps because life has taught me to appreciate the design's strengths - ergonomically, visually, and tonally, not in any particular order.
Or maybe I'm just a guitar junkie.

[Thumpalumpacus]

I prefer plaintops on guitars, as a general rule.

[Dutchbopper]

That sucks Jack. It is so tricky to buy a guitar just from some pics. I don't think I would dare to do that for a vintage guitar. Heck, I did play and check the 125 I just bought but at home I discovered even a few more (smaller) issues that I had not noticed in the store ...

Good luck with a better one.

DB

[Gabor]

Sorry to see that crack. It is obviously not a cosmetic thing instead an injury in the guitar structure.

My advice is return the item, and ask for compensation and also require a written detailed answer how and why this issue could happen (I mean stating multiple invalid facts about the item), and a detailed description what the seller is going to do to prevent similar cases in the future. Do not allow marginalize or minorize your complain. This case do not do fall the "buyer is not completely satisfied", this case is about incorrect business practice or a serious incompetence, pick which one is worst. (based on the description you provided)

I think the lack of setup is one problem, but even bigger problem is lying, and hoping no one will complain. The only way prevent this if manufacturers and sellers recognize it is not enough if they pay (a lot) for the ads, instead they need work honestly to earn and keep their reputation day by day. Sounds as a hard thing, but ios

(However one comment on your action to go to publicity: I think you should gave the chance the seller to correct their mistake before going public. Everybody should have this chance, even your seller. So first step always should be what I was recommended, way before the public complain.)

[Thumpalumpacus]

I think the lack of setup is one problem, but even bigger problem is lying, and hoping no one will complain. The only way prevent this if manufacturers and sellers recognize it is not enough if they pay (a lot) for the ads, instead they need work honestly to earn and keep their reputation day by day.

In business, credibility is everything.

[vinnyv1k]

Jack unfortunately our luck seems to run the same. Even buying new sight unseen is high risk. The life we live in now is online. You will get all your money back. Just a bit of a pain in the rear and of course the disappointment.
We just dust ourselves off and get back on the horse. The perfect 175 is just around that bend. Getty-up.

[agentsmith]

The blonde one was sold a couple months ago. He forgot to update the gbase site. I bought an amp from golden age a few years ago and got an email from him with a cancellation due to the fact that the item had been sold months before and the gbase site never updated. Seems like a common issue among gbase sellers...

1969 Gibson ES-175 Sunburst > Guitars Archtop Electric & Acoustic | Golden Age Fretted Instruments

1970 Gibson ES-175D Cherry Sunburst > Guitars Hollow Body | Thunder Road Guitars

1972 Gibson ES-175D NATURAL > Guitars Archtop Electric & Acoustic | Dans Fine Guitars

[John A.]

i'm visiting Manhattan next month to visit my son who's an attorney for Skadden. I'll probably look for a 175 while I'm there. It's probably worth paying more money to have it in my hands and buy from a reputable dealer.

Pickings have been pretty slim for 175's of late (I've been looking at other stuff, but been taking some note). Believe it or not, Sam Ash and Guitar Center (14th, not Times Square) are probably most likely to have something (there are usually a couple). Matt Umanov and Rudy's may have something in the store not on their sites (Umanov has an old one with a single P-90 online, Rudy's has nothing). Prices are going to be well above what you're seeing from reverb and e-bay sellers.

John

Edited to add: I happened to stop by Matt Umanov. The only 175 in the store is the single P-90 that's on their website. I Didn't play it because I don't even want to think about liking a $7000 guitar.

John

[paulkogut]

I believe Larry Wexer has a 'by appointment' inventory of archtops, not sure about any current 175's. Laurence Wexer, Ltd. - Fine Fretted Instruments

It might be worth the effort to contact some of the good local repair guys (Mas Hino, Evan Gluck) and see if they have a line on anyone who's selling anything...

PK

[agentsmith]

I found a good deal on a '74 but I'm not sure I want a maple neck...

[agentsmith]

OK, got some pix back from the 1970 one. Pretty significant top sinkage and the bridge feet aren't even close to conforming to the top.

This is what I found before. The vast majority of vintage 175s out there are not ready to go unless you're willing to pump a lot of money into them...

The blonde one was sold a couple months ago. He forgot to update the gbase site. I bought an amp from golden age a few years ago and got an email from him with a cancellation due to the fact that the item had been sold months before and the gbase site never updated. Seems like a common issue among gbase sellers...

1969 Gibson ES-175 Sunburst > Guitars Archtop Electric & Acoustic | Golden Age Fretted Instruments

1970 Gibson ES-175D Cherry Sunburst > Guitars Hollow Body | Thunder Road Guitars

1972 Gibson ES-175D NATURAL > Guitars Archtop Electric & Acoustic | Dans Fine Guitars

[JazzNote]

(However one comment on your action to go to publicity: I think you should gave the chance the seller to correct their mistake before going public. Everybody should have this chance, even your seller. So first step always should be what I was recommended, way before the public complain.)

I strongly disagree on this. It's the sellers responsibility not to make such a mistake. By allowing it to happen he "stole" much of the buyers time and energy. I feel that there should be a law enforcing the incorrect party to compensate the buyer for his additional troubles.

[mr. beaumont]

This thread really has me thinking...guitar makers of the world! A high quality 175 "copy" is something people would dig. No "improvements" to the design necessary.

[rlrhett]

This thread really has me thinking...guitar makers of the world! A high quality 175 "copy" is something people would dig. No "improvements" to the design necessary.

I think the problem is that if you had two identical Gibson ES-175's and you changed the headstock logo on one of them, people would swear to their graves that it "just isn't the same. HAS to be a Gibson. The one without the Gibson logo is clearly inferior."

[Stringswinger]

I strongly disagree on this. It's the sellers responsibility not to make such a mistake. By allowing it to happen he "stole" much of the buyers time and energy. I feel that there should be a law enforcing the incorrect party to compensate the buyer for his additional troubles.

Here in the USA we have that as an available remedy under common law breach of contract jurisprudence. The problem is two-fold. One, proving damages is difficult and two, the cost of obtaining justice often exceeds the damages one might obtain.

[Dennis D]

I strongly disagree on this. It's the sellers responsibility not to make such a mistake. By allowing it to happen he "stole" much of the buyers time and energy. I feel that there should be a law enforcing the incorrect party to compensate the buyer for his additional troubles.

This seller's business made a mistake and the seller, in this case, made it right. Now you're talking about compensating the buyer for his time and trouble ?

I'd agree completely - if - there were also a way to compensate sellers for 'getting jerked around '.
Sellers have time and money invested too.

I learned a lot as a career salesman - - there are some people to whom you don't even want to sell a Number 2 Leaded Pencil.

MHO

[agentsmith]

It seems to be an impossible task. Every time someone makes a 175ish guitar, they "improve" the design and the end product sounds nothing like a 175. Whether that's good or bad is subjective.

• Eastman 371
• Holst laminate
• Tom Painter
• Benedetto Bravo
• Heritage 575
• Gibson '59 reissue

I even asked heritage about this in a rare opportunity to influence their product line. i was told that the 575 was a huge improvement over the 175 and they weren't interested in taking a step backwards to make a laminate version.

In the case of the eastman, holst painter and gibson '59, the tops are too thin and resonant so they actually don't cop the classic 175 tone. They do sound louder and more lively but the classic thunk is not there. The benedetto is spruce so it's not really a 175 clone to begin with but it has a somewhat sterile tone and no thunk. The 575 actually sounds gibsonesque and very sweet but not really 175ish.

This thread really has me thinking...guitar makers of the world! A high quality 175 "copy" is something people would dig. No "improvements" to the design necessary.

[John A.]

It seems to be an impossible task. Every time someone makes a 175ish guitar, they "improve" the design and the end product sounds nothing like a 175. Whether that's good or bad is subjective.

• Eastman 371
• Holst laminate
• Tom Painter
• Benedetto Bravo
• Heritage 575
• Gibson '59 reissue

I even asked heritage about this in a rare opportunity to influence their product line. i was told that the 575 was a huge improvement over the 175 and they weren't interested in taking a step backwards to make a laminate version.

In the case of the eastman, holst painter and gibson '59, the tops are too thin and resonant so they actually don't cop the classic 175 tone. They do sound louder and more lively but the classic thunk is not there. The benedetto is spruce so it's not really a 175 clone to begin with but it has a somewhat sterile tone and no thunk. The 575 actually sounds gibsonesque and very sweet but not really 175ish.

It seems to me Ibanez got it right with the PM series -- Metheny himself says he can't tell the difference on his own recordings between his 175 and his Ibanez (caveat: I can't keep straight which Ibbie(s) he actually plays). I would say they've also copped the vibe with some other models that I've heard people play (can't keep any of their model numbers straight, though, so I don't know which ones).

Jim Hall's D'Aquisto sounds like his 175 (or at least like his 175 after Jimmy D'Aquisto finished modding the bejeezus out of it).

The Epi 175 Premium has the sound (if not the fit and finish) of a real 175.

But overall, yes, it's a very particular sound and most of the look-alikes are not sound-alikes.

John

[agentsmith]

I've owned 5 metheny guitars. (2) PM-100s and (3) PM-120s. Not a single one can even hold a candle to a good 175. I wouldn't pay attention to what metheny says. Pay attention to what he uses. He hated the PM120 so much that he preferred the korean copy and used that on tour more often than the japanese one. Not sure which one he's using on tour these days but i can't convince myself to pony up $4k to buy one and they are special-order-only so you can't even try one out but based on my substantive experience with Ibanez guitars, I can't imagine it'll nail the 175 tone. heck, their 175 copy didn't!

And Jim Hall's D'Aquisto did not sound like a 175 and neither does the Sadowsky and the premium Epiphone 175 I played wasn't comparable either.

It seems to me Ibanez got it right with the PM series -- Metheny himself says he can't tell the difference on his own recordings between his 175 and his Ibanez (caveat: I can't keep straight which Ibbie(s) he actually plays). I would say they've also copped the vibe with some other models that I've heard people play (can't keep any of their model numbers straight, though, so I don't know which ones).

Jim Hall's D'Aquisto sounds like his 175 (or at least like his 175 after Jimmy D'Aquisto finished modding the bejeezus out of it).

The Epi 175 Premium has the sound (if not the fit and finish) of a real 175.

But overall, yes, it's a very particular sound and most of the look-alikes are not sound-alikes.

John

[mad dog]

I keep trying ES-175s, always amazed at how different various examples feel. Some much heavier, some very light (like the '69 at Golden Age now.) I was really interested in the P-90 equipped issue of 2006 or so, but the two I tried just didn't have it. Whatever "it" is for me.

Thinking lately that maybe I'm destined for an L4CES instead. Have yet to play one, but that model strikes me as more similar to my Heritage H575, which is one guitar I appreciate more and more over time.

MD

[Stringswinger]

Jack,

In general, I agree with you, nobody has yet made a guitar that nails the 175 sound. And I know that lots of folks will accuse us of being under the influence of some mind bending Gibson cult. But it is true. Either because of fear of lawsuits, some desire to stamp their own creative touch or simply using different tooling or different materials, only a Gibson 175 does what some of us want a jazz guitar to do.

That said, there is a lot of variability in 175's. And I am not talking about different eras, there is tremendous variability there, I am talking about each guitar. You can play two 175's from the same year and there will be variation in sound. Then there is the Pickup factor. I am astounded by the difference in tone that my 63 has with a PUP swap (to be fair, it also went from low wide nickel frets to stainless medium jumbos). The early 175's with P-90's have a different sound than the ones with humbuckers. The 59 Reissue is a different animal altogether. I do not think that the thin top of a 59 Reissue combined with humbuckers ever existed in the past. Even Gibson seems to have difficulty copying themselves!

I also think that one needs to find the right era of 175 for one's needs. Many here will think you a bit daft for being on this search, but I think you are on the right track. Stick to the ones with Hog necks for sure. And do go vintage. The ones made in the 21st Century still need some seasoning. But be prepared to spend some time looking for the right one. Your 89 is now like that great gal you let slip away in your youth (haven't we all done that?). The more time passes, the better we remember her. Don't compare the guitar of today to the guitar of yesterday.

But don't settle either. There is a fine Gibson ES-175D out there waiting for you to meet her. Good luck to both of you.

[agentsmith]

I think the key is just being patient and not jumping at the first thing that's close.

The archtop tribute guitars seem to have a 175 vibe in the clips I've heard. Sure would like to try one.