Floating Pickup for Acoustic Strings?

[omphalopsychos]

I have one of these gems, which are no longer in production:

I love the sound of this thing with acoustic strings, but I also want to plug it into an amp. I know that bronze strings are less magnetic than steel/nickel strings, so I need a floating pickup that has adjustable pole pieces and sounds good with bronze strings. There are three currently on my mind:

Guild Rhythm Chief 1100 Reissue

Kent Armstrong 12 Pole Floating Humbucker

Kent Armstrong Floating Single Coil

Does anyone have any experience with these three? Are there others that you recommend? How would you describe the tonal differences among these? Are there any videos or recordings that you know that demo these pickups faithfully? Finally, will this even work with bronze strings or should I give up before I come out of this rabbit hole several hundreds of dollars poorer?

[Rob MacKillop]

I could have written the above post, though with a different guitar. Looking forward to the comments.

[medblues]

I had the KA floating 12-pole humbucker on my Heritage Johnny Smith. It worked well with 80/20s did not try bronze strings. The bass side of the pickup was closer to the strings because of how the finger rest was installed which helped achieve balance without having to adjust poles :-)

I converted this guitar to fully acoustic because my other archtops fulfilled the magnetic pickup sound well enough and this one had an exceptional acoustic sound that had to be freed from the finger rest and the rest of the assembly. I might install a microphone system later on.

Consider John Pearse Acoustic Electric #2700, their acoustic sound is beautiful and they don't lack in volume compared to 80/20s. If you like them, you don't have to change pickups.

[rob taft]

Here is another option. Jason at Krivos pickups can wind it to your taste.

Krivo Pickups – Neodymium Powered Pickups for Acoustic Instruments. Handmade in Portland, Oregon USA

[omphalopsychos]

I had the KA floating 12-pole humbucker on my Heritage Johnny Smith. It worked well with 80/20s did not try bronze strings. The bass side of the pickup was closer to the strings because of how the finger rest was installed which helped achieve balance without having to adjust poles :-)

I converted this guitar to fully acoustic because my other archtops fulfilled the magnetic pickup sound well enough and this one had an exceptional acoustic sound that had to be freed from the finger rest and the rest of the assembly. I might install a microphone system later on.

Consider John Pearse Acoustic Electric #2700, their acoustic sound is beautiful and they don't lack in volume compared to 80/20s. If you like them, you don't have to change pickups.

Thank you for the input. In my experience, the Pearse Strings do have a nice mellow acoustic tone but they came nowhere near 80/20 bronze strings in volume. I have another solid wood archtop with a floating pickup pickup and the Pearse 2700s, but on this one, I specifically am not considering changing strings from 80/20 bronze. I know rpjazzguitar has been a proponent of the Guild 1100 with bronze strings, but I know his version is the vintage one, and I wonder if the reissue will work as well as the vintage seems to have.

[omphalopsychos]

Here is another option. Jason at Krivos pickups can wind it to your taste.

Krivo Pickups – Neodymium Powered Pickups for Acoustic Instruments. Handmade in Portland, Oregon USA

Thank you for the input. I don't know much about Krivo pickups, but a recent post turned me off to the sound. My impression is that it's a decent feedback resistant solution for gigging, but really not the sound I want to record with.

(see 6:31+ for the Krivo only sound)

My application is mostly recording chord melody, as for louder contexts I would either play my L7 for acoustic comping or my ES 150 for electric tones.

[Rob MacKillop]

I didn't like any of those options either, though can see the point if them for being able to cope with noisy venues.

I'm also interested to learn if the reissue Rhythm Chief can cope with 80/20 strings.

[Alter]

i have the floating hand wound ken armstrong single coil on my elferink archtop. I gave it a shot with acoustic strings following the builders instructions ("remove the pole pieces for the B string. And lower the pole piece of the high E") and the sound was very balanced and pleasing. No experience with your other options though

[omphalopsychos]

i have the floating hand wound ken armstrong single coil on my elferink archtop. I gave it a shot with acoustic strings following the builders instructions ("remove the pole pieces for the B string. And lower the pole piece of the high E") and the sound was very balanced and pleasing. No experience with your other options though

That is nice to hear. Do happen to have a recording of this setup?

[omphalopsychos]

This, from Fred Archtop, sounds quite nice. It looks like he's using electric strings here:

The pickup-only sound is very nice too, but a bit darker, I think, than what I'm looking for:

Richard Franklin's videos are the only demos I've been able to find of the KA single coil, but it sounds amazing.

Finally, here's what I was able to find on the new Guilds. They also sound incredible. Unfortunately, its very hard to find a demo of how any these sound with acoustic strings!

Here's RP with the old DeArmond and bronze strings. This is pretty much the sound I'm after.

[neatomic]

try martin retro monels or the new d'addario nickel bronzes...they have nickel in them..so they have some more magnetic output to react with the pickups...80/20's and phosphor bronze acoustic strings have too little magnetic content to work well with any magnetic pickups..a pickup works off the magnetic interaction between the magnet in the pickup and the magnetic content of the strings...period

slight variations can be caused by the proximity of pickup magnet to strings, pickup pole pieces to string, neck angle, gauge of strings and (more specifically) gauge of inner core..so you may be able to point out exceptions, but it's not the rule

btw piezo pickups work completely differently..no magnetic interaction..you can use (correctly gauged) rubberbands or fishing line for strings and it won't make a difference as far as electric output...and why they sound like they do

cheers

[omphalopsychos]

80/20's and phosphor bronze acoustic strings have too little magnetic content to work well with any magnetic pickups.

I find this hard to accept. They make magnetic soundhole pickups for flat tops that balance the volume by compensating the output of the wound strings. Moreover, from RP's video, the output doesn't only sound balanced; it sounds good!

[Rob MacKillop]

I got Martin Retro 12s this week, Monels, and a set of DR Zebra 12s, which are a mixture of nickel and phosphor bronze, wound side by side. I've yet to try either, but will put the Monels on this week. However, I currently have a humbucker floater on my guitar. It would be nice to try them with a Rhythm Chief one day.

[omphalopsychos]

I got Martin Retro 12s this week, Monels, and a set of DR Zebra 12s, which are a mixture of nickel and phosphor bronze, wound side by side. I've yet to try either, but will put the Monels on this week. However, I currently have a humbucker floater on my guitar. It would be nice to try them with a Rhythm Chief one day.

I would love to hear what you think about the Monels after a week. I have tried them more than once, but I always missed the depth and bass response of 80/20 bronze immediately. Each time I tried them, they came off within hours. I always feel that I never gave them the chance to "warm up", but I wouldn't anticipate an increase in bass volume with time.

[Rob MacKillop]

I'll report back.

[Cunamara]

The new Guild De'Armond pickups are straight-on clones of the old ones and sound virtually identical (the magnets in the old ones have aged, of course). If you want to achieve the sound RP got with a vintge one, the new ones should fill the bill.

[neatomic]

I find this hard to accept. They make magnetic soundhole pickups for flat tops that balance the volume by compensating the output of the wound strings. Moreover, from RP's video, the output doesn't only sound balanced; it sounds good!

as i wrote

"slight variations can be caused by the proximity of pickup magnet to strings, pickup pole pieces to string, neck angle, gauge of strings and (more specifically) gauge of inner core..so you may be able to point out exceptions, but it's not the rule"

it all comes down to gauss..acoustic bronze strings don't sound as good as nickel or ss strings when amplified..and those same electric strings dont sound as good as bronze acoustically...so whats left is something in between..that's where monels, nickel bronze, dr zebras etc come in

does a monel sound as bold as phosphor bronze acoustically..probably not...but the monels will have more to offer through a pickup...

cheers

[Rob MacKillop]

Ok, I took off the DR Rare phosphor bronze, replacing them with the Martin Retro Monels. With MY guitar and pickup combination (D'Aquisto NYE and Bartolini floating humbucker) the acoustic quality suffered a little in volume and quality of tone, it has to be said. But, yes, through the amp (Henriksen 112 ER) the sound was stronger than before. However, the third string was still a little bit more quiet than the others of the same set, but, most noticeably, the second and third strings were very loud compared to the others of the same set. I would be distracted by them if playing a live solo set, where balance across the six strings is of great importance to me.

So, what adjustments could be made? Unfortunately, there is no way to adjust the poles on the Bartolini. A different pickup might do a better job, but it can be expensive trying out even just two or three models.

It's a quandary. The best sound remains a bronze acoustic set, which is best served by playing in front of a good microphone. That's not always possible, however, so a pickup/string option is still required. Compromise is needed.

[silverfoxx]

Hi Rob,
Thank you for the pm , it is disappointing to hear of the imbalance
On the third (G) string of the Monels. It seems the solution might
be to replace the Bartolini pickup which is rather drastic move.
or experimentation with other strings might be the answer.
It is of no consolation but I have used TI flats for 20+ years with
almost no problems. I confess that I have not tried their BeBop
wound strings , but others here have complained of the G string
problem . It is indeed a conundrum.
We shall have to wait patiently to hear the D'A amplified.

Best, SF

[Rob MacKillop]

So, which would be more suitable? The Rhythm Chief, with its weaker b and e strings, or a still acoustic-sounding pickup with individually-adjustable poles? And what would the later be?

[omphalopsychos]

Rob, thank you for the detailed report! I had anticipated a response along those lines, having once put Monels a guitar with a Johnny Smith pickup and finding the balance unsatisfactory.

Here's a response I got from the folks at Lollar:

We have had some customers use both our Johnny Smith and our Gold Foil pickups with bronze strings, with varying levels of success depending on the players expectations and priorities. If the acoustic tone with bronze strings is the priority, a piezo or rare earth magnetic pickup will work better. If an electric tone is the priority, then steel or nickel strings will work much better. If you’re just trying to get some support from a magnetic pickup and you’re also using a microphone or piezo, then it may work well enough with bronze strings.

The adjustable pole pieces on the Johnny Smith can help a little with string balance, but with bronze strings it still will not balance as you would expect from a steel or nickel string set. The same goes for any other brand of magnetic pickups, unless you’re talking about pickups built with rare earth magnets specifically for use with acoustic strings.

My stubborn mind focuses on this excerpt:

If the acoustic tone with bronze strings is the priority, a piezo or rare earth magnetic pickup will work better. If an electric tone is the priority, then steel or nickel strings will work much better. If you’re just trying to get some support from a magnetic pickup and you’re also using a microphone or piezo, then it may work well enough with bronze strings.

So I should get a Rhythm Chief and/or a K&K Big Twin transducer? How would a transducer pickup sound through a tube amp?

[neatomic]

so j lollar (one of the top pickup guys around) reaffirms what i've been saying all along ...it's magnetics!...you have to realize you are not going to have the perfect acoustic and electric tone..you have to compromise one a little for the other...and create the best combined tone


also let the strings break in a bit before deciding how you feel about them...not only for their tonal changes (mellowing), but so you can get acclimated to a different sound...coming from bronze strings, the acoustic differences are always going to be marked..but try blending in the electric tones..thats why you changed strings..for a combination electric/acoustic tone!...work with your amp as well!

also just because that particular set of monels doesn't work, it doesn't mean a different gauge or brand would not work

good tone don't come easy..but just keep chasin' it..it'll always be close enough to keep you striving!! haha

luck

cheers

[omphalopsychos]

so j lollar (one of the top pickup guys around) reaffirms what i've been saying all along ...it's magnetics!...you have to realize you are not going to have the perfect acoustic and electric tone..you have to compromise one a little for the other...and create the best combined tone


also let the strings break in a bit before deciding how you feel about them...not only for their tonal changes (mellowing), but so you can get acclimated to a different sound...coming from bronze strings, the acoustic differences are always going to be marked..but try blending in the electric tones..thats why you changed strings..for a combination electric/acoustic tone!...work with your amp as well!

also just because that particular set of monels doesn't work, it doesn't mean a different gauge or brand would not work

good tone don't come easy..but just keep chasin' it..it'll always be close enough to keep you striving!! haha

luck

cheers

Thanks for your continued input. Trust me I will continue to chase it. My biggest concern with testing out the rhythm chief is that it can't be mounted without drilling some holes on the side of the neck. If I decide I don't like it, I'm stuck with it. I may end up trying out the KA single coil; and I'll be sure to report the results. Now just hoping for a response from someone that sells them!

[medblues]

How would a transducer pickup sound through a tube amp?

I routinely run my piezo outputs (80/20 and nylon string guitars) into the power amp of a GB Hot Rod Deluxe and like the results, warmer sounding than an acoustic amp since the speaker is not full range.

[Alter]

Originally Posted by Alter
i have the floating hand wound ken armstrong single coil on my elferink archtop. I gave it a shot with acoustic strings following the builders instructions ("remove the pole pieces for the B string. And lower the pole piece of the high E") and the sound was very balanced and pleasing. No experience with your other options though


That is nice to hear. Do happen to have a recording of this setup?

i recorded a couple of cuts on a cd but i 'm afraid it's gonna be a while before i get to hear them