Toob - Ultra-light guitar speaker

[Jim Soloway]

Jim, I have appreciated your posts and this one makes a lot of sense. A good 8-incher inside 10" pipe might well work - for some but not for others. There's such a variety of volumes and tones under "jazz guitar" anyway. We'll look into this. A 1.5 man enterprise can't have an endlessly long or fat R&D pipeline, however.

Thanks. I certainly understand from first hand experience about the limitations on a small venture and at this point I'm sure the first priority is to just get a product to market (as it should be). I'll be following with great interest as you move forward.

[Gitterbug]

I really only have one suggestion: stay away from cosmetics like that flower print. If you want it to be taken seriously, I think you're much better off having it look industrial rather than frivolous. It's a product I'll be serious about but I'd order mine in all-black.

Theater Black will certainly be available. The Marimekko "Poppy" design is very popular here in Finland, and I just wanted to use it to display that customizing options are virtually endless. If someone prefers a non-corrugated look, the basic shell can be clad e.g. with felt or any grade of Tolex. It's just an added weight (over a pound with the supporting sheeting) and cost. The Uponor pipe we are using has a fantastic surface quality and texture so I agree with you. People who have seen the prototypes have been divided on the looks, but majority accepts or even prefers the kind of workingman/military austerity of the basic design.

[Silentwiz]

I'd definitely be interested here.

Reading the comments above, I agree with:
- "loaded speaker cabinet" is the right terminology, go with it
- focus on the black/basics and avoid the cosmetics
- think through the "platform" for a head (and any cool cable routing)
- ensure you can compare the resulting sound to a traditional cabinet -- I'd sure like to think that this will sound like something traditional when it's all done


Get it to market! Sign me up!

[Gitterbug]

I agree with the "speaker cabinet' terminology. I already have fairly light neo speakers in my Kolbe cabinets (swapped out from the 'bolted to the floor EV12L's) , so I almost passed this post by. Having the possibility of a smaller, lighter cabinet (that could possibly fit in a checked suitcase?) is something I'm very interested in.

PK

Sorry it took me awhile to address this one. Yes, we have a telescopic version to fit even in a cabin bag. It's just 220 mm (9 inches) deep in transport position. We don't fully understand its antics yet, as it seems to produce the best jazz tone in a half-extended mode. Could we make it even shorter? More testing is needed. Another derivative that has to wait until the std. version is out.

[agentsmith]

i'd also consider offering in a slightly larger enclosure. The smaller enclosures ultimately result in a somewhat pinched tone compared to the open back and larger cabinets. This is one drawback with the mambo design.

And I would disagree that an 8 is great for jazz. An 8 might be good for quiet jazz but with a loud drummer, organist and saxophonist you'll ultimately need 2 8" cabs or a single 12". Possibly a 10" could get you through in a pinch.

[Gitterbug]

I'd definitely be interested here.

Reading the comments above, I agree with:
- "loaded speaker cabinet" is the right terminology, go with it
- focus on the black/basics and avoid the cosmetics
- think through the "platform" for a head (and any cool cable routing)
- ensure you can compare the resulting sound to a traditional cabinet -- I'd sure like to think that this will sound like something traditional when it's all done


Get it to market! Sign me up!

Thanks for the encouragement! Your advice is sound. On your last point: electric guitar tone is an acquired taste. I haven't understood why so many are vying for "vintage" sounds. I used to play rock in the 1960s on equipment no-one would touch today. We had no clue about guitar intonation or string gauges. We just played.

The TOOB does not sound exactly like the square boxes. It has less internal ping-pong and no standing waves. Hence, it has more sonority and clarity. Great for surf or 12-string. This you can compensate, if you want, with just a tad of reverb. Overall, it cuts through on less volume than regular boxes. As well, it does not muddy up your bass end, which is often the case with a neck humbucker/12" speaker combination. I used to get glances from my bassist whenever I did Freddie Greene style comping below Bb on the 6th string. I was in his airspace. Not anymore, as the lows are sharp and percussive.

[Gitterbug]

I'd definitely be interested here.

Reading the comments above, I agree with:
- "loaded speaker cabinet" is the right terminology, go with it
- focus on the black/basics and avoid the cosmetics
- think through the "platform" for a head (and any cool cable routing)
- ensure you can compare the resulting sound to a traditional cabinet -- I'd sure like to think that this will sound like something traditional when it's all done


Get it to market! Sign me up!

Thanks for the encouragement! Again, I've already sent a response, but it appears to be lost in space. Perhaps, it will show up after moderation. At the risk of repeating (better than contradicting) myself: The TOOB does sound a bit different. It has less internal ping-pong than boxes with rectilinear surfaces. Hence, more sonority and tone separation. This means it cuts through on less amp power. The basses are less boomy and muddy than is often the case with a neck humbucker/12" driver combination. If you think the tone is too dry, just add a bit more reverb. Your guitar has a tone knob, your amp may have several. Use them! I used to get glances from my bassist when comping Freddie Greene style below Bb on 6th string. Not anymore, as the lows are crisper and more percussive. In my young years I used to play electric 12-string. I now have a Gretsch 3156 Streamliner with DeArmond 2000 pups. It's a swell guitar for testing, ranging from dark and mellow to crystal clear without breaking your whisky glass.

[Herbie]

Wow, looks and sounds interesting!

As a fellow Finnish I welcome this new innovation with joy and hope it will be our Next Nokia!

[Herbie]

But I did not see a Jensen Tornado mentioned among the neo speakers. I have one in my 5e3 clone and it does not sound bad at all. With ES175 w/ humbucker nor a Les Paul w/ P90s. It has not broke in yet so I can't give the final verdict yet.

[Longways to Go]

Hooray for new ideas !!!

Best of luck with your new endeavor.
Smallest speaker enclosure possible = brilliant.
8", 10" & 12" could all get the treatment IMO.

The tilt-back & flat-spot of amp head are great touches too.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I assume you've tried different depths for the TOOB. I know your preference is for lighter weight, but was there any benefits from extra depth?

What would a metre-long cabinet sounds like?

[sgcim]

I've been looking for a cab for my 12" SRO Electrovoice 'coffee can speaker. Would this be appropriate?

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

I've been looking for a cab for my 12" SRO Electrovoice 'coffee can speaker. Would this be appropriate?

I don't think speakers are supposed to weight more than the cab.

[Woody Sound]

Looks/sounds like a great idea. Quilter has been using the Celestion neo BN12-300S in their Mach 2 HD's. But it might be a LITTLE bit more heavier at 4.4 lbs/2kg. I swapped one into one of my RE 12-ERs with nice results. But the empty cab itself is still heavy, so I don't now how much benefit I really gained from the neo. Didn't measure before/after.

Bass - BN12-300S (8) - Celestion - Guitar, Bass & Pro Audio Speakers

[Herbie]

Hi guys, it's Gitterbug. Check this out!
It's about the TOOB^TM, a 9-10 lbs (4-4.5 kg) guitar speaker loaded with a 12", up to 100 W Neo driver. (...)

Now I listened the video with better speakers. Great sound! And finally saw the Jensen Neo mentioned too.

If there is some conservative guitarists who don't feel like home with a round speaker cab You can always offer another model where there is a square housing around the TOOB!

(Hmm... perhaps this is Thinking Inside the Box... TIB!)

Good luck to the project!

[Gitterbug]

I'd definitely be interested here.

Reading the comments above, I agree with:
- "loaded speaker cabinet" is the right terminology, go with it
- focus on the black/basics and avoid the cosmetics
- think through the "platform" for a head (and any cool cable routing)
- ensure you can compare the resulting sound to a traditional cabinet -- I'd sure like to think that this will sound like something traditional when it's all done


Get it to market! Sign me up!

Funny I already replied twice and now the posts are lost in space. Anyway, thanks for your support and suggestions. As for the sound, it's slightly different from traditional cabs. Less internal ping-pong compared to rectilinear walls. A tad more reverb and you're back to acquired tastes. The unit has a clearer, crisper tone and better separation, let's call it all sonority. This means that you cut trough on less power, and you have a better defined airspace/role in the band. Previously, I got glimpses from the bassist whenever I comped Freddie Green style below Bb on 6th string. Not anymore, as the basses are snappier and more percussive. This applies more to the open-back design than the ported one, which aims to please the rock crowd as well.

[kris]

is it on the market?

[Gitterbug]

Now I listened the video with better speakers. Great sound! And finally saw the Jensen Neo mentioned too.

If there is some conservative guitarists who don't feel like home with a round speaker cab You can always offer another model where there is a square housing around the TOOB!

(Hmm... perhaps this is Thinking Inside the Box... TIB!)

Good luck to the project!

Thanks, Herbie! You talk almost like you had a helicopter view into my man-cave. I shouldn't say more, as various features under development may well be patentable. All in all, this project would certainly qualify for Kickstarter, but Finnish legislation prevents that.

[Gitterbug]

Kris, sorry, not yet. We need reasonable assurance of demand for at least hundreds of units before pressing the button. As well, we have been talks with a major company about selling through them exclusively. Those talks may well resume now that the product is 99% ready and getting response on the Web. We will know after NAMM - everybody is busy with the show right now.

[Gitterbug]

I assume you've tried different depths for the TOOB. I know your preference is for lighter weight, but was there any benefits from extra depth?

What would a metre-long cabinet sounds like?

Good question. No difference of course at the barking end, but a very long pipe makes the rear end sound "cylonesque". I have just A/B'd a standard shell and one that's 90 mm longer. The bass end is slightly mellower on the latter, and we are still under 10 lbs. Could be something for the future bass version, or an option for guitar as well. My home jury (one son is an accomplished guitarist of the Van Halen-Vai-Holdsworth tradition, the other a semi-pro drummer who shepherds 2,200 instruments as his day job) don't think the marginal improvement is worth the sacrifice in compactness.

[Gitterbug]

An Eminence Deltalite II 2512 is another option. About 1 lb heavier and more power handling.

Yup. No. 1 on the shortlist of choices to test once the bass project is up to speed. Incidentally, the very first take in 2008 was meant to be an all-rounder for guitar and bass. It "sported" (and still does) a 10" Eminence double-cone element which sounds great but weighs a ton. Wasn't aware of Neo speakers in those early days.

[Gitterbug]

Don't forget jazz guys love 15" speakers, too!

I won't. But over the past 24 hours people have been asking for anything from 8" to 15". The tooling for injection molding the rims costs several thousands, and it's diameter-specific. I've looked at all conceivable technologies, and this appears to be the only feasible one apart from hand lamination of fiberglass - not an economical proposition either. As it happens, the next standard pipe size is 400 mm (apx 16") o/d, and a 15" driver fits in comfortably. I have a 15" bass prototype, which has seen many lengths and tail ends. Its codename has been either Fat Bertha (there was also a loooong, closed 12-incher called Long Tall Sally) or Cloaca Maxima. The Italian-made bass driver is probably not the best, but it obviously requires the air suspension of a closed cabinet. On guitar frequencies, no problem. If I get off the ground with 12", other gauges will follow. BTW, I've also split the 400 mm pipe in two halves and made half-round variants. These would work as monitors or in PA. More complexity however, and added weight from the unavoidable plywood baffle.

[BigDaddyLoveHandles]

Its codename has been either Fat Bertha (there was also a loooong, closed 12-incher called Long Tall Sally) or Cloaca Maxima. The Italian-made bass driver is probably not the best, but it obviously requires the air suspension of a closed cabinet. On guitar frequencies, no problem. If I get off the ground with 12", other gauges will follow. BTW, I've also split the 400 mm pipe in two halves and made half-round variants. These would work as monitors or in PA. More complexity however, and added weight from the unavoidable plywood baffle.

Too much Latin for the North American market. I suggest "Big Johnson".

[Skip Ellis]

Have you tried the SICA neo speaker from Italy? I've been using one with MB200 for about 4 or 5 years and it's been really good for me. A lot of the pedal steel players are using it. It's actually a bass speaker but has a pretty wide range and it's rated at something like 350 watts. My MB200 puts out all 200 watts into the 4 ohm speaker. and it's very light weight.

[Gitterbug]

Have you tried the SICA neo speaker from Italy? I've been using one with MB200 for about 4 or 5 years and it's been really good for me. A lot of the pedal steel players are using it. It's actually a bass speaker but has a pretty wide range and it's rated at something like 350 watts. My MB200 puts out all 200 watts into the 4 ohm speaker. and it's very light weight.

No, not that one. But Jensens come from SICA, as does my 15" bass speaker. Nice people. met them in Frankfurt last spring.The pedal steel community is a world of its own, which I do not know. Yet, I feel that there's common turf somewhere between guitar and bass.