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I'm looking to purchase a gypsy guitar, but I am worried it is perhaps too specific to one type of music and not versatile enough. Could you use one of these guitars for more traditional jazz, or even just simple pop music, without it sounding out of place? Thanks.
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07-31-2016 02:27 PM
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Gypsy guitars are more versatile than most folks think, particularly if you play them lightly or even fingerpick.
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It depends on the Gypsy guitar. A good one will be versatile enough to play any type of music with including jazz. A poor one will be harsh and banjo like. IMO, those examples are barely useful for Gypsy jazz, much less anything else.
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Marc as usual offers excellent insight here. By a good one my guess is he is referring to a "good one" as something like a Dupont, and by a poor one something along the lines of a Asian built instrument i.e. Gitane.
Originally Posted by Stringswinger
Quite a difference in price there, although a Dupont Nomad model with a bolt on neck can be found in the price range of the upper end Asian GJC's if you are patient.
A few years ago I was in a gigging situation where my horn player and I were asked to play "trad jazz" in a very quiet setting and I opted to use my Latcho Drom Djanology (D hole, Asian made) guitar. I played it strictly acoustically (although it has a Big Tone pickup installed). It worked very well and the jazz police didn't show up asking why I didn't use my Benedetto.
Which GJC are you considering?
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Yeah, I am with that too. A good gypsy guitar will be luthier made. The good ones have chime and timbre and projection like nothing else. They are definitely brighter than archtops and have less bass response. They outshine any other flattop guitar. I am totally crazy about this tone. Unfortunately they are harder to play than archtops. It takes a lot of practice and probably a solid rest stroke technique which takes a long time to develop. If you're up to taking the ride it'll be worth it.
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I recommend Rodrigo Shopis or Shelley Park. For an all-rounder manouche guitar, I recommend a 25.5" Grande Bouche, Big D Mouth. I love the Big Mouths because I have one.
Rodrigo Shopis in New York City bends the top, giving it a pliage. He ladder-braces his guitars. Some day...Rodrigo makes a really cool 16" L5-shaped archtop with a Charlie Christian blade pickup and a manouche tailpiece. I hear it is ladder-braced with a pliage. Ask Rodrigo. There is a UK player who plays that guitar. His name escapes me.
Maurice Dupont, Alonso Le Dosseur, ALJ, Killy Nonis are all great European and UK manouche guitar makers. Michael Dunn has retired, I think.Last edited by Jabberwocky; 07-31-2016 at 04:20 PM.
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I was gifted a copy of Plectrum Guitar Masters book and I played a lot of it with my Altamira. It had a lovely tone for those old tunes and brought out a different voice on that guitar. As Mr. B stated, Gypsy guitars are far more versatile than we give them credit for.
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
I have owned a Shelley Park guitar (I regret selling it). Beautiful workmanship and a warm enough tone to play any style of music with. That said, her guitars do lack the requisite trebles for a "traditional" Gypsy jazz sound.
I have owned a Michael Dunn guitar. He has retired from building. His guitars are more like classical guitars than archtops in feel. They may be the perfect Gypsy guitar for those who are most comfortable with a classical.
I own two Duponts and have owned a third. IMO, these are the closest thing to a Selmer guitar that you can get without paying the 20K plus pricetag for a vintage selmer. Like all French guitars, the fit and finish will not be up to American standards (I guess they have different priorities in the land of the Eifel Tower) and playabilty will not be as easy as a Shelley Park with the American neck profile that she uses. These guitars have the traditional Gypsy guitar sound in spades and can be used for any other style as well.
I have owned two American made Dell Artes. One was great, the other was mediocre. Great fit and finish, but try before you buy.
I have owned 4 Gitanes. Great for the price and all 4 of mine were good sounding. But I have played some terrible ones that were harsh and banjo like. I have also played other Asian made Gypsy guitars that were harsh including an Altamira (which many in the Gypsy jazz world rave about)
I have played AJL's, Favinos (I owned one of these for several years) Busatos, Holos, Michael Collins, Pattentottes and ALD's. Mostly fine guitars. I have never played a Hahl nor a Shopis, but have heard good things about them.
D holes have more bass response (but usually only have 12 frets clear of the body). The Oval holes are more popular.
A traditional Gypsy guitar like a Dupont will sound its best using rest stroke picking. And they all sound best with silver strings (which do not hold up well at all).
I have yet to amplify any of these guitars and be completely happy with the tone. They are at their best when played acoustically.
It can be a long and hard journey finding the right guitar of any type. With the scarcity of Gypsy guitars, the journey here is even more daunting. Good luck!
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It should also be pointed out that while archtops are a niche market, GJG's are a super niche market and can be tough to resell if the need arises.
However that can work to your advantage in the used market as many folks go on the Gypsy Jazz journey and don't stick with it, so there are some deals out there to be had.
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Thanks for all the responses!
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+1 to what stringswinger said. The strings (e.g. argentine) are a big part of the sound. Technique is also really important, a technique like Benson picking won't get you anywhere close to a gypsy sound (even if there are commonalities). It needs a somewhat forceful picking approach. The restroke technique is a huge part of the gypsy sound and without it one will never sound anywhere close not matter what the equipment is. Yes, it is a niche market. A real nice guitar will probably only be available from a specialized luthier. Jabberwocky named some. In germany I would name Doderer and Volkerts as luthiers who make outstanding Selmer and Maccaferri style guitars.
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I have a Rodrigo Shopis guitar on order...should be done very soon. His guitars come very highly recommended by some very illustrious players on both sides of the pond. I'll post a review later. But very excited for this one.
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I'll make no friends by sayING this, but some of the lower priced laminate back/sides guitars get much closer to the Real Django sound than their more expensive bretheren.
The boutique guitars are far more versatile, though.
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I've used my Gitane DG-300 for trad jazz gigs. It sounds great in that setting. I have a Krivo pickup for it too, there's no reason it couldn't be used for 'normal' jazz too, particularly when amplified.
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The cheaper gypsy guitars that i tried where acoustically really dead at which point the vibe was really gone and all that remaind was the looks ... Just sayin .... But Jeff ... You are a great guy and a wonderful guitar player - so I respect your opinion to the contrary :-) peace ...
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How cheap we talking?
400 dollar Cigano/Paris Swing...ah, maybe, with great technique...
$1000 Altamira/Latch Drom/Gitane?
Sounds great.
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Amen brother! Gypsy guitars are wonderful when completely acoustic, but trying to accurately amplify them is serious pain. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
My current system is an Ischell stick-on mic into a K&K Pure Preamp box into a Fishman Loudbox Artist Pro. It ain't cheap! And even with all this, if I have to play too loud it gets a bit "hard" and piercing.
OTOH, even a mid-level ovalhole guitar, like a Paris Swing or a Gitane can sound really great with a magnetic pickup. I recommend a Krivo, as they are thin and afix to the top with some putty and are easily removed. With the right amp, it's instant electric Django! Not so easy with a Dhole guitar, as the only place to put 'em tends to be right in path of the pick and they're microphonic so you get a really loud click if you hit with your pick.
Also, something to remember is even if you use a magnetic pickup, the amplified sound won't really resemble an archtop as gypsy guitars respond very differently.
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this thread is a great education! thanks all
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I'm going to go against the popular opinion here... To me GJ guitars are not very versatile at all. I mean, you can play probably any style on it, but you stuck with this particular tone. If you like it, then it's fine. I have a cheap Gitane D 500, and honestly I hate it. I very rare use it for gigs, mostly for jam sessions when I need to play strictly acoustic. But this is gonna change soon too, because I have my National resonator now!
Another myth is that GJ are super loud and project better than any other acoustic. I didn't find it's to be true either. I've heard a Martin dreadnought that kept up with many Gypsy guitars just fine.
All in all, for versatility in jazz I'd recommend good ol archtop guitar, but that's just my experience.
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Mmh, can't name a pricetag and I also do not want to offend anyone. I have been going to GJ worksops for the last couple of years and hence have seen many GJ guitars and also flattops in direct comparison.
For people who master the restroke technique the GJ guitars definitely completely drown out the flattops including fancy Martins and Taylors. Not that the Martins and Taylors don't sound good - they sound great but you just can't hear them anymore once a whole room of players goes 'la pomp'. Not so with a good GJ guitar played by someone with good technique (meaning - not me for the most part; I have been struggeling to learn the technique for quite a while now. Only recently is there some progress). People without correct technique will not manage to make these guitars sing at all. Right hand technique is perhaps even more important than the guitar itself.
I have observed that there are noticeable differences between luthier made GJ guitars and the commercial offerings that anyone brought to these workshops. I cannot say that this is a comprehensive sample, but it was noticeable. The commercial instruments tended to have much thicker tops and thick laquer and were much heavier overall than the luthier made ones. In direct comparison that made them somewhat plinky. Like a Gibson L5ces played next to a Heritage Johnny Smith both played acoustically.
For amplification - the builtin piezos that many of these guitars have tend to sound harsh and brittle. With GJ guitars I had luck with gooseneck mic's like the dpa. They are expensive but sound great. For archtops I have never managed to get usable volume with these mics. There will be feedback issues though and perhaps mixing them with a piezo signal lets one go a bit further in volume. Also some good preamps like the LR baggs have notch filters.
Versatility ... Don't know, really. For fingerpicking flattops appear more appropriate to me as the GJ guitars are engineered to have little bass response. I guess in the hands of a great player pretty much any acoustic guitar sounds wonderful :-)
Just my 0.02$ worth of experience .... Peace :-)
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I saw Remi Harris last year, a fantastic young UK gypsy jazz guitarist. I asked him what guitar he was playing and he said he was using a Gitane. He said it was pretty good for the money, and good enough for gigs and touring. He got a superb sound out of it.
Having said that, he is an astoundingly gifted player, so he can probably make anything sound good!
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Like most of the "Can I play jazz on a ___ guitar" questions, the answer is usually, "Sure … but don't expect it to sound like a ___."
If you like the sound of the gypsy guitar, then go for it.
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I had an English made Le Voi oval hole gypsy guitar.
Boy that was a stunning and toneful guitar.
I got arsed that gypsy strings were so hard to find, piss poor quality and expensive to buy. I got a pack of three Argentine string sets and 2 of the three G strings unravelled at the ball end!
So I put on phosphor bronze 10's and wow. The guitar had a bigtone pickup in the bridge which was superb.
Mixing in the pickup with a contact pickup and fading between the two with eq'ing got some brilliant sounds.
When I sold the guitar it was a meet up in a car park. A bit dodgy in retrospect but hey ho. So I plugged it into a micro cube without reverb on the JC channel and wow. The natural reverberation, acoustic tone and amplified tone was immense! I was sooo sad to let her go and what I played then was all in a minor key. The new owner didn't try to drop the asking price because he could hear that guitar. It was special.
So what am I trying to say here? (I have waffled on, rose tinted specs an' a' tha')
Just that it sounded great whatever was played on it.
At a guitar jam this folk singer played it with the bronze strings on and it sounded amazing to me as a listener, even though it was all 'folk chords'.
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Interesting, never tried bronze strings ... I am so addicted to the sound and feel of argentines. Tried them again today on my acoustic archtop. Sadly, no success. They just don't drive the top enough :-( ... Not that I hadn't read about this before but sometimes on has to make ones own mind up. Hence these strings appear to be really made for GJ guitars and that's where they shine.
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I've got a Dell Arte John Kinnard built gypsy guitar that doesn't sound too terribly different than my vintage Epiphone Triumphs. In light of that observation, I would gladly use my gypsy guitar for any application that would call for a classic acoustic archtop.
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