Could you use a gypsy style guitar for more traditional jazz?

[Robertkoa]

I'm looking to purchase a gypsy guitar, but I am worried it is perhaps too specific to one type of music and not versatile enough. Could you use one of these guitars for more traditional jazz, or even just simple pop music, without it sounding out of place? Thanks.

If the Gypsy Guitars are really harder to play...you might just want to get a bright sounding Cutaway Acoustic - that responds well to forceful picking.
I am no expert in that Style but if you listen to some of Al Dimeola's Acoustic stuff- add Vibrato...you would be close to the Gypsy Sound ...with the advantages of :
An easier to play instrument.

Using a conventional picking (mechanics)
[just really firm and hard mostly] attack ..

Which will also translate to Electric and Archtop- just lighter attack on most electrics.

...Obviously this won' t be exactly the Gypsy Style or' exactly' the Tone ..but you can start Playing it immediately ....not sure anyone can hear the difference between a 'rest stroke ' with the pick and and very firm picking with a firm attack and the timing and Vibrato and similar lines.....

[Frank67]

I think there is a real difference between reststroke and alternate picking in terms of the sound that it produces. The reststroke sound on an acoustic is very pleasing, IMHO. Michael Horowitz describes it well in his book.

Actually Birelli does change his hand position and picking quite a bit when playing arch tops as opposed to gypsy guitars. The picking strategy perhaps not so much. What remains is, of course, the incredible control and dynamics that the trained gypsy pickers have in the right hand. Same with Joscho Stephan when he plays electric. One can also see that in the older Joe Pass videos before he ditched the pick. It is a technique that I find incredibly elegant and strong.

I think well done music can always sound great, regardless of equipment and technique :-)

[Stringswinger]

Be careful when putting bronze strings on a Gypsy Guitar. They are built with very light bracing and are designed for light strings (10's).

You could probably go up to 12's in bronze and be OK, but beyond that there is a real risk of damage to the guitar.

[Hep To The Jive]

IMO GJ guitars only come to life when you play those rest strokes, from the arm, whacking the strings. No micro wrist rotation picking that might work so well on electric. I mean, my Gitane I can't play the way I play my archtops plugged in. It sounds like crap! Trying to play with proper GJ technique at least I can get a decent tone ala Django for a second. I still hate this Gitane though, only keep it because people always comment how unusual and unique it is (those who are not familiar this niche thing called GJ), and I can use at any situations where I have to worry about the safety of the instrument.

So consider that you need to play those guitars only one way to bring them to life, it's another minus for versatility.

[BigToe]

I think if you find a shorter scale GJ guitar it might be serviceable for other styles.

I like how Sylvan Luc approaches his tone. The OP might consider a hybrid nylon string for GJ and other acoustic styles of jazz.

[Robertkoa]

OK.
No doubt the Gypsies ( Gypsys)
have monster right hands and seem to have evolved a 'School' for those type of
Players.
And their attack is so ferocious that they have to 'back off' somewhat when they play Electric ( or even a Martin Acoustic ?).

I have not heard these Guys 'live'- so if you Guys say even a DiMeola type attack won't quite cut it...I defer to your experience.

Seems like the Gypsies ( and the special
Acoustic Guitars) compared to ' regular '
Acoustic Guitars are kind of like Classical vs. Flamenco Guitars and Guitarists...
Often a Flamenco Guitarist is more forceful and their Guitars are usually brighter and more percussive compared to Classicals....there is a lot of overlap in Technique but the Flamencists are really bashing the strings often at the very edge of the Fortè scale.
Sometimes the Gypsies sound like they will break the Guitar...lol.

Luthiers have told me that Gypsy Players are the hardest on frets years ago when I was looking into the EVO Gold wire...
I said " you mean the Guys who play like Django? "( this was a few years back ).... now I see why ...bashing the strings and vibrato....

But I should say- bashing the strings very eloquently and precisely- obviously.

@Hep to the Jive above-

Your term " micro wrist picking" not fully cutting it for GJ really made it clear to me. Good term.
Probably describes what I do except I am " up picking " which gives equal force to up and down strokes lots of speed/ rhythms and uniformity and works well on Acoustic or Electric...but I avoid hitting adjacent strings on skips and arpeggios so a pick 'rest stroke ' kills strong advantages for me ..
I am near the ' Vertical Limit' picking more up and down than side to side...
I pick hard sometimes but not enough to break the Guitar and they won't be able to keep up with AAP or advanced crosspicking which I use..whatever they call it ..and yes ..it will be fun to demonstrate this in the Future...

So then ...the OP would have to really adjust/ commit to the GJ technique to get the most out of one of these Guitars ?

[Stringswinger]

IMO GJ guitars only come to life when you play those rest strokes, from the arm, whacking the strings. No micro wrist rotation picking that might work so well on electric. I mean, my Gitane I can't play the way I play my archtops plugged in. It sounds like crap! Trying to play with proper GJ technique at least I can get a decent tone ala Django for a second. I still hate this Gitane though, only keep it because people always comment how unusual and unique it is (those who are not familiar this niche thing called GJ), and I can use at any situations where I have to worry about the safety of the instrument.

So consider that you need to play those guitars only one way to bring them to life, it's another minus for versatility.

If the only Gypsy guitar I played was a lousy Gitane, I would have a serious distaste for Gypsy guitars. And with the (difficult) required method of play, the poor lasting strings and the very un-American necks, these are not my favorite guitars to play (and I own two high end Duponts, a D hole and an oval hole).

In the Gypsy jazz world, there is a reverence for these guitars because Django played one. I would almost always prefer to play an archtop or a solidbody to a Gypsy guitar. And I respect Django as much as any jazz guitarist.

These guitars have their charm, and they project acoustically better than any archtop or flattop that I have played (My vintage Epiphones and my Martin D-28 are cannons, but pale in projection compared to my Duponts). That said a good resonator guitar smokes a Gypsy guitar for projection.

In the 1930's, there was a competition to build a guitar for jazz, as the guitar was replacing the banjo. Gibson came along with the archtop, Martin supplied the Dreadnaught and Selmer introduced the Selmer-Maccaferri. The marketplace spoke and the archtop was king (Epiphone and D'Angelico simply competed with Gibson using the Gibson design as a blueprint). Martins found their home among the Country music crowd and the Selmer guitar simply faded from the scene. The Gypsy jazz cult has kept it alive to this day.

But as I say, they have their charm and if played correctly with the proper strings, sound great (assuming that you are playing a good one). I rotate all of my guitars and have used my Gypsy guitars on regular jazz gigs. I always get compliments from other musicians when I do.

After playing a three hour gig on a difficult to play Gypsy guitar, a well set up archtop feels great. It is kind of like walking without the 50 pound backpack on a backpacking trip.

If it sounds like I have a love-hate relationship with these guitars, it is because I do.

[Frank67]

The gypsy reststroke is somewhat forceful, but IMHO mostly not from the arm. There maybe some who pick from the arm, but not the ones I studied (the one I studied most carefully for many hours is Joscho Stephan). There is obviously quite a bit of variety here - Joscho, Birelli and Stochello are all amazing players but their right hand techniques are recognizably different and Jimmy Rosenberg is/was very unorthodox.
The most typical motion (IMHO) is a rotational motion from a bent wrist that is entirely different then the sideways wrist motion used in regular alternate picking. The pick is slanted and there is slight edge picking involved. The pick moves from above the strings towards the top, not parallel to the top. That I found particularly hard to learn.

[Stringswinger]

The gypsy reststroke is somewhat forceful, but IMHO mostly not from the arm. There maybe some who pick from the arm, but not the ones I studied (the one I studied most carefully for many hours is Joscho Stephan). There is obviously quite a bit of variety here - Joscho, Birelli and Stochello are all amazing players but their right hand techniques are recognizably different and Jimmy Rosenberg is/was very unorthodox.
The most typical motion (IMHO) is a rotational motion from a bent wrist that is entirely different then the sideways wrist motion used in regular alternate picking. The pick is slanted and there is slight edge picking involved. The pick moves from above the strings towards the top, not parallel to the top. That I found particularly hard to learn.

Quite right. Those who use their arm are wasting energy. FWIW, Joe Pass and Larry Coryell use (used in the case of JP) Gypsy picking. In addition to the bent wrist, string changes always start with a downstroke, even moving from a high string to a lower one.

And since taking up this powerful style of play, I have been much harder on frets and have had to raise my action a bit. But I get great tone.

Here is a video of me playing my oval hole Dupont with Country music singer Ginny Mitchell. (The guitars are all acoustic. The other guitarist is playing a Martin D-41):

[Hep To The Jive]

If the only Gypsy guitar I played was a lousy Gitane, I would have a serious distaste for Gypsy guitars. And with the (difficult) required method of play, the poor lasting strings and the very un-American necks, these are not my favorite guitars to play (and I own two high end Duponts, a D hole and an oval hole).

In the Gypsy jazz world, there is a reverence for these guitars because Django played one. I would almost always prefer to play an archtop or a solidbody to a Gypsy guitar. And I respect Django as much as any jazz guitarist.

These guitars have their charm, and they project acoustically better than any archtop or flattop that I have played (My vintage Epiphones and my Martin D-28 are cannons, but pale in projection compared to my Duponts). That said a good resonator guitar smokes a Gypsy guitar for projection.

In the 1930's, there was a competition to build a guitar for jazz, as the guitar was replacing the banjo. Gibson came along with the archtop, Martin supplied the Dreadnaught and Selmer introduced the Selmer-Maccaferri. The marketplace spoke and the archtop was king (Epiphone and D'Angelico simply competed with Gibson using the Gibson design as a blueprint). Martins found their home among the Country music crowd and the Selmer guitar simply faded from the scene. The Gypsy jazz cult has kept it alive to this day.

But as I say, they have their charm and if played correctly with the proper strings, sound great (assuming that you are playing a good one). I rotate all of my guitars and have used my Gypsy guitars on regular jazz gigs. I always get compliments from other musicians when I do.

After playing a three hour gig on a difficult to play Gypsy guitar, a well set up archtop feels great. It is kind of like walking without the 50 pound backpack on a backpacking trip.

If it sounds like I have a love-hate relationship with these guitars, it is because I do.

I agree with everything you said. Only my relationship with GJ guitars better described as tolerate-hate I did play some upscale master built ones, and while they are more comfortable, they are still one trick pony to me. I do love Django music and play all those tunes in similar style, but I'm just not fan of the guitars, period.

Now resonator, yes! +1 on those. I think my new National will be THE GJ guitar for me. Just so much better!

[Frank67]

Right on Marc - nicely done!

i agree that archtops are more pleasant to play. I once tried to hang unamplified with a very powerful acoustic archtop with some GJ guys ... No chance, could not hear myself or could be heard :-(

but then there also is the subject of what the player hears vs what the audience hears. Maybe a point in case for a soundport?

[Hammertone]

I recommend Rodrigo Shopis or Shelley Park. For an all-rounder manouche guitar, I recommend a 25.5" Grande Bouche, Big D Mouth. I love the Big Mouths because I have one.
Rodrigo Shopis in New York City bends the top, giving it a pliage. He ladder-braces his guitars. Some day...Rodrigo makes a really cool 16" L5-shaped archtop with a Charlie Christian blade pickup and a manouche tailpiece. I hear it is ladder-braced with a pliage. Ask Rodrigo. There is a UK player who plays that guitar. His name escapes me.
Maurice Dupont, Alonso Le Dosseur, ALJ, Killy Nonis are all great European and UK manouche guitar makers. Michael Dunn has retired, I think.

I'm not a huge fan of the sound of the Selmer-Maccaferri guitar type, but I'll put a word in for manouche guitars built by Stefan Hahl in Germany. I've had the pleasure of playing Stefan's guitars extensively on a couple of occasions, and they sounded great to me. He also builds fabulous archtop guitars. Not cheap.

[Frank67]

Yes, Hahl is well known too in germany. I believe Birelli plays a Hahl and raves about it. I never checked one out or even heard one in person, so I cannot comment. The pricetag is hefty though and for me it is hard to imagine that one could do much better than Doderer or Volkerts.

[NSJ]

I would love to know of an affordable gypsy guitar that would work perfectly as a finger style jazz guitar.

I bought a Cigano but it was an absolute shit guitar. Tinny sounding, I quickly got rid of it.

I wonder if it's like a classical guitar we have to pay an arm and a leg to get a decent one. The thing about standard archtop jazz guitars, you can get a decent one for about a grand.

[Hep To The Jive]

I would love to know of an affordable gypsy guitar that would work perfectly as a finger style jazz guitar.

I bought a Cigano but it was an absolute shit guitar. Tinny sounding, I quickly got rid of it.

I wonder if it's like a classical guitar we have to pay an arm and a leg to get a decent one. The thing about standard archtop jazz guitars, you can get a decent one for about a grand.

Why would you want a Gypsy guitar for finger style? Even the good expensive ones are not very well suited for that, let alone the cheap ones. You basically answered your own question- archtops are better, and you can get a decent one without breaking a bank.

[Hammertone]

Yes, Hahl is well known too in germany. I believe Birelli plays a Hahl and raves about it. I never checked one out or even heard one in person, so I cannot comment. The pricetag is hefty though and for me it is hard to imagine that one could do much better than Doderer or Volkerts.

I spent a lot of time with Stefan at the Montreal Guitar Show (he attended for two years) and got to play a selection of his guitars - grande bouche, petit bouche, archtops, including a couple of Birelli's old guitars. I played all the other manouche instruments at that show and Hahl's were head and shoulders above the rest to my ears. I've played a few Duponts (owned by friends) that sounded…OK... to me. I've also played several of Bernie Lehmann's and Michael Dunn's guitars - really nicely made, but they don't sound anything like manouche guitars IMO. {ed: they sounded great, though. And I've met both of them a few times - both really lovely people}

[Thecytochromec]

I practice mostly with my Gitane 250M and it's awesome. It turns heads everywhere you gig. Even people who don't know much about guitars ask, "What kind of guitar is that and why is the hole so small?" People always surprised in the versatility of volume and tone. I couldn't be happier... wait... I have a high fret on mine so I could be happier. But really, I love it.

[christianm77]

Apologies if it's been said elsewhere, but:

Selmer Maccaferri guitars were originally nylon strung and designed for classical playing. The models with steel strings came out a little later and became popular with players of dance music (AFAIK) as Gibson style archtops were not commonly available in Europe.

Players of Selmer D hole guitars included Al Bowly and Oscar Aleman, among others.

This was true of both players in orchestras and smaller ensembles. The guitar was also popular post war with players such as Sacha Distel.

So not just Gypsy Jazz.

These guitars seem to be louder than most acoustic archtops especially for lead playing. I know Django wasn't much impressed by American archtops. On the other hand, I think archtops have more dynamic potential.

It's possible archtops may project better over distance - they are very different instruments.

In any case, my issue is that when I play a Selmer-Maccaferri with a GJ right hand technique. And can play literally anything - however non Django - and people think it sounds like Django. The tone colour and quality of that instrument is associated with that music now.

The other thing is that rest stroke picking - a common technique with plucked stringed players before amplification AFAIK because of it's ability to project - has become associated with Gypsy players (robertkoa - you NEED to hear a real Gypsy guitarist play to appreciate how much this technique can be made to project. It's almost painful.) Everyone else has forgotten, and the Manouche are among the few people left who play un-amplified ensemble plectrum guitar. But they have no special claim to the technique. I have seen Tres Cubano players use the same technique, for example.

TBH it feels like the strings have too high a tension for fingerstyle, but Oscar Aleman used a thumb pick and fingers, so I'm sure a hybrid picking style should work. Also bluegrass style technique would proabbly sound good on a Mac. Actually, I'm thinking of incorporating some crosspicking into my style, if I can get it together...

[Stringswinger]

I have watched Bireli close up playing his Hahl D hole and it sounded great. That said, I would bet that Bireli would sound great on a 1960's plywood Silvertone.

Michael Horowitz (Djangobooks.com) claims Hahl guitars play like archtops. Perhaps that is why Bireli stopped playing Duponts and went to the Hahl. Though lately, Bireli has been playing a solid body (strat style) guitar with his Gypsy jazz ensemble. Now an amplified solid body is great for leads in any style, but for rhythm guitar, they are terrible. Gypsy guitars are superb for that purpose. In fact, in a drummerless setting, I prefer the Gypsy guitar for rhythm than any archtop. More "crunch".

[christianm77]

I have watched Bireli close up playing his Hahl D hole and it sounded great. That said, I would bet that Bireli would sound great on a 1960's plywood Silvertone.

Michael Horowitz (Djangobooks.com) claims Hahl guitars play like archtops. Perhaps that is why Bireli stopped playing Duponts and went to the Hahl. Though lately, Bireli has been playing a solid body (strat style) guitar with his Gypsy jazz ensemble. Now an amplified solid body is great for leads in any style, but for rhythm guitar, they are terrible. Gypsy guitars are superb for that purpose. In fact, in a drummerless setting, I prefer the Gypsy guitar for rhythm than any archtop. More "crunch".

There's a video somewhere of Birelli playing a cheap guitar. Doesn't look like he enjoys the experience, but he sounds like Birelli. Will try and track it down.

IMO Rhythm guitar should be acoustic if there are no drums in the ensemble. That said, acoustic archtop sounds great too IMO.

The American rhythm style is so different from the Manouche thing. Apples and Oranges....

[iim7V7IM7]

I've also played several of Bernie Lehmann's and Michael Dunn's guitars - really nicely made, but they don't sound anything like manouche guitars IMO.

Bernie makes Gypsy guitars with both traditional ladder bracing (left) and also his own asymmetric double x-brace pattern (right). The latter is what I chose for my guitar by him and it is a bit less bright and has richer overall timbre. I suspect that you may have played one of these. It is a simply a fantastic sounding and playing guitar. I also chose 14-frets to the body and a shorter scale length of 25-1/2" (648 mm).

[Stringswinger]

Bernie makes Gypsy guitars with both traditional ladder bracing (left) and also his own asymmetric double x-brace pattern (right). The latter is what I chose for my guitar by him and it is a bit less bright and has richer overall timbre. I suspect that you may have played one of these. It is a simply a fantastic sounding and playing guitar. I also chose 14-frets to the body and a shorter scale length of 25-1/2" (64

I have played Bernie Lehman's Gypsy guitars and they are indeed wonderful instruments with great fit and finish. Like the guitars of Shelley Park, they do lack the trebles for a traditional Gypsy jazz tone. They are (like Shelley's guitars) a crossover guitar for archtop or flattop players who wish to dip their toes into the waters of Gypsy jazz, without fully taking the plunge.

[jazzbow]

After playing a three hour gig on a difficult to play Gypsy guitar, a well set up archtop feels great. It is kind of like walking without the 50 pound backpack on a backpacking trip.

Yeah, this is the main reason I sold my Le Voi.

The funny thing is when I bought the Le Voi oval hole the shop also had a Le Voi made dreadnaught that sounded a lot like the oval hole.

In hindsight I should have got the dreadnaught.

[Frank67]

To the knowledgeable crowd: i am wondering about a 25.5" scale gypsy guitar. Will it sound 'right'? I do get along with the longer scale but it is a bit of an additional struggle. People who have tried one and heard one please chime in

[callouscallus]

I spare the long winded post 😏It's definitely possible to get a great jazz tone on a gypsy guitar. Easiest to achieve a more traditional tone with a Stimer pickup
Your touch and chops make up the other necessary ingredients