Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..

**macuaig** · 08-14-2016, 06:51 PM

Originally Posted by Joe DeNisco

Johnny didn't play on the Jazz Samba album, did he?

No, and no connection from what I've been reading. (I'm listening to a fresh iTunes download of Moonlight in Vermont as I type, which is the Smith & Getz connection I uncovered around dawn this morning.)

**neatomic** · 08-14-2016, 06:56 PM

no..& apologies for the minor (but good samba diversion)

getz and johnny smith..moonlight in vermont..where or when..love to hear your take on this someday joe D..beautiful tune

cheers

ps- brass figlagee awarded

**Marty Grass** · 08-14-2016, 09:49 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Longobardi

According to Lin Flanagans interview with JS, page 182 of Moonlight in Vermont, " Smith terminated his endorsement with Gibson and entered into an agreement with Heritage. His frustration with Gibsons variance in neck shape may have been resolved, but correspondence between Smith and Gibson indicates that Gibson fell way behind in royalty payments" .

Johnny felt the Heritage was an excellent and consistently built instrument , but was not too crazy about the headstock - but could not persuade Heritage to change it. According to Lin, Johnny was happy until Heritage lost some of its key carvers and foreman. The new personnel brought their preferred working practices with them, and altered his design. On 2001 JS moved the endorsement to Guild.

The aforementioned is contained on page 182 of Lins book.

Sent from my GT-N5110 using Tapatalk

So Johnny started the headstock controversy!

Actually, the controversy occurred at about its inception.

Heritage did not lose any of its key folks. The foremen were the owners, and they never left until just a few years ago. But as Heritage got busier, the less senior guys assumed more tasks. These guys still had years of experience. The new personnel were almost all trained at Heritage.

**Marty Grass** · 08-14-2016, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Longobardi

I'm told, off the record, that only about 50 HJS's were made. It seems like there should have been more. I'll get a more solid answer in a couple of days. ( Martys quote)

According to Lin's book , Johnny received his first royalty check of $500 for 10 Johnny Smith Guitars in 1990. Heritage also claimed demand was picking up in Japan. Based on this - it seems highly unlikely that only 40 more were made over 11 years, producing only an additional $2000 royalty in a decade.

Especially from a company that according to your account did not keep records of models produced - only daily totals, of which most were destroyed in subsequent fire. The information your were given - seems inaccurate - as you already suspect.

Additionally, I would think the serial numbers produced in the early part of the agreement would be closer to Johnny's design ,than serial numbers just prior to the Heritage termination- based on my prior post.

Hopefully, the success of this model still leaves enough out their for us to sample.

He only got $50 a guitar? Kenny Burrell got $500.

**QAman** · 08-14-2016, 10:03 PM

Marty,
Lin's book states on page 182 " On March 26th 1990, Smith received a royalty check of $500 for the sale of the first ten guitars". Maybe it's meant to read each or I'm misinterpreting.

**QAman** · 08-14-2016, 10:09 PM

I'm merely quoting exactly what's in the book. Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-img_2624-jpg

**Hammertone** · 08-14-2016, 10:34 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

…. Kenny Burrell got $500.

Wow. If it is true that Burrell received $500 per guitar (I have a hard time believing that), that would have been a colossally bad deal for Heritage, and the previous owners would have been even worse businessmen than I had previously thought. All in IMO, of course.

**Jabberwocky** · 08-15-2016, 01:19 AM

"He (Johnny Smith) had reservations about the aesthetic design of the headstock, but he could not persuade Heritage to change it."

**Stringswinger** · 08-15-2016, 01:58 AM

I suspect that by the 90's JS was happy to still be getting royalties from the sale of guitars. Honestly, excepting a few jazz buffs, he had slipped into obscurity compared to the "guitar heroes" of the day.

KB, on the other hand, never had a signature model before his deal with Heritage (something that was long overdue, IMO, as I think KB is one of the all time great jazz guitarists). If he was able to negotiate a $500 per guitar royalty, good for him! (It does sound like a lot of money though...)

**Jabberwocky** · 08-15-2016, 02:38 AM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

He only got $50 a guitar? Kenny Burrell got $500.

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Wow. If it is true that Burrell received $500 per guitar (I have a hard time believing that), that would have been a colossally bad deal for Heritage, and the previous owners would have been even worse businessmen than I had previously thought. All in IMO, of course.

+1, Hammertone. $50 sounds like a more reasonable emolument. The dealer's cost on a KB is ~$3500. The break-even to produce a KB is ~10X the cost of materials, about ~$3000. A $500 royalty per guitar leaves Heritage with $0 profit.

Bad business, as Hammertone says.

**Stringswinger** · 08-15-2016, 03:13 AM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

+1, Hammertone. $50 sounds like a more reasonable emolument. The dealer's cost on a KB is ~$3500. The break-even to produce a KB is ~10X the cost of materials, about ~$3000. A $500 royalty per guitar leaves Heritage with $0 profit.

Bad business, as Hammertone says.

Perhaps it was a loss leader? Sometimes great craftsmen make lousy businessmen. They operate on the theory that they lose a little on each sale, but make it up in volume.

**Max405** · 08-15-2016, 09:43 AM

I am a sucker for the tapered thicker Binding in the cutaway. Its very sexy to me.
Like the Dimples of Venus. Heritage and Gibson seem to have mastered this.
JD

**Marty Grass** · 08-15-2016, 12:38 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Longobardi

I'm told, off the record, that only about 50 HJS's were made. It seems like there should have been more. I'll get a more solid answer in a couple of days. ( Martys quote)

According to Lin's book , Johnny received his first royalty check of $500 for 10 Johnny Smith Guitars in 1990. Heritage also claimed demand was picking up in Japan. Based on this - it seems highly unlikely that only 40 more were made over 11 years, producing only an additional $2000 royalty in a decade.

Especially from a company that according to your account did not keep records of models produced - only daily totals, of which most were destroyed in subsequent fire. The information your were given - seems inaccurate - as you already suspect.

Additionally, I would think the serial numbers produced in the early part of the agreement would be closer to Johnny's design ,than serial numbers just prior to the Heritage termination- based on my prior post.

Hopefully, the success of this model still leaves enough out their for us to sample.

Here's what I learned today. Johnny was finicky in his Gibson days, but that was NOT the reason he broke off with Gibson. He wasn't getting paid and was upset.

Bruce Bolen was Johnny's buddy and got him hooked up with Heritage.

Johnny was not dissatisfied with the work Heritage was doing. He was still finicky, but there was no real frustration.

Heritage built the Johnny Smith model for about a decade. The reason he broke of with Heritage was not clearly stated to Heritage. It may have been financial. Heritage did not make that many guitars. As a guess, there were about 60 made in the 10 years. Perhaps Guild had more potential for Johnny.

My source on this is Jim Deurloo at Heritage.

As an aside, I'm picking up my HJS in a couple of hours. It has been set up with TI GB 14s, including nut and saddle filing. The truss rod was adjusted, frets leveled, crowned and polished, and the pickguard was buffed out. The amazing thing is the cost. I supplied the strings and owe the luthier $50. That's incredible even for the Midwest.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-15-2016, 02:15 PM

Consider yourself blessed Mark! What's that amount of work cost in the real world, $450, if you can find a qualified luthier to do it? Not in Seattle.

**Greentone** · 08-15-2016, 02:25 PM

$500 was the royalty for the ten guitars. $500/10= $50 per guitar, a good royalty for an instrument.

**Marty Grass** · 08-15-2016, 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Consider yourself blessed Mark! What's that amount of work cost in the real world, $450, if you can find a qualified luthier to do it? Not in Seattle.

I just returned from Heritage. It's still a thrill to visit 225 Parsons Street, just as much as when I was a teen. Silly, I know.

Three of the guys I saw today have worked here for more than 50 years.

Here's the building throughout the years.

Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-225-parsons-street-jpg

Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-gibson-guitar-factory-parsons-street-09f146d88974379b-jpg

**Marty Grass** · 08-15-2016, 02:56 PM

Originally Posted by Steve Longobardi

I'm merely quoting exactly what's in the book. Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-img_2624-jpg

I also have Lin's book and enjoy it very much.

I didn't ask anyone at Heritage what Johnny got paid per guitar. That seems tacky. It probably shouldn't though because one of them blurted out a few years ago that Kenny got $500.

I'm still mystified by the comment about the foreman and the carvers. That doesn't sound right to me at all. None of the senior luthiers had left Heritage by the year 2001.

**Greentone** · 08-15-2016, 03:05 PM

I think MG's correct. New people had come on, but the old hands were still there and active, at that point. Marv Lamb, Jim Duerloo, etc., were still building instruments.

I don't know how aprocryphal this is but according to the late Patrick2 my Super Eagle was essentially build by Duerloo, with the neck rolled by Lamb and the finish by Floyd. Those guys had been around a long time. My SE is a 2001. (MG may know more about this SE...he used to own it, too.)

**Marty Grass** · 08-15-2016, 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Jabberwocky

+1, Hammertone. $50 sounds like a more reasonable emolument. The dealer's cost on a KB is ~$3500. The break-even to produce a KB is ~10X the cost of materials, about ~$3000. A $500 royalty per guitar leaves Heritage with $0 profit.

Bad business, as Hammertone says.

So it turns out what Marv Lamb said was that I would pay an extra $500 to have KB's name on the guitar. That would include retail mark up. He didn't specifically say Kenny gets $500. I now realize the implication.

Taken at face value, Kenny would have been paid no more than $250 per guitar and probably less since the markup from wholesale to retail on "options" is about 70%.

**Marty Grass** · 08-15-2016, 04:04 PM

Originally Posted by Greentone

I think MG's correct. New people had come on, but the old hands were still there and active, at that point. Marv Lamb, Jim Duerloo, etc., were still building instruments.

I don't know how aprocryphal this is but according to the late Patrick2 my Super Eagle was essentially build by Duerloo, with the neck rolled by Lamb and the finish by Floyd. Those guys had been around a long time. My SE is a 2001. (MG may know more about this SE...he used to own it, too.)

I got that SE from a friend in New York in a batch of three of them. It is the most beautiful SE I've ever seen, which is saying a lot. The finish is off the charts. Patrick got two of them, including Greentone's. The third one went to a friend of mine.

The "Lady Rose" was special ordered in that custom finish by Jay Wolfe. It also has triple ply f hole binding. On top of those extra features, it's a phenomenal guitar in feel and tone.

Joshua Breakstone really liked this instrument. Patrick let him try it out. Patrick sent me a pic of Joshua playing it, but I don't have that anymore. At the time Patrick was working on getting Joshua to be an endorsing artist for Heritage. That process was interrupted by Joshua's Asian tour and then Patrick's death.

Here's Joshua for those who don't know of him.

**Jabberwocky** · 08-15-2016, 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by Marty Grass

...

Here's Joshua for those who don't know of him.

That's a beautiful 70s L5CES, Dr. Marty. Thanks for posting that. These "derided" Norlin 70s L5s with "the witch hats that nobody likes" are getting a lot more recognition now! Bruce Forman plays another that I really like.

**Jabberwocky** · 08-15-2016, 04:54 PM

I'm inclined to believe that KB got $500 royalty both as a sign-on bonus and for the first one sold. $50 royalty is nothing to be sneezed at. Over 100 guitars, that is $5000 for lending your fame.

I hear that Gibson CS pays an original LP owner $100 for each Collector's Choice LP replica of his guitar sold. Given a run of 300 CC replicas, that is a cool $30 000 for replicating his guitar. Not bad at all for doing nothing.

**2bornot2bop** · 08-15-2016, 05:12 PM

The article is not specific, and ambiguous. I'm inclined to believe that JS got $500, each for the first 10 guitars. As to say when sells pick up the incentive is to negotiate more per guitar, as the article goes into "Japan interest doing well." Without the author specifying that quote is open to interpretation and misinterpretation.

The fact that KB got $500 for a SKB suggests he received the same amount per guitar JS may have received. Seems logical.

**neatomic** · 08-15-2016, 05:21 PM

in that case, george benson maybe the jazz guitar biz genius of all time...the difference in thomastik flatwound list pricing between his benson gauged sets and the jazz swings is 21$! a pack!!..in addition george has an ibanez guitar model and 2 fender amp models!!...he's a triple crown winner!!

les paul also had guitar/amp/string endorsements

burrell had amp and guitar..don't think string tho

cheers

ps- just thinking..johnny smith had many js guitar models, had the upward firing ampeg fountain of sound amp and had his own set of gibson strings..roundwounds with a flatwound heavy (58) E

Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-left-jpg

Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-left-jpg

Heritage Johnny Smith a Month later..-js-strings-jpg

**lawson-stone** · 08-15-2016, 05:53 PM

Joshua Breakstone endorsing Heritage? I can't see it. Not that he wouldn't like Heritage, but that he LOVES that old 70's L5ces. It's pretty much the only guitar he plays. For traveling abroad, he actually bought another old 70's L5ces exactly like it that a friend keeps for him to pick up upon arrival. Same finish and everything.

Actually reminds me of the Aria Pro II PE180 honey sunburst.

The guy likes his Norlin era L5ces's.

He reminds me of what they used to say about gunslingers in the Old West (USA): "Beware the man who only wears one gun. He knows how to use it."