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Looking for a smaller bodied guitar with a floater and tone as close to a big 17" (Like my Johnny Smith) as I can get, especially acoustically. Has anyone compared a Gibson Lee Ritenour L5 with a Heritage sweet 16? I had a L5CT acoustic years ago that I liked, but eventually found the 2.5" depth sounded like it was 2" in depth. Great neck, played like butter and was stunning to look at though. It sounded great plugged in, but I play more acoustically these days. I would really appreciate any help. Thanks in advance! Oh yea, I hear the Rits have nice chunky necks which I like. If I went with a Heritage, I may have to special order one to get it like that. I dont want a thin "plinky" sounding guitar, especially on the high E and B strings. The fatter thicker tone the better. I play with a pick and have a slightly heavy attack. Thanks again!
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01-12-2016 04:05 PM
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Thats a 17" guitar.
Anyone?
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Wait for Bluedawg to chime in.
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OK then, how about a Hofner New President, which is @15 7/8" wide, and full depth. These have floating pickups and tend to have bigger necks. Lovely carved-top guitars that can be played electrically and acoustically.
Originally Posted by Tag101
The JS has a 25" scale. The Hofner New President has a 25 1/4" scale. The Gibson Lee Ritenour has a 25 1/2" scale. The stock Heritage Sweet 16 has a 25 1/2" scale, but you can always ask for a shorter scale.
Last edited by Hammertone; 01-13-2016 at 03:53 AM.
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Disclaimer: I neither own, nor have played either model. But I do own several Heritage and Gibson archtops and hence I'll make an informed guess.
the sweet 16 has the bigger body. In general Heritage tends to carve their tops thinner. Hence for comparable Heritage and Gibson models, the Heritages sound more acoustic and the Gibsons sound more electric. Both great in their own right of course. Sweet 16s typically have set in pickups that will dampen the top while the Rit has a floater.
If you go the custom route, then I think you at probably better served with the sweet 16, floating pickup, neck to your specs. It will be much cheaper than the Gibson and will be more of an acoustic guitar. Of course, for the amount of money that the Rit would cost, you can also have a luthier make you a nice guitar according to your wishes. The only disadvantge (shared by the sweet 16) is that the resale value is not good. In this department, Gibson is probably alwqys the best.
Good luck
cheers
Frank
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Originally Posted by Jabberwocky
Who, me?
OK ......
I'm a Gibson fanboy ..... I loved the Lee Ritenour I tried out and would love to have one ... when you find a good Gibson it is hard to beat IMHO
But I've also had a Sweet 16 with a floater since way back in '92 and it has been a great guitar both electrically and acoustically
My Sweet 16 was my main gigging guitar in 2 big bands .... until one of my bands faded away due to the leader's health
My other band had to replace me when my real job sent me to Germany for 3 months a couple of years ago .... but they called me back to play bass so I'm still with them in that capacity
I think it's a win win situation ...
The Gibson has the pedigree and resale value and should be a really good guitar
The Heritage should also be a good guitar and will cost you less to obtain ...
If you can play before you pay that would be best, but I know that's not always possible
It should be easier to find a Sweet 16 in the various configurations (1 or 2 pickups or a floater) .... but even the L5 Signature can be found in various configurations if you are patient or ready to shell out some bucks on a custom order ... I think our fellow site member Danny W. owns most of them, though
If you decide on the Lee Rit ... don't be afraid to call up some of the Gibson dealers, like Rainbow, and throw out some low ball offers on stock that's been there for a while ... they would really like to move some of their Gibson archtops that have been taking up space for the last few years
Gibson Custom Shop L5 Signature Lee Ritenour | Rainbow Guitars
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I have just recently acquired a Lee Ritenour. So far i can't say much about the sound as i just restrung it with TI flat wounds and have played it only at home. It does not sound similar to my 1998 Legrand at all, more like my Korean d'Angelico but much warmer & darker. Though it's a 2014 model it has got a fat vintage quality electric sound which i normally would associate with much older instruments which have built in pickups.
It will take a while until i can say more about it, i'm not the fastest in getting used to a new axe and i will need a few live concert experiences with it before i can fully judge its potential.Last edited by JazzNote; 01-14-2016 at 04:00 PM.
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I've owned several Sweet 16's. If I was in the market for a guitar that sounds like a "Johnny Smith" I'd not consider a Sweet 16 to emulate its "fatness" of tone. A Sweet 16 is only 2.5 inches in depth...depth matters.
See Rodger's recent acquisition, which for all intents and purposes is a Sweet 16, with a single routed humbucker.
Having not played a Lee Rit' L5 I can't comment on their tone capabilities. But they sure do look nice.
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Not to contradict 2B on things Heritage, but the Sweet 16 is actually 2.75" (like my H-575 that he references). Funny, I had thought it was 3" but clearly not.
Heritage Guitar, Inc. of Kalamazoo - Hollow Body - Sweet 16
Still, I certainly agree about that depth being less compatible with a Johnny Smith sound than other guitars might be. I dunno, though, pickups really matter, and could make the difference...
Lee Ritenour gets an incredible, full body archtop electric tone out of his signature guitar. I'm sure the pickup has a lot to do with it. It just has so much PAFish chime and warmth despite being a floater. I've found that to be unusual and highly desirable.
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If you are willing to go custom order with Heritage, it's amazing how specifically you can have them build to your specific wants. I have a custom build H575 (or at least nominally an H575) on which they changed the woods, the tuners, the pickups, the neck profile, the body depth and even the scale length. Other than the neck profile it's not at all what would interest you, but if they'd go that far for me, I'm pretty sure that they'd go the same distance for you as well.
BTW, I've had mine for a bit over a year and it's almost certainly the best playing and sounding guitar I've ever known.
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Yes, thanks for the correction Roger... I knew Sweet 16's are 2.75" in depth...why I typed 2.5" is beyond me...but my point was that Sweet 16's, at least the few I've owned, both with a single routed humbucker, and those with floaters, sound thin compared to the "fatness" of a fuller bodied 17" archtop. Originally Posted by rpguitar
I attribute their thin sound to the fact that they're A) 16" B) their thinly carved tops, and C) their less than full bodied design...still, great playing archtops in their own right, without the 'fatness of tone' experienced from your average 17" archtop. That's been my experience to date.
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Thanks guys! Great info. If Heritage would make a sweet 16 with a round cutaway, big neck and 3" body depth, I think that would be the guitar. The Lee rit is smaller in body size (15 1/2 inches) and thinner by 1/8" than a stock sweet 16, so its hard to see the Rit sounding better acoustically. I have a really nice 575 custom that iz x braced with a floater, and it sounds great, but I prefer a Spruce top and longer scale. I am going to try and play a rit tomorrow at the music zoo. If it knocks me out, i may just grab it. I will drag my 575 along for a comparison.
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If I may, Tag101, consider a Steve Andersen Streamline which has exactly your specifications: 16" lower bout, round cutaway, and 3" rim depth. Steve has one planned for Spring 2016. For $5600, hard to beat. You may customise it with a big neck and a 25.4" scale length!
Streamline 16?
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Jabberwocky, that looks very interesting. The smaller builders scare me for one reason. Most have very delicate sounds that seem much more suited for fingerstyle. I have played and owned my share, but always come back to Gibson, Guild and Heritage. They have bigger fatter voices, while the smaller builders seem to go for a prettier tone. DeAquisto wen in that direction, and it seems most followed. Benedetto, buscarino,commins, lacy, monteleone, campalone etc. Actually, the campalones seem to be closest to what I think is "old style" but I had a special, and it went and my JS stayed. Same with a Buscarino Virtuoso and Monarch. Killer guitars, but thinner sounding. I like that huge, fat. Punch that a good Johnny Smith, L5, or Guild Artist Award gives. I though about having John Busc build me another, (fantastic guy to work with and impeccable quality) but I think tonally and feel wise I am going to be happier with gibson or Heritage. I sure would love to play one of these Andersons though! Perfect dimensions!!!
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Have fun in your guitar hunt .....
I love the acoustic sound if my Sweet 16 ... unless I play my Le Grand or Campellone 18" acoustic right before I pick up the Sweet 16
But if I pick up the Sweet 16 first it sounds great .... I've had the same set of Thomastik flats on it for years ... to my ears the flats tame the highs and bring out the bass ... which works best for my ears
I would expect the Gibson Lee Rit to be similar acoustically to the Sweet 16 ... but to be a little more mellow while the Heritage is likely to be a brighter guitar
Electrically they both have potential when matched up to the right amp ... and may even compete with your JS for tone in their own wonderful way
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Acoustically, the Sweet 16 is a better instrument than the Rit. Electrically, the Rit gets the nod. You have to ask yourself which matters more to you.
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Greentone probably sums it up as succinctly as possible.
Deep acoustic tone is mostly about volume, as in air volume inside the instrument, and thinly carved woods. If you're going to shrink the size of the bout, you need to deepen the rim depth to compensate. So a 2.75" deep 16" guitar is challenged to resonate like a 3" deep 17".
Not that all is lost. Solid carved woods, which have an inherently bright tone, will sound (ironically) more anemic when the instrument depth is shallow even while retaining loudness. But you can potentially get a deeper sound with laminate construction in a smaller box - at the expense of sheer loudness.
Complicated, isn't it?
But at least these factors are all related and somewhat predictable.
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The acoustic tone of the Rit does not impress me, i guess also because the top is thicker than any other of my archtops. But it did sound better acoustically with the round wounds than it does now with the flatwounds. I also think that the JS pickup on it is just great.
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Well,
This was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. I went to music zoo and dragged my 69 Johhny Smith along with me. I lined up an L5 P (Floater), a Legrand, the Lee Ritenour and my Smith. All acoustic at first. About 2-3 chords and notes on the Rit after playing the others, and I knew it was mine. Not that loud acoustically, but WHAT a tone!!! Zero harshness or plinky ness on the high E and B strings. As a matter of fact, I would call it a rather darker guitar, which is fine by me! Smooth as glass, and even tones all over. Rich with a nice bark and excellent harmonic content. It is stunning to look at, and the workmanship is as good as you will find from what I could tell. The neck is total perfection. Hand filling, with no bulk. Oh what a sweet guitar!!! Then I plugged it in, and it got even better. MUCH better. The pickup beat the BJB on the Legrand and L5 P easily. Slightly less out put, but richer and more even. Sounded very much like my 69 JS pickup. I could not be happier! This was my first purchase from the Zoo, and dealt with Mark. Fantastic guy to deal with. Gave me a KILLER price on the Rit, and a totally fair price on an R9 I traded in. I also really dug the the L5 P and Legrand, although this particular Legrand sounded muted compared to my old one and others I have played. The JS was like 25% louder. The Legrand was very warm sounding though, and I LOVED the fat neck! Much thicker top to back than my Smith. Damn. The L5 P was also a killer. DEEP, rich, smooth sounds. Wow! Every guitar was a winner. I want one of each. Well, at least I have 2 of the 4 now!
Thanks for all the great advice, and if you are wondering about a Rit, it does sound smaller than a standard size L5, but Gibson did not throw this one together. It sounds KILLER, and everything is well thought out. A total winner IMO. I will post some some clips and pics when I get it tomorrow. Thanks again for all the great info. Very much appreciated. You guys rock....uh, I mean jazz! 
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Originally Posted by Tag101
Well,
This was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be. I went to music zoo and dragged my 69 Johhny Smith along with me. I lined up an L5 P (Floater), a Legrand, the Lee Ritenour and my Smith. All acoustic at first. About 2-3 chords and notes on the Rit after playing the others, and I knew it was mine. Not that loud acoustically, but WHAT a tone!!! Zero harshness or plinky ness on the high E and B strings. As a matter of fact, I would call it a rather darker guitar, which is fine by me! Smooth as glass, and even tones all over. Rich with a nice bark and excellent harmonic content. It is stunning to look at, and the workmanship is as good as you will find from what I could tell. The neck is total perfection. Hand filling, with no bulk. Oh what a sweet guitar!!! Then I plugged it in, and it got even better. MUCH better. The pickup beat the BJB on the Legrand and L5 P easily. Slightly less out put, but richer and more even. Sounded very much like my 69 JS pickup. I could not be happier! This was my first purchase from the Zoo, and dealt with Mark. Fantastic guy to deal with. Gave me a KILLER price on the Rit, and a totally fair price on an R9 I traded in. I also really dug the the L5 P and Legrand, although this particular Legrand sounded muted compared to my old one and others I have played. The JS was like 25% louder. The Legrand was very warm sounding though, and I LOVED the fat neck! Much thicker top to back than my Smith. Damn. The L5 P was also a killer. DEEP, rich, smooth sounds. Wow! Every guitar was a winner. I want one of each. Well, at least I have 2 of the 4 now! Thanks for all the great advice, and if you are wondering about a Rit, it does sound smaller than a standard size L5, but Gibson did not throw this one together. It sounds KILLER, and everything is well thought out. A total winner IMO. I will post some some clips and pics when I get it tomorrow. Thanks again for all the great info. Very much appreciated. You guys rock....uh, I mean jazz!
That sounds awesome .....
I have the same problem when I try them out in Tucson at Rainbow .... I want them all
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Hammertone, Originally Posted by Hammertone
OK then, how about a Hofner New President, which is @15 7/8" wide, and full depth. These have floating pickups and tend to have bigger necks. Lovely carved-top guitars that can be played electrically and acoustically.
The JS has a 25" scale. The Hofner New President has a 25 1/4" scale. The Gibson Lee Ritenour has a 25 1/2" scale. The stock Heritage Sweet 16 has a 25 1/2" scale, but you can always ask for a shorter scale.
Nice Hofner. What's the asking price.
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Hi Steve. Originally Posted by Steve Longobardi
Ha! I don't have one for sale!
The picture is of my personal instrument, NFS.
….I'll start a separate thread for this.Last edited by Hammertone; 01-14-2016 at 10:13 PM.
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Hammertone ,
Thanks for all the info . I just listened to some examples on You Tube and was very impressed.
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As promised. I have had the guitar for 2 days now, and love it. At this point, I could not be happier. Its beautiful, plays like butter, and sounds great acoustically and plugged in. No harsh or brittle tones anywhere. Here is a quick clip running through a few different things (chord melody, Bbg chords and single notes) acoustically done with my Samsung phone. The typical youtube degradation, but its all I have. I will do some amplified clips when I get a little more time. Killer guitar!
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Great video! Originally Posted by Tag101
Sounds like rounds on it? I'm a fan of rounds with a floater
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