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I am usually a SS amp user, currently a powered speaker with a Zoom MS100bt going into it providing amp modeling (or perhaps "amp approximation" might be more accurate) and also an AI Clarus 2r with a Raezer's Edge 12" cab. I also have a tweed Deluxe (5E3) head and an early 70s Pro Reverb. I run the Deluxe head into the RE cab.
Originally Posted by Greentone
I had put together a semi-hollow Tele with a Vintage Vibe HCC pickup a while back and have been pretty happy with it. I'd been using it quite happily with the Zoom/Alto TS110a setup for a couple of months. Greentone's post made me think "I haven't tried the Tele through that yet," so I hauled out the Deluxe and plugged it into the RE. Holy smokes! The Deluxe is practically unusable with my archtops due to the strong bass response; even having added Bruce's Humbucker I & II mods and the Paul C mod and also some other cap changes to cut the bass, it's still so bassy that the archtops howl like banshees even at living room volume. But the Tele! Holy cow, it's a great match with the Deluxe and the HCC. While the hollowbodies do well with the Zoom/TS110a, the Tele really comes to life with the Deluxe. It's like the difference between a garden hose and a firehose.
I think I may need to buy a combo cab for that amp chassis and get a speaker; the head and speaker cab situation is kind of a nuisance to haul in and out of gigs. What speaker is a good match for jazz and the Deluxe?
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09-12-2015 01:39 PM
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Cunamara,
You are right on about the 5e3 Deluxe. It has an incredibly strong bass response. This is because the coupling capacitors in the preamp and power amp are all 0.1 mfd values, which pass bass frequencies right down to about 10hz without any rolloff. BOOM! This comes through the 12" speaker (or the RE in your case) as a very strong fundamental pitch on the E and A strings.
Many people have longed for a bass attenuator knob instead of a treble attenuator knob (that's what the "Tone" knob is) on the Deluxe. The alterations you mention are capacitor value changes to rolloff some bass sensitivity in the Deluxe. As it happens, with the ES-335, Aria PE-180, Heritage Super Eagle, Fender Telecaster, and Nash S-57 (Strat) that I rotate through on a regular basis, the stock Deluxe with a Jensen alnico magnet 12" speaker works great.
The bass is quite noticeable, however. On my 5f6a Bassman, for example, this can be tamed with judicious use of the bass knob (I keep it on about one). I also roll back the bass on my 15" Polytones and my Lab Series L-5...strong bass can be noticeable on SS amps, too.
Leo Fender made the Deluxe as an amp to mate with the Telecaster. You correctly note that the two sound simply superb together. I love to gig my Telecaster into the Deluxe.
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As for speaker versus amp it's easy enough to test. I have a Redstone cabinet with a 10" speaker and tweeter. I've compared the sound plugging it into my Henriksen head versus the ext. Spkr out from my Fender Concert with the internal speaker unplugged. To my humble ears, the Fender still sounds a lot better.
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Wikipedia has a nice technical overview discussing the factors that affect sound of tube amps (with comparison to SS amps). It might appeal to other geeks like me.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tube_sound
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I love my little Yamaha THR lunchbox. It's all SS but they seem to have modeled the tube sag on a Fender Twin quite well like nothing else I've tried. You can't really crank it too hard because real SS distortion combines with the modeled tube response to screw things up - but the THR was designed to play best at low volume and for that, it shines.
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Gemini II is an under appreciated Jazz amp! Originally Posted by Greentone
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Love the old Ampegs. They were pro amps.
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I think that the Quilter Mach II series has changed the game quite a bit. The one with the 10" speaker is pretty sweet.
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I hear what you're saying, but it's not that simple because some degree of amp/speaker pairing matters. When I plugged my Henriksen head into my tube amp's 12" open back cabinet the result was very bad. I think most SS amps are voiced for closed back cabs. When Henriksen put out their open back model, they went with a custom speaker. Originally Posted by Spook410
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absolutely good point Originally Posted by coolvinny
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Seems to me that the damping factor that most SS amps are designed for is incompatible with the open-back scheme of the typical tube, combo cabinet. Tube amps are designed around an entirely different damping factor.
An amplifier like the Fender tweed Deluxe has no negative feedback and uses an output transformer (as essentially all tube amps do). It has a VERY low dampening factor (ability to control the speaker's cone/voice coil movement) and sounds best in a cabinet using a very thin paper cone/light voice coil, open-back speaker/cabinet.
An amplifier like an AI is solid-state, uses no output transformer (like all SS amps) and has a fairly high dampening factor (ability to control speaker movement). It also, like nearly all SS designs, uses buckets of negative feedback to control distortion. This amp is going to sound less pleasing through an open-back cabinet with a 3ksp paper cone speaker (i.e., a Jensen alnico P12Q), than it would through a bass-reflex cabinet (tuned port) or infinite baffle (sealed) cabinet with a heavy cone speaker based around a heavy plastic voice coil. Since Class-D SS amps have gobs of power, it is no matter if the speaker is relatively inefficient compared to the lightly built Jensen.
Each amp has its own speaker requirements. This isn't an inviolable rule, however. The Lab Series combo amps made by Moog Labs in the 70s and 80s, and sold by Gibson, were high power (rated at 100 watts each amp measures at a full 150 watts on the bench--high power for the day) solid-state amps with open back cabinets. They sounded GREAT. I still enjoy mine.
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You can't disagree with my preference, you can only have a differing preference. And just for fun I'll add that if "a tube amp always sounds better" you contradict yourself endorsing the Kemper because it is not a tube amp. A Kemper sounds like SS because it is SS! Originally Posted by jzucker
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I honestly like both for different reasons outside the weight/size/portability issue. My SS amps excel at speed of their attack, fidelity of their reproduction and in some cases have different types of tone stacks for EQ adjustments. For traditional electric amplified archtop sound, I too prefer the euphonic warmth of a tube amp and the virtues of both the BF and Tweed tone stacks. But for solo play, my solid state set up really shines at conveying the natural sound of my guitar.
My $.02Last edited by iim7V7IM7; 09-13-2015 at 11:14 AM. Reason: Typo
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I have two gear questions that relate to the discussion so far:
1. Two-Notes Torpedo C.A.B. Have any of the SS users tried a CAB simulator like the torpedo CAB? Its size and power requirements make it pedal board friendly, and I wonder if it enhances your results when using a preamp and FRFR speakers.
2. Celestion Cream (not a Creamback) There has been some love expressed for the Celestion Gold. I have a Mesa Boogie Transatlantic 23, an open-back 1x12. My TA23 currently has a 90W rebranded Celestion Lead 80, which I do like.
I've been thinking of replacing the Lead 80 with a Celestion Cream, which also has an alnico magnet and which is billed as sort of the 90W big brother of the Gold 12 ("... while preserving the very essence of an alnico guitar speaker...The Cream has been specially created to bring alnico class to all kinds of amps from 1-watt to 90-watts..."). The discussion and buyer reviews I've seen are positive, but the price is almost $300, and not a lot has been said about this speaker. Also, to my surprise, at least one vendor offers Cream loaded 16 ohm 1x12 cabs (65Amps). I am curious to know if that is just to match their own amps, or if at the expense of volume, 16 ohms would be expected to otherwise improve performance when mated with an 8 ohm amp. Is there any experience with the Cream, or any thoughts about how it might be expected to perform in a TA23 cab?
Thanks for any insights you might be able to provide.Last edited by HighSpeedSpoon; 09-13-2015 at 06:13 PM.
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actually the AI sounds much better (to me) through an open back cab. I used mine through a 1x12 open back plywood cabinet with an emminence wizard speaker. Sounds great.
Originally Posted by Greentone
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I have a Logidy EPSI, which is a smaller cheaper and less featured Torpedo Cab. I use mine with a Barber Barb EQ and a Zoom MS100BT for effects trough two Mambo FRFR cabs. Best sound I've ever had. Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
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Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
celestion cream is still fairly new..so not surprised not much info out there yet…lookin at specs, its really just a higher power rated gold..nearly identical specs otherwise, with perhaps a slightly smoother bottom end…incidentally, gold has great bottom end..tight and focused but deep..not boomy at all
don't be influenced by 65amps..they have a vox inspiration and vox ac30's blue alnicos were wired @ 16ohms
i'd think the cream would be great in that mesa cab…if you need that kinda power rating..what head are you using??
and stick with rated impedence…match to your amp
lastly, you mentioned the creamback..and thats my fave non alnico celestion..has the closest to alnico bottom end and hi fi tone i've heard in a non alnico mag speaker..great
hope that helps
cheers
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The old Marshall heads when driving two 16-ohm cabinets (four 16-ohm Celestion speakers in series/parallel make a 16-ohm cabinet) in parallel yield an 8-ohm load.
Two single 12" 16-ohm cabinets do the same thing. In a Marshall head you get an 8-ohm load, which is ideal.
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Thanks very much jorgemg1984 and neatomic.
I'm getting less young (a bit under 70 Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
) and I've had arm injuries and surgery, so keeping weight down is really important to me. One solution I have in mind is preamp ==> CAB/Amp sim ==> FRFR speaker. I can put all the boxes and a Cioks DC5 power block on a 1.5 pound Metro board. The Amp sims (also part of the Torpedo) won't be the same as the real deal, but the Torpedo weighs only 1.1 pound and costs much less than a Kemper. So despite my great respect for the more experienced players, I would accept what this rig can't do and work with what it can do.
I would use a Quilter Mach 2 head (100w), and my backup is a Boogie Transatlantic 30 head (tubes, 40 Watts). So I'd really like the extra headroom even though I do not usually need it. Also, what little I've seen supports Celestion's claim that the Cream scales down well power wise. (It does not get stiff.) The Quilter scales well enough for my needs, and the Boogie has 15 and 30 watt settings available. BTW interestingly to me, several comments I've seen about the Cream also praise its low end (even at low volumes), which is what started me thinking about a speaker swap. Originally Posted by neatomic
The TA23 only weighs about 20 pounds unloaded, despite its size (18 x 23 x 12). With a 9 pound Cream, that puts it 29 pounds, a bit under the self-imposed 30 pound component max that I'd like to maintain. Not as light as the FRFR solution, but I can use a lot of gear that I already have.
Well, thanks again guys.
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SS amps are great for jazz and in some ways even preferable to tubes for warm clean jazz playing. The fast attack of SS state amps and no sag to speak of can really help keep things articulate and well defined. Tube amps can also sound great for jazz but they need to be well within their clean headroom range to do it IMO. Because once you have to crank the tube amp it will start to compress, distort, and possibly sag. That's great if your playing roadhouse blues or higher on the gain continuum but not ideal for jazz.
Last edited by Bobalou; 09-14-2015 at 05:29 AM.
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I understand your point. My main problem with Axe fx and Kemper was price and size - also frfr cab size was a problem to me. So when I found the Torpedo / Epsi and Mambo's small PA cab I decided to try it. No compromise, sounds better than my amps did - and I liked my amps. Originally Posted by HighSpeedSpoon
Thanks very much jorgemg1984 and neatomic.
I'm getting less young (a bit under 70) and I've had arm injuries and surgery, so keeping weight down is really important to me. One solution I have in mind is preamp ==> CAB/Amp sim ==> FRFR speaker. I can put all the boxes and a Cioks DC5 power block on a 1.5 pound Metro board. The Amp sims (also part of the Torpedo) won't be the same as the real deal, but the Torpedo weighs only 1.1 pound and costs much less than a Kemper. So despite my great respect for the more experienced players, I would accept what this rig can't do and work with what it can do.
I would use a Quilter Mach 2 head (100w), and my backup is a Boogie Transatlantic 30 head (tubes, 40 Watts). So I'd really like the extra headroom even though I do not usually need it. Also, what little I've seen supports Celestion's claim that the Cream scales down well power wise. (It does not get stiff.) The Quilter scales well enough for my needs, and the Boogie has 15 and 30 watt settings available. BTW interestingly to me, several comments I've seen about the Cream also praise its low end (even at low volumes), which is what started me thinking about a speaker swap.
The TA23 only weighs about 20 pounds unloaded, despite its size (18 x 23 x 12). With a 9 pound Cream, that puts it 29 pounds, a bit under the self-imposed 30 pound component max that I'd like to maintain. Not as light as the FRFR solution, but I can use a lot of gear that I already have.
Well, thanks again guys.
The only problem with going Torpedo and FR cab is lack of fx, which is a deal breaker for me. A barb eq, ms100bt and epsi setup is not much bigger than a torpedo and not more expensive and yelds much more possibilities (although the epsi is a little hard to set up but I am glad to help with that).
For an FRFR cab the Alto 10 seems amazing for the price! If you want really small and can pay the price you can't beat the Mambo.
If you want more info or help feel free to PM me.
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agree with Jorge. I have a kemper and a mambo. Love them both. The kemper is in a totally different league. Has the headroom of SS but with the tone of a great tube amp. However, for quick and light transport, the mambo is hard to beat and in practice I use it more than the kemper when I'm not playing pop music where I need the brighter sound.
As an addendum to that last thought, I'm going to be trying out their latest preamp which is fender influenced.
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A bit belated, but thanks again Jorge , neatomic, and Jack. I don't want to hijack the thread, but I greatly appreciate all the replies.
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In the Pizzarelli house, father Bucky and son John used a tweed Fender Harvard for YEARS for recording and gigging...Sinatra, TV, etc. ten watts. They now use small SS amps, of course. Ask Bucky about tone sometime, though, and he will likely start talking archtops/tweeds.
it's all good.
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I've found my Quilter Aviator Twin Ten has somewhat blurred the line between tube and solid state- to my ears it sounds and feels like a tube amp. The kind of sound I like is in that 40's-50's vein, usually a fat single coil pickup on a big archtop, through a small-ish tube amp. My Quilter delivers that sound nicely. The fact it is an open back cabinet with twin 10'' speakers helps with that 'old school' sound no doubt. I don't use the 'clean' channel, but I use the 'gain' channel, but there is really no break up until the gain control is beyond about 12 o'clock or so.
If I'm after huge, pristine cleans, my 1976 Peavey Session 400 does that super well. That amp weighs more than some cars, so it doesn't leave the house all that often. It does sound 'solid state' though, there's no break up, and the response to dynamics is far more immediate than the Quilter amp.
All the talk of tweeds has got me gassing for a tweed amp now though.
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