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Each tube preamp stage adds harmonics (generally the even order harmonics we like). A 12ax7 type tube is a 'dual triode' (the equivalent of 2 single triode tubes). Simple tweed amps have a single 12ax7 so that's 2 tube preamp stages, many blackface and later clean channels have 3 stages. All those tube stages adding harmonics on top of previous stages' harmonics adds up to some sweet tone (if done correctly).
SS amp makers are catching up. And with digital - change a 0 to a 1 or a 1 to a 0 in the right place and you start emulating all the goodness of a tube amp.
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09-10-2015 05:32 PM
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IME the 60's super reverb is the holy grail of clean tones.
But but the polytone sure is easier to carry....
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I have played over the years a great variety of highly sought after tube amps. At one time or another I have gigged with Fender Bassman, Super Reverb, Twin Reverb, Pro Reverb, Vibrolux Reverb, Showman, Dual Showman, Ampeg Gemini (II and VI), SB12, B-15, Vox AC 30, Marshall JTM 45, Teisco Professional (sort of a Marshall JTM 45/Fender Pro Reverb amp), Mesa Dual Rectifer, Mesa 22 Studio, and just about every Fender tweed amp ever made except the high power Twin Amp.
I have played with a large array of solid-state amps, from most of the Polytones, Spectra amps, the Ampeg B-15T, the AI with RE cabinet (NY8), most of the old Acoustic amps, most of the old Kustom amps, most of the Lab Series amps, and several Evans amps. Oh, yes: most of the Roland amps. Of the solid-state amps mentioned I have gigged with all but the Evans amps.
I have also played a whole bunch of Music Man amps that are hybrid--solid-state pre and tube power amps. They were excellent amps...among the best.
In general, I would agree with the observations that the colorations added to even the clean tones of the tube amps tend to be even order harmonics, while the SS add odd-order harmonics. Another generalization is that tone stacks matter. I used to be a 60s Fender blackface fan--chiefly the Deluxe Reverb, Pro Reverb, and Twin Reverb. Then, I tired of the Fender/Marshall/Vox tone stack--too scoopy. Worse, I never bonded with Mesa's EQ section in otherwise good amps. I liked the Ampeg tone stacks the best.
Polytone amps were perfect for me because they combined Fender warmth, low weight, zero maintenance, and Ampeg tone stacks. Perfect! I gigged with Polytone for 30 years. Great jazz tones.
Then, I found the tweed amps. The ones with just a "tone" knob seem best, to me. The Deluxe gives you warmth like a Polytone or Evans, combined with the best tone adjustment of all time. Set it at 6 and go. Two, interactive volume controls. For most work, set them on 4 and go. Control everything from the guitar. The ultimate volume is not as loud as an Evans or AI, but the sound is Chitlins con Carne Kenny Burrell...or Windy by Wes.
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i played through an old tweed, gibson amp from the '50s a few weeks ago. Very low powered but sounded amazing. No reverb but didn't miss it at all. One of the best sounds I've ever heard. I was trying out some guitars at the time. Old vintage X-500, X-175, Barney Kessel, L4 with dearmond, '67 175. Through that amp, they all sounded glorious.
Comparing it to any class D SS amp is laughable IMO but certain famous guitar players in early 2000s popularized what I call the dead, lifeless guitar sound and IMO, much like the poorly designed amps in the '50s and '60s that distorted, folks normalized these dead sounds and it became a "standard".
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I own two tube amps and 3 solid state amps. I have owned dozens of other amps over the years, some tube some SS. I would say that it is personal taste. No right or wrong answer here, nor is there any one size fits all equation. I have 20 guitars and enjoy mixing and matching them with my 5 amps. Some combinations sound better to me in certain rooms than others.
The only thing I know for certain is this: If you can find a guitar/amp combination that works for you in all styles and all rooms, you are one very lucky guitarist!
So far that trick has eluded me...hence 20 guitars and 5 amps
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I will make one qualitative observation: My 18 lb SS Quilter is as enjoyable in my 50's as my 85 lb tube Boogie was when I was in my 20's.
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give me fender ish tube amp , with a spring reverb ..... and a 12 " speaker and it's almost a sure good clean tone........... many people underestinate how much the speaker matters
but yes i agree with many above opinons of the ss amp being ...portable and convenient....but for my tastes NEVER better sounding tonally than a tube ampLast edited by Keira Witherkay; 09-11-2015 at 04:48 AM.
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By tweed deluxe are you talking about the 5e3 amps?
Originally Posted by Greentone
I love mine.
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Dead on with the Gibson amps. My Starlite is based on a late 1950's tweed Gibson GA-20T Ranger. The old amp was in very poor shape but a good portion of its electrical componentry was in surprisingly good shape. You are right, you won't miss the reverb. FANTASTIC tone. Now, isn't being faithfully restored. The basic circuitry was left the same but we made Channel 1 a volume only channel. Channel 2 can be a volume/tone control exactly as the Gibson Ranger was originally. It can volume/bass/treble controlled and is very Princeton like. It can also be a volume/bass/middle/treble controlled amp. The trem effect was dropped for the additional tone control features. Originally Posted by jzucker
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ummm...well...ya...I gigged for years with a MK III. VERY STUPID OF ME. When I finally bought a vintage fender and compared it to the mesa I couldn't get rid of the Mesa fast enough. Worst clean sound of any tube amp I ever owned. Originally Posted by MaxTwang
Ad a loud gig, it had a great crunch rhythm sound though!
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you need a kemper. I have sat my kemper next to the mambo, acoustic image, henriksen, gries-35 tube amp, BF Fender twin, deluxe, vibroverb, several super expensive dumble clones and i doubt anyone could hear the difference. I dumped my tube amps within a couple weeks and haven't looked back. Originally Posted by Stringswinger
I own two tube amps and 3 solid state amps. I have owned dozens of other amps over the years, some tube some SS. I would say that it is personal taste. No right or wrong answer here, nor is there any one size fits all equation. I have 20 guitars and enjoy mixing and matching them with my 5 amps. Some combinations sound better to me in certain rooms than others.
The only thing I know for certain is this: If you can find a guitar/amp combination that works for you in all styles and all rooms, you are one very lucky guitarist!
So far that trick has eluded me...hence 20 guitars and 5 amps
I still have the mambo though and I use it more than the kemper for clean stuff. It doesn't have a tube aspect to the tone but if you like joe pass joy spring it's the shizzle.
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Yes, 5e3. And KW is so right: speakers matter. JZ, I had forgotten all the Gibson amps. I used to play a tweed GA45t...amazing amp.
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But remember that the Quilter is specifically designed to sound like a tube amp. (At least attempt it.) Originally Posted by MaxTwang
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Originally Posted by jzucker
You've got me jonesing for a Kemper ........
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I'd love a Kemper but honestly it isn't very high on the list. I have some good amps. I'm more of a guitar guy than an amp guy. That puts any amp want behind playing and guitars.
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I'm not sure if the following comments relate directly to the solid state vs tube conversation, but one of the characteristics of my solid state amps that I most enjoy is the small head sizes, which encourages the use of head cabinet configurations. Being that the Acoustic Image heads that I use function very well with just about any ohm load 2 ohms and above means that I can use unusual speaker combinations to achieve sounds that wouldn't be available to me were I using tube equivalents.
My extension cabinets include 3 cabs of different sizes. The first is a 12" cab loaded with an Eminence EV clone which sounds very airy and acoustic. Next is a 2x8 cab that sounds more tube-like than my other options. Finally, I have a small 6" cab which I can pair with with the others to bring out some high end and get a fuller overall sound.
Another observation is in regards to the appearance of tube vs solid state amps. I find that tube amp builders take aesthetic considerations far more seriously than do their solid state counterparts. My Heritage amps are beautifully appointed with lovely cabs, tolex, and control setup; it helps that they happen to look great. My solid state Acoustic Image and Evans amps work well, but look like the workhorses they are rather than works of exceptional craftsmanship.
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Fender George Benson HRD is 43 pounds, 12" speaker, spring reverb, Jensen 100W C12K speaker, 40 W. Just sayin' Originally Posted by Keira Witherkay
give me fender ish tube amp , with a spring reverb ..... and a 12 " speaker and it's almost a sure good clean tone........... many people underestinate how much the speaker matters
but yes i agree with many above opinons of the ss amp being ...portable and convenient....but for my tastes NEVER better sounding tonally than a tube amp
Yes, I have one and it is growing on me. I still like the Polytone too though with its less than 30 lb weight and smallish size.
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Rereading the OP, the original question was (in my words) "are SS amps better suited to archtops and tube amps better suited to solid bodies?" Based on responses so far, I'd say most jazz guitar players don't think so. A good guitar will sound good through a good amp, whether it's archtop or slab. Looks like most folks on this thread prefer the sound of a tube amp and consider SS amps to be a compromise based on practicality.
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Kirkp +1
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I think people really underestimate how much the cabinet matters. I have a Raezer's Edge cabinet with a single 6" speaker that can cover basically any gig. Originally Posted by Keira Witherkay
I like tubes however I prefer SS with archtops. Solid bodies - tubes please.
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I agree with the people who have been stressing the importance of speakers.
I mentioned how lousy my laminate archtop sounds with my SF Twin with the original Jensen speakers.
However, I never got a better sound than playing my 30s D'A through an old tweed Peavey Vintage amp loaded with two 12 in. ball-busting SRO EV (coffee can) speakers.
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And there's a significant issue - the lack of options with 8" or smaller cabs. A simple tweed champ head sounds really good through a good cabinet, and as people have opined in this thread: A tweed deluxe is outstanding, a Valve Jr w/ Mercury Magnetics mods is pretty sweet. Simple, lightweight tube heads are possible but cab choices tend to be big, heavy and louder than is required for most stages - especially if you're being mic'd. Originally Posted by coolvinny
The trouble with multi-channel tube amps, IMHO, is multi-channel tube amps are engineered to not melt-down when using the distortion channel cranked; this leaves your clean channel over-engineered with a tendency to be 'sterile', 'stiff', etc. when compared to a simple single channel tube amp (i.e. tweed deluxe). The big transformers in multi-channel amps also contributes to the weight issue.
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+1 on "coffee can" EV SRO speakers. Some of the best speakers I have ever used. I have one on my bench now that I am waiting to put into an amp--EV SRO 15. Two 12" SROs in a Twin Reverb are spectacular.
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ev sro speakers are musical vintage classics…alnico magnets!! for full hi-fi sound…super transparent..big bottom end but tight, with clear full highs..other alnico classics of that era being the altec 417 and the jbl d series--12" & 15"….
only modern speaker i think in same category is wonderful uk made celestion gold 10" & 12"…40-50 watt rated alnico delights
know that alnico was the speaker magnet of choice till costs and shortages caused companies to turn to ferrite magnets…a decision not based on tone!..based on economy..and to power handling ability to a lesser degree…a 5lb ferrite mag can take 100 watt sine wave
viva the evo coffee can…
cheers
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Having used a variety of tube and solid-state amps over the years, I have never been more happy with my on-stage jazz sound than since I switched to AI amps and combos. The controlled dispersion from my Corus combo is a huge advantage over open-back tube amps--much reduced chance of feedback, tight but not excessive or boomy bass, doesn't need to be on a chair, takes little room, and puts enough volume out front so I rarely have to run a line to FOH with my big band. Even when I do plug in, the sound guys usually tell me I didn't need any help. As for "dead, lifeless", I much prefer that with the carved-top guitars I play, since the venues usually add all the extra life I could possibly want, and then some.
The fact that the amp weights 20lbs is a huge bonus, but I wouldn't play it if I didn't love the results.
Running a semi directly through one of these amps is another matter. I never do that directly, but always use a modeler. At home I use an Axe-Fx II through a Crown XLS1500 into a pair of Raezer's Edge extended range cabinets. The Axe lets me play with a variety of tube-amp sounds. My jazz preset is built on a Boogie Mark IV clean channel with an EV12L, but a button press swaps in a JC120 with a tweed 12. I have this as my global alternate preset, so whatever preset I'm using, stepping on the preset switch again takes me to my jazz tone--very cool. I use this preset with my carved-top guitars only; the semis always go through presets that are a little more rock & roll.
I've not been accepting any non-jazz gigs recently so I don't currently have a stage modeler, but I'll probably buy an AX8 when it becomes available, running that into the return on my Corus or Ten2. I've done that in the past with other modelers and have been extremely happy with the results.
Danny W.
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