High end guitars are for displaying, not playing!

**fumblefingers** · 07-08-2015, 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by pingu

a thought experiment for ya .....

if someone had the money

they could buy up lots of vintage guitars and
burn them ....

(yes they're crazy) but ....
would it be morally wrong ?

??

Not according to ISIL.

**Patrick2** · 07-08-2015, 08:39 PM

Originally Posted by fumblefingers

I play my beautiful Citation. I do not play it as much as my cheap, homely LeGrands (what with their pedestrian AAAA woods and limited yet perfect abalone and all).

i do not display my Citation, it's kept in it's case, right where it should be.

i figure I'm doin it about right.

In its case???? To the gallows with you . . . you balsphemous heathen!!

**Patrick2** · 07-08-2015, 08:44 PM

Originally Posted by rpguitar

All humans want some form of approval but some tend to seek it pathologically. (Or eschew it pathologically in some cases... both scenarios can end horribly!)

Typical jgf thread... I don't even know wtf we're talking about any more. I guess I'll go home and look at my nice guitars, then I'll play them, and seek my own personal approval of myself.

I seek and need approval from my wife, my children, my grand children and my God . . in that order. All others are unimportant to me.

**2bornot2bop** · 07-08-2015, 08:55 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I seek and need approval from my wife, my children, my grand children and my God . . in that order. All others are unimportant to me.

Receiving approval is great. Needing and seeking approval is a road going to nowheresville. Ever heard of the societal illness "Codependency?" Well there you go!

edit - People commonly know what social healing group "AA" stands for. "CODA", (codependents anonymous) not so much. "approval seeking" is wrought with immobilization that creates greater personal ills than the average individual is aware of. I mean, you only want your wife's approval right? And what becomes when she's not giving it?....not meaning you specifically, I'm speaking "approval seeking" in general.

Ask yourselves, how many adults with an unhealed child inside permeate society because they didn't receive their parents approval? And that's only for starters. Read Codependency No More by Melody Beattie and then we can talk.

**Spook410** · 07-08-2015, 09:40 PM

If you have a really nice guitar that isn't being played, loan it to Greece with the stipulation that they practice 2 hrs a day.

**zigzag** · 07-08-2015, 10:03 PM

To someone who is a player and appreciates all aspects of fine instrument, not to play it is a sin.

To a collector, the instrument's value is only to be seen and as an investment.

I remember a Northern Exposure episode where Maurice invests in a fine violin. He has a virtuoso violinist play and appraise it for insurance. The violinist ends up trying to steal it once he sees that Maurice is simply going to store it while its value appreciates. Maurice allows him to play it periodically from his jail cell.

I have nothing against collectors, but IMO, an unplayed instrument is worthless.

**Patrick2** · 07-08-2015, 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by 2bornot2bop

Receiving approval is great. Needing and seeking approval is a road going to nowheresville. Ever heard of the societal illness "Codependency?" Well there you go!

edit - People commonly know what social healing group "AA" stands for. "CODA", (codependents anonymous) not so much. "approval seeking" is wrought with immobilization that creates greater personal ills than the average individual is aware of. I mean, you only want your wife's approval right? And what becomes when she's not giving it?....not meaning you specifically, I'm speaking "approval seeking" in general.

Ask yourselves, how many adults with an unhealed child inside permeate society because they didn't receive their parents approval? And that's only for starters. Read Codependency No More by Melody Beattie and then we can talk.

Good points Greg. I'd probably have expressed my feelings better if I said that the only approval important to me was the approval of those I mentioned.

**Bluedawg** · 07-08-2015, 10:27 PM

Originally Posted by zigzag

.

To a collector, the instrument's value is only to be seen and as an investment.

My guess is there are different flavors of collectors .... we usually think of those who collect as an investment

I'm sure there are others who collect for beauty ... others based on personal favorites, brand names, models, and others based on ... whatever ..

and value is only a minor concern ... if a concern at all

I remember Guitar Player magazine used to feature cheap old Japanese guitars from someone who collected Tiesco Del Ray brand guitars

**Patrick2** · 07-08-2015, 10:45 PM

Originally Posted by Spook410

If you have a really nice guitar that isn't being played, loan it to Greece with the stipulation that they practice 2 hrs a day.

Can't do that. man. Angela Merkel will take it as colleteral for Greece's next bail out. Then Greece will default and Angela will offer it up on eBay. Then, some low life collector will buy it up and not play it often enough to please the anti guitar collector police. Then, those police will confiscate it and auction it off to real jazz guitar players at $0.25 on the US dollar. Then, those real players will take it home and never bring it out on a gig . . fearing that it will get dinged up or stolen. So, they'll keep it at home and gig their inexpensive guitars and become just like the rest of us low life collectors who are doing the guitars an injustice . . . and making them "sad" by not playing them often enough.

So . . might as well just leave them where they are. ;-)

**Patrick2** · 07-08-2015, 10:52 PM

Originally Posted by Bluedawg

My guess is there are different flavors of collectors .... we usually think of those who collect as an investment

I'm sure there are others who collect for beauty ... others based on personal favorites, brand names, models, and others based on ... whatever ..

and value is only a minor concern ... if a concern at all

I remember Guitar Player magazine used to feature cheap old Japanese guitars from someone who collected Tiesco Del Ray brand guitars

Yeah . . this is exactly correct . . as I see it. Anyone who is buying guitars in today's guitar market for an investment . . and putting their money in guitars with a market value below $50k . . . is just as foolish as those who invested heavily in penny stocks in the '80s.

The greatest ROI that a collector can realize when accumulating a collection of guitars below $20k per each, is the joy derived from the search for the guitar they're after . . and then from the conquest of acquiring them and enjoyning playing and/or oogling them.

**ronjazz** · 07-09-2015, 10:05 AM

Awfully defensive, there, Patrick. Looks like other people's opinions DO affect you.

**Hammertone** · 07-09-2015, 10:51 AM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

I seek and need approval from my wife, my children, my grand children and my God . . in that order. All others are unimportant to me.

Thank you, my son, but I would prefer that you put me in front of your wife, your children, and your grand children.
Lest I replace thine guitars with the spawn of Estaban, or turn all thine wine into water (those are pretty easy, actually - just leave your key under the mat and I'll be right over. Might be a bit delayed - I have to clean a whole bunch of creamed corn out of the back of the Gremlin).

**Patrick2** · 07-09-2015, 11:05 AM

Originally Posted by ronjazz

Awfully defensive, there, Patrick. Looks like other people's opinions DO affect you.

Well Ron . . the only defensive posturing [I believe] I posted was in my first respones to the OP of the thread. The rest of my posts were (or at least were meant to be) civil discussion and debate on opinions. The OP and I have long since kissed and made up, "as it were". (holy shit! I'm starting to sound like those Brit's with all of their wonderful little sayings that I love so much)

I do get quite defensive when I feel I'm being singled out, intentionally or unintentionally, and criticized and/or insulted. Sometimes I also rally to the defense of others that I feel are being unfairly treated as well. In this particular case, it was both myself and other collectors that I was speaking out assertively in defense of. As I mentioned, far too many times this whole matter of . . "guitars are instruments made to be played . . collectors are selfish self serving greedy people who can't play a lick and have no right owning such wonderful guitars unless they're going to be played regularly" .. is brought up and rehashed. Just as a reminder, here's the comment I objected to;

"Not gonna get philosophical about it and say "well what's the difference between this and a $10,000 painting you put on the wall to admire" or "what's the difference between this and a $10,000 comic that is slabbed by a grading company." My gut tells me this is somehow different. That it's somehow a slap in the face of the craftspeople who lovingly made these instruments. That even in a high-end collection the guitars are still meant to be played. That it's even offensive in a way."

I seriously doubt that there's any guitar collector anywhere who doesn't have at least the same reverence and respect for guitar craftspeople and/or luthiers . . as well as their works, as non collector players do. The suggestion that we'd willfully offend or disrespect those people or their works is insulting to me . . and I assume others as well

It's not the first time I've spoken out assertively on this matter. Unfortunatley, I suspect it's not the last time I'll have to do so either.

Hope that clears things up. :-)

**Patrick2** · 07-09-2015, 11:39 AM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

Thank you, my son, but I would prefer that you put me in front of your wife, your children, and your grand children.
Lest I replace thine guitars with the spawn of Estaban, or turn all thine wine into water (those are pretty easy, actually - just leave your key under the mat and I'll be right over. Might be a bit delayed - I have to clean a whole bunch of creamed corn out of the back of the Gremlin).

Bless me my father, for I have clearly sinned. But, I'll not re prioritze the afore mentioned. For, if you need a key to enter my home and raid my wine cellar, I fear you not!!!!!

(Now if you'll excuse me . . I'm off to seek shelter from a much anticipated lighting strike.)

**zdub** · 07-09-2015, 11:59 AM

As the OP, I wish I had the power to delete my post & the thread that followed. It was an ill-considered post that unintentionally created too much rancor among folks who are all here to celebrate their love of jazz and their love of guitar, be it as players and/or collectors. It would really be great if we could let this comment be the last word for the thread and move on to more pleasant conversations and more worthy debates.

**Bluedawg** · 07-09-2015, 12:49 PM

My new favorite smiley

**Hammertone** · 07-09-2015, 01:34 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Bless me my father, for I have clearly sinned. But, I'll not re prioritze the afore mentioned. For, if you need a key to enter my home and raid my wine cellar, I fear you not!!!!!
(Now if you'll excuse me . . I'm off to seek shelter from a much anticipated lighting strike.)

I'll talk to my people over at the Department of Lightening Strikes and Bleeding Statues and see if I can reschedule that activity. I assume no key is required as you will be home and we can work on turning that wine into water together. Sounds like fun!

As far as the subject of this thread goes, well, high-end guitars are for buying and selling, IMO. What anyone does after that is his or her own business.

**Para** · 07-09-2015, 02:09 PM

(holy shit! I'm starting to sound like those Brit's with all of their wonderful little sayings that I love so much)

Sorry Patrick but you'll never sound like us.

( I'm still considering if that's a good or bad thing, I'll have to ask Jabber)

**nickyboy** · 07-09-2015, 02:29 PM

I dunno - I suppose any one can buy whatever they choose to...just seems a shame to buy an guitar for the sake of owning it...I think I'd feel a bit of a fraud if I bought a super expensive guitar and couldn't actually play the thing.

Having said that..I very much doubt Stradivarius buyers take them out to gigs at the open mic folk club!

Whatever....

I bought some expensive guitar over the years and I just wanna play them!

**fumblefingers** · 07-09-2015, 02:46 PM

Insofar as I've been able to observe, luthiers don't lose any sleep over the fate of their handiworks after they've left the shop. My guess is that they take some pride in knowing that their instruments are coveted by guitar enthusiasts of every stripe.

**dallasblues** · 07-09-2015, 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by zdub

As the OP, I wish I had the power to delete my post & the thread that followed. It was an ill-considered post that unintentionally created too much rancor among folks who are all here to celebrate their love of jazz and their love of guitar, be it as players and/or collectors. It would really be great if we could let this comment be the last word for the thread and move on to more pleasant conversations and more worthy debates.

Nah man. It's all cool. There's nothing wrong with having an opinion and a discussion. That's the whole point of forums! Heck, I don't even mind if the same topics get rehashed from time to time. No one HAS to participate. Civility is nice though. Civil discourse can be enlightening.

**joe2758** · 07-09-2015, 03:47 PM

I used to collect wheat pennies

**Hammertone** · 07-09-2015, 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by nickyboy

...I very much doubt Stradivarius buyers take them out to gigs at the open mic folk club!….

What Strad owners do is quite interesting.
Many of these Strads are played extensively by people who borrow them (sometimes for many years at a time) from their owners.

There is one D'Angelico archtop being loaned out in a similar manner. I believe it was retrieved from a trash can.

**nickyboy** · 07-09-2015, 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by Hammertone

What Strad owners do is quite interesting.
Many of these Strads are played extensively by people who borrow them (sometimes for many years at a time) from their owners.

There is one D'Angelico archtop being loaned out in a similar manner. I believe it was retrieved from a trash can.

That's pretty awesome!
There was a great documentary on BBC a few months back BBC Four - Secret Knowledge, Stradivarius and Me I'd imagine it's on youtube somewhere...It was about a museum in Oxford that had the largest collection of strads together one place. Also great footage of landmark strads being played.
Worth a watch.