Trend of parting out old guitars...

[jzucker]

There is a company called vintage correct parts that are selling a number of old archtops with replacement pickups, tailpieces etc. I'm guessing that they are removing the old parts and selling them separately. I have seen '60s humbuckers sell for over $2000 each and in fact, they have a bunch of examples of PAF humbuckers selling for close to that price.

I have been following them for a while because some of the 175s they have are quite reasonably priced after the original parts have been replaced. I don't have a feel for how much the pickups contribute to the vintage tone.

[wintermoon]

funny, I was going to post about them yesterday.
they're the ebay king of guitar stripping.

kind of annoying to me, but they get big $ for the parts and they somehow manage to sell old wood w/new parts for top dollar as well. I think that's the difference between them and other guitar strippers, they put new parts on, some others sell stripped guitars w/no parts and have a hard time moving the empty guitar.

I sold a dead mint '59 ES-175D on feebay a couple yrs ago, and had numerous offers to strip the guitar.
I might have been able to maximize my return, but couldn't bring myself to pull parts off of a guitar that had been that way for 50+ yrs.

edited to add: the guy that wound up buying the guitar bought it for the parts, but couldn't bring himself to strip it either.

[wintermoon]

"I don't have a feel for how much the pickups contribute to the vintage tone"

they really do

[Greentone]

I have known people who contribute to this "industry." It exists because of the fact that the ES guitars--other than the 335--along with with Trinis, the BKs, etc., are all worth much less than the Les Pauls and the 335s. Here's the deal. In the 70s, so many of us "upgraded" to DiMarzio Super-Distortion-Napalm pickups and "better" tuners, that we hurt the value of our vintage guitars of the 50s/60s. Now, everyone is trying to restore the value of those Les Pauls. You need lots of donor Gibsons. Even Switchmasters and L-5CES guitars have been denuded for the great Les Paul restoration effort.

Then, it's rebuild time for the 175s, Kessels, Lopezes, etc., and see what you can get out of them. Probably THE most worked over guitar has been the ES-125. I don't know the last time I saw one with original tuners, bridge, and tailpiece.

Here's a science fiction story for you: what if rich people decided, after spending billions and billions on plastic surgery (the equivalent of super distortion pickups, Schaller tuners, and Fathead headstock mass pieces), that "original" or "vintage" is better? Imagine the scouring of the country for donor tissues? Would redheads become the donor ES-175s of that scenario? Yikes!

[BigMikeinNJ]

I saw this '58 Byrdland for sale a few weeks ago, if it was November I would have jumped all over it for that price, so seeing this thread I went back, found the ad and guess what, it's the very same people you're talking about. Shame on them.

BUT ya know for that price I would jump on it, I would love a '58 Byrdland... even if the pickups are now Seymour Duncan Antiquitys.


Vintage 1958 Gibson Byrdland Archtop Jazz Guitar L 5 L 5CES L5 1959 1957 ES 350T | eBay

[wintermoon]

" Probably THE most worked over guitar has been the ES-125"

125 parts don't bring much $$

I think it's the ES-175. they're the cheapest PAF equipped guitar, and the '57-60 models come w/other parts like the tuners and switch + tip that are interchangeable w/original period Les Pauls.

even the '62-'65 ES-175s, most of which had early patent number pickups, are valuable as the nickel plated pu's are interchangeable w/period ES-335s which are expensive guitars as well.

[jzucker]

so how much value do I, as a jazz guitarist put into vintage pickups? My feeling is that if replaced with decent, non-potted pickups, a '60s 175 could be a great value.

[fws6]

Yeah always makes me a bit sad and a bit angry. All the old Gibson ES175, ES5, etc models, all the nice jazzers, are getting parted out for people making Les Paul " replica" guitars.

1959 Orig Gibson ES 5 Switchmaster Shell with Case Vintage L5 Jazz Guitar | eBay

[fws6]

so how much value do I, as a jazz guitarist put into vintage pickups? My feeling is that if replaced with decent, non-potted pickups, a '60s 175 could be a great value.

Problem is that people who part out the guitars, also try to sell the carcass for more than its worth.

[wintermoon]

so how much value do I, as a jazz guitarist put into vintage pickups? My feeling is that if replaced with decent, non-potted pickups, a '60s 175 could be a great value.

I'm a jazz player as well, and have some very nice early to mid 60s Gibsons.
a guitar from that period w/replaced pickups will likely sound good, just not as good as the originals.

take the blonde '64 florentine L-5 you had. I bet that was a great sounding guitar, but you'd notice a difference w/replaced pickups.

[Franz 1997]

so how much value do I, as a jazz guitarist put into vintage pickups? My feeling is that if replaced with decent, non-potted pickups, a '60s 175 could be a great value.

I share the general feeling that 'parting out' is a real shame; it just feels wrong, tho' that may be illogical.

I also find the 'vintage correct' copy especially irritating, if not downright misleading. And how ironic that "Get it vintage correct!!!' is the slogan of the premier ebay stripping shop. What a joke.

But, I agree that buying a shell in good condition and putting good but non-vintage parts on it is a good way of acquiring a nice, if un-original, jazz box. I have a couple of early 60s Pat no pickups which I have tried in a couple of my various 175s and ( it's heresy, I know) the audible difference was very slight, if at all, compared to a good modern boutique paf, and to the original T tops. To me, other factors e.g. nylon saddles, wooden bridges, all the usual stuff, makes a much greater difference. In fairness, I haven't swapped a Classic 57 with a pat no., so don't know about that - I suspect that might make more of a difference.

One thing about the 175, though; maybe it's just me, but those repro zig-zag tailpieces where the wires don't nearly kiss the tailpiece bar like the originals did, just don't look right. Surely it can't be too hard; it makes you think they are trying to save on wire or something...

[Sam Sherry]

I don't have a feel for how much the pickups contribute to the vintage tone.

they really do

I've bought and fixed bundles of vintage-project guitars over the years. Based on that experience my take is this (and please pardon me if this is more detail than anybody but me wants):

Pickups: There are bundles of nice-sounding affordable and semi-affordable new pickups. If you are recording rock through a cranked vintage amp in a studio, there are nuances about old pickups which might rise above the mojo level. If you're playing jazz in a club, the nuances vanish as soon as the drums, bass, piano, horn and the TV over the bar kick in.

Fingerboards: I love the look and feel of Brazilian rosewood fingerboards and if properly handled they often last 1-2 refrets more than Indian RW. But as above, any sonic difference is truly marginal at most.

In contrast, on acoustic guitars, Brazilian RW back and sides does make an audible difference and we love it.

Pots & Caps: In my experience pots and caps have electrical value. Any perceived tonal difference between vintage paper-in-oil caps and generic modern mustard-drops is pure mojo.

Hardware: Tuners are tuners, especially if they weigh the same. A properly-fitted bridge is a properly-fitted bridge whether it is gold, nickel or chrome plated. If you ever see me paying big bucks for a vintage truss-rod cover please call the paramedics.

Summary: Project and/or husk vintage guitars are the only vintage Gibson I will ever afford. By all means please go out and pay top dollar for all those mojo-dripping closet queens so the value of my scungy rehabbers goes up.

OUT!

[wintermoon]

one thing I don't understand is where it ends w/part stripping.
there are only so many 1957-1960 Les Pauls and so many '58-'64 ES-335's w/their orig pickups removed.

after all this part stripping, and period guitars returned to original, there will almost certainly be an excess of PAFs and early patent number pickups than there are guitars missing their parts.

unless someone wants to hot rod, say, a 90's Gibson w/PAFs I can't see why the parts would continue to be so sought after.

[jzucker]

because there are companies making "better" les pauls that sell for $10k. I believe the folks buying those guitars want original gibson pickups.

one thing I don't understand is where it ends w/part stripping.
there are only so many 1957-1960 Les Pauls and so many '58-'64 ES-335's w/their orig pickups removed.

after all this part stripping, and period guitars returned to original, there will almost certainly be an excess of PAFs and early patent number pickups than there are guitars missing their parts.

unless someone wants to hot rod, say, a 90's Gibson w/PAFs I can't see why the parts would continue to be so sought after.

[John A.]

one thing I don't understand is where it ends w/part stripping.
there are only so many 1957-1960 Les Pauls and so many '58-'64 ES-335's w/their orig pickups removed.

after all this part stripping, and period guitars returned to original, there will almost certainly be an excess of PAFs and early patent number pickups than there are guitars missing their parts.

unless someone wants to hot rod, say, a 90's Gibson w/PAFs I can't see why the parts would continue to be so sought after.

because there are companies making "better" les pauls that sell for $10k. I believe the folks buying those guitars want original gibson pickups.

If the Les Paul forums are to be believed, there's also a counterfeiting industry, and it's easier to pass off a fake as genuine if it has, say, real PAF's.


John

[goldenwave77]

If the Les Paul forums are to be believed, there's also a counterfeiting industry, and it's easier to pass off a fake as genuine if it has, say, real PAF's.


John

Oh C'mon, we all know there were 10 Million baby boomers who attended Woodstock, and they all had a pre-CBS Strat or tiger stripe Les Paul at home to play guitar hero with.

[Hammertone]

I've stripped plenty of guitars for parts.

ES-175 and BK guitars are nothing more than plywood boxes designed to hold and preserve valuable hardware that can be used for Les Paul restoration, conversion and forgery. The popularity of "historic reissue" Les Pauls, as well as "historic make-overs," means that "homage" guitars can be added to this list - some folks want original vintage parts in these newer instruments, with no intent to deceive. Over the years, as ES-335 prices have risen, those guitars are no longer donors and have become recipients of this valuable hardware.

Gold-plated PAFs are worth less, but can still be used for restorations on Les Paul Custom/ES-345/355 guitars. It's possible to convert a gold-plated PAF to nickel-plated specs, but it's a pain. So L-5CES and Super-400CES guitars are good donors. Byrdlands and ES-340T guitars are often spared because their neck pickups are often "narrow-spaced", so they are useless for restoration/conversion/forgery purposes.

The "sound" of PAFs is irrelevant. They are important and valuable components. There are plenty of pickups available today that sound the same as / as good as / better than original PAFs.
Anyone who argues otherwise either has an agenda or is an idiot, IMO.

It's simply about money.

[Cunamara]

There is a company called vintage correct parts that are selling a number of old archtops with replacement pickups, tailpieces etc. I'm guessing that they are removing the old parts and selling them separately. I have seen '60s humbuckers sell for over $2000 each and in fact, they have a bunch of examples of PAF humbuckers selling for close to that price.

Here are several archtops they have forsale that have replaced pickups. I have been following them for a while because some of the 175s they have are quite reasonably priced after the original parts have been replaced. I don't have a feel for how much the pickups contribute to the vintage tone.

Vintage 1965 Gibson ES175D ES 175D 1961 1960 1963 Archtop Jazz Guitar L 5 ES 175 | eBay

Vintage 1957 Gibson ES 175 ES 175D 1959 1958 1960 Archtop Jazz Guitar L 5 L 4c | eBay

Vintage 1961 Epiphone Sorrento E 452T Gibson ES 125T ES 125 Casino 1960 1962 63 | eBay

Hmm, overpriced by quite a bit to me.

My other chronic hobby is bicycling. For a long time vintage Campagnolo components were all the rage (especially early Nuovo Record and Super Record). There were several guys on eBay who would take old components apart and sell them piece by piece- brake centerbolts, springs, pad holders, barrel adjusters, etc., priced so that if you bought all the parts you'd spend three times as much as just buying them complete. Enough customers must have gone for it to make it worth doing. This seems to have dried up now and old Campy stuff can be had quite reasonably compared to 15 years ago; the fixie/single speed craze seemed to have spelled its doom. But this stuff is perennial and will come around again.

I flatly don't get paying $2000 for a frickin' pickup. It's just a pickup and it's as close to duplicable as makes no difference whatsoever.

[wintermoon]

"So L-5CES and Super-400CES guitars are good donors"

well, fortunately the vast majority of those have narrow spaced neck pickups.

they made so few it's a damn shame to rape them, no matter what you may think.

[Patrick2]

so how much value do I, as a jazz guitarist put into vintage pickups? My feeling is that if replaced with decent, non-potted pickups, a '60s 175 could be a great value.

I think you've just answered your own question there. That being, the perceived difference to value ratio is subjective to your own conclusions. A few people here have said that there would be a noticeable difference, for the better. A noticeable differece . . for sure. But, for the better? Who's to say, for sure. There are 50+ year old pickups that sound great and there are also those in need of a magnet recharge, or don't sound so great for what ever reason. Some prefer the warmth and softness of the time weakened magnets. Some say they lack punch and depth of character.

My own opinion is that the sweetness of a very old humbucker such as an original PAF or a Patent Number *sticker* pup is best enjoyed in a solid body i.e. LesPaul, where the player is looking for that over driven sustaining wail direct from a Marshall type amp. This is where the PAFs shine through . . if you've got good ones. There are double whites, zebras and double blacks. There were different magnet types and lengths and no to pups were wound exactly alike. So . . . who's to say?

I've got a Gibson 1970-ish Patent Number *stamped* humbucker in one of my GEs. I love it. It's pretty much like the SD '59s in one of my SEs, but with a bit more depth of tone and less high end shrill than the SD. But, so too is the Seth Lover in another of my GEs . . . and so to is the Schaller Golden 50 in still another GE.

The funny thing is . . everyone seems to hear something different in the vintage Gibson pups. But, none of it is bad, if you've got properly functioning PAFs. You've got an L5 Wesmo that you said nails the Wes Montgomery sound. Its pup was made decades after Wes passed . . . and decades more after the pups in the guitar that created that tone we all love were made.

The best and least expensive way for you to determine if the vintage pup is the way you might want to go . . would be to call Jim Rolph . . tell him what you want to put the pup in and that you'd like to get as close to what Gibson was putting into the '59 and '60 ES 175s. In many people's opinions, he nails it closest. He dosen't make even a small fraction of pups compared to DiMarzio and Duncan. So, he puts personal focus and pride into each and every one he personally hand winds. He's pretty much a Kent Armstrong kinda pickup freak. If you do call him, set some time asside. He loves to talk and he'll chew your ear off. But, you'll get a wealth of knowledge and great advice from him.

Then, an easy switch out of the pup in your Wesmo . . . and you'll definitely hear a difference. Whether or not that difference is better than what you have . . or not as good as what you have, well . . . that's on you.

J. M. Rolph Pickups and Rewinding Service

[Hammertone]

"So L-5CES and Super-400CES guitars are good donors"
well, fortunately the vast majority of those have narrow spaced neck pickups.
they made so few it's a damn shame to rape them, no matter what you may think.

L-5CES, Super-400CES, and Switchmaster guitars made during the '57 to @'63 period (when PAF pickups were installed) happen to be worth lots of money, so it's usually not cost effective to buy them with the intent of stripping them.

[jazzbow]

Did anyone check the ebay shop for other vintage parts?

I get all the old pickup and parts deal but $45/£29/€41 for a Fender neck shim!?! Is that an original factory shim or a bitsa out of a guitar Techs spares box from the mid 80's?

Maybe one of my cereal box shims will turn up on ebay soon as an original.

I bet somewhere on the 'net theres a site on old neck shims and a dating chart.

[John A.]

Oh C'mon, we all know there were 10 Million baby boomers who attended Woodstock, and they all had a pre-CBS Strat or tiger stripe Les Paul at home to play guitar hero with.

If you remember the 60s you weren't there, and if you owned a 'burst, you didn't.

[DRS]

Parting out vintage instruments is the work of Satan.

[jazzbow]

If you remember the 60s you weren't there, and if you owned a 'burst, you didn't.

I don't remember the 60's because I had too much Lovely Sunburst Designs while riding in a newspaper taxi down Saville Row. Of course I was incredibly baked at the time......