Schaller M6 or Kluson Sealfast tuner mystery...

[2bornot2bop]

I've a set of new tuners that look identical to a pair of Kluson Sealfast tuners used on an early 70's Super 400 The tuners themselves have no markings on them. The box set has the usual inner grommets and screws as seen on the Kluson Sealfast tuners. Their weight feels as if they're very heavily constructed.

The mystery is the tuners came in an older Schaller box with a faded stamp on the box end that reads "M6 GOLD."

A google Schaller M6 search didn't turn up a single Schaller M6 that resembled a gold Kluson Sealfast as used on late 60's early 70's Gibson L5's and Super 400's.

Question 1: Did Schaller in fact at one time make a tuner that looked identical to a Kluson Sealfast?

I'll post photos of the actual tuner in question, but it looks identical to this tuner:

60's Gold Gibson Kluson Sealfast Tuners Grommets Screws Byrdland L5 Super 400 | eBay

Thanks in advance for the assist!

[Hammertone]

1. Yes.
But they do not look like the ones in the picture provided.
They look like this:

[rpguitar]

Maybe they are OEM Gibson tuners that someone replaced with Schallers, and stored them in the Schaller box for safekeeping?

[2bornot2bop]

1. Yes.
But they do not look like the ones in the picture provided.
They look like this:

Are you saying that, yes, Schaller produced a Kluson style bullseye tuner?

The tuners I have do NOT have the hand crank as do the tuners you displayed in the photo.

[2bornot2bop]

Maybe they are OEM Gibson tuners that someone replaced with Schallers, and stored them in the Schaller box for safekeeping?

I thought of that too, but wouldn't Gibson tuners possess a "gibson" marking on them? Or did Gibson begin stamping their name on their L5 style tuners much later?

These came with the buy of that early 70's Gibson Super 400. The original tuners were still on the guitar when I bought and later sold it.

[Hammertone]

Are you saying that, yes, Schaller produced a Kluson style bullseye tuner?
The tuners I have do NOT have the hand crank as do the tuners you displayed in the photo.

Yes, Schaller produced Kluson style bullseye tuners.
Sometimes they have the hand crank buttons, sometimes they do not.
The product is easily identifiable by the wide collar between the tuner body and button.

The tuners in the Schaller box are original Kluson Sealfast tuners, worth a pile of money.
They did not come with any Gibson markings.

Schaller M6 tuners made for Gibson on an OEM basis were marked with the Gibson name. Schaller did the same thing for various makers - Ovation, Hagstrom, Hamer and others.

[2bornot2bop]

The tuners in the Schaller box are original Kluson Sealfast tuners, worth a pile of money.
They did not come with any Gibson markings.

So you're saying my tuners are indeed Kluson Sealfast tuners, and they are NOT Schaller's? How can you distinguish the Schaller from the Kluson if Schaller produced a "bullseye" style tuner too?

Are these valuable because they're potentially OEM tuners? What value are we talking about? I thought the $995 price on feebay was nuts! For a set of tuners. The pair I have look nearly new without marks on them and the brass looks new.

Thanks S!

edit - Kluson didn't mark their late 60's to early 70's Sealfast tuners? Oh wait, are you referring to the fact that the shaft is different on the Kluson Sealfast's, where there's a nut on the shaft vs. the Schaller's on the Johnny Smith you posted had no shaft or nut before the body of the tuner?

[Hammertone]

So you're saying my tuners are indeed Kluson Sealfast tuners, and they are NOT Schaller's? How can you distinguish the Schaller from the Kluson if Schaller produced a "bullseye" style tuner too?

Post#6 "The product is easily identifiable by the wide collar between the tuner body and button."

Are these valuable because they're potentially OEM tuners? What value are we talking about? I thought the $995 price on feebay was nuts! For a set of tuners. The pair I have look nearly new without marks on them and the brass looks new.

@$500-600, IMO

Kluson didn't mark their late 60's to early 70's Sealfast tuners?

I have not seen markings on these Kluson Sealfarst or waffleback tuners. If someone has, please post pictures.

Oh wait, are you referring to the fact that the shaft is different on the Kluson Sealfast's, where there's a nut on the shaft vs. the Schaller's on the Johnny Smith you posted had no shaft or nut before the body of the tuner?

Give the man a cigar.

[2bornot2bop]

@$500-600, IMO

Even though they're very clean and appear nearly as "new", while the others are all beat up w/ faded brass listed for $1k?

Okay, so it's now my understanding that Kluson produced the Sealfast for Gibson, but I'm assuming not exclusively.

[Hammertone]

Even though they're very clean and appear nearly as "new", while the others are all beat up w/ faded brass listed for $1k? Okay, so it's now my understanding that Kluson produced the Sealfast for Gibson, but I'm assuming not exclusively.

The last couple of sets I followed sold in the $500-$600 range.
Maybe prices are up since I last checked.
I suppose one can ask for whatever one chooses.
Come to think of it, I don't know if Sealfasts were ever used by other makers.
I've seen them on Barkers and a few Strombergs.
Any others?

[2bornot2bop]

The last couple of sets I followed sold in the $500-$600 range.
Maybe prices are up since I last checked.
I suppose one can ask for whatever one chooses.
Come to think of it, I don't know if Sealfasts were ever used by other makers.
I've seen them on Barkers and a few Strombergs.
Any others?

The question I have is was Gibson using this same model tuner throughout the late 50's, 60's, and 70's? Every Kluson I've seen on late 50's and the 60's Gibson's looks identical to this tuner. Also when was the tuner discontinued?

[Hammertone]

The question I have is was Gibson using this same model tuner throughout the late 50's, 60's, and 70's? Every Kluson I've seen on late 50's and the 60's Gibson's looks identical to this tuner.

Yes.

Also when was the tuner discontinued?

Don't know when Gibson went to Schaller for these. Gibson presumably ran out of these, or Kluson couldn't make them anymore. Anyone?

[wintermoon]

I think the switch to Schaller came in the 80's

a set in that condition I'd say Hammertone's answer of $5-600 is about right, maybe a little more if you're lucky.
although I think I saw an almost new set sell for nearly $1000 once.

that being said, some have sold them individually for $90--$135, go figure.

I have a few sets of NOS for a rainy day, but bought them when they were around $200 a set.

[2bornot2bop]

Yes.



Don't know when Gibson went to Schaller for these. Gibson presumably ran out of these, or Kluson couldn't make them anymore. Anyone?

It feels like one very heavy tuner. Given it's use over decades it must have been well constructed.

I think the switch to Schaller came in the 80's

a set in that condition I'd say Hammertone's answer of $5-600 is about right, maybe a little more if you're lucky.
although I think I saw an almost new set sell for nearly $1000 once.

that being said, some have sold them individually for $90--$135, go figure.

I have a few sets of NOS for a rainy day, but bought them when they were around $200 a set.

kewl. Thanks for the assist WM!

[2bornot2bop]

I think the switch to Schaller came in the 80's

a set in that condition I'd say Hammertone's answer of $5-600 is about right, maybe a little more if you're lucky.
although I think I saw an almost new set sell for nearly $1000 once.

that being said, some have sold them individually for $90--$135, go figure.

I have a few sets of NOS for a rainy day, but bought them when they were around $200 a set.

Thanks again to you and Stephen for the assist yesterday. FYI, I listed them on feebay and reverb and they sold in 18 hours for the max price of $1k.

[Max405]

Nice! I happy for you 2B. Couldn't have happened to a nicer dude!
Joe D

[Hammertone]

Thanks again to you and Stephen for the assist yesterday. FYI, I listed them on feebay and reverb and they sold in 18 hours for the max price of $1k.

I guess prices are up since the last time I checked!!
I think that the superb condition of the tuners you sold supported the price you got. Vintage Correct, who are at the very top end of the price scale for vintage parts, has a set for $995, although the set you sold is clearly in better condition than his, which certainly makes a value difference. There's another set also at $995 as well - the seller's pix are not great and he didn't bother to shine up the tuners - my guess is that these will sell for less. I have a NOS set of these that I have kept for years in case I needed them for a restoration - now I'm tempted to cash out at that kind of price, heh.

[2bornot2bop]

I guess prices are up since the last time I checked!!
I think that the superb condition of the tuners you sold supported the price you got. Vintage Correct, who are at the very top end of the price scale for vintage parts, has a set for $995, although the set you sold is clearly in better condition than his, which certainly makes a value difference. There's another set also at $995 as well - the seller's pix are not great and he didn't bother to shine up the tuners - my guess is that these will sell for less. I have a NOS set of these that I have kept for years in case I needed them for a restoration - now I'm tempted to cash out at that kind of price, heh.

Yes I agree. Condition and presentation sells. In this case the owner was seeking to outfit his Gibson L5DC (double cutaway) with Kluson's...he doesn't care for Schaller M6's. I wanted to post the price so you'd have knowledge of what my set sold for....that's the least I could do since you went out of your way to assist me with identifying them. You always go out of your way to assist others like myself who are much less knowledgeable, and you should know it's most appreciated. Thanks again!

[Max405]

Great place. Great people here.
JD

[Epistrophy]

My Johnny Smith has Schaller M6s, that were screwed afterwards. Behind the headstock the old screw holes can be seen that probably were from those original Kluson Sealfast Bullseye tuners. Are those Sealfasts so expensive that the previous owner sold them to get a lot of money, I don't know, but I suppose. My Johnny Smith is from 1966. I bought the tulip heads to my Schaller M6s so that it looks more original. I could also buy Grover tulip tuners if I wanted it to be even more original because Grovers are used in some Gibsons, but then again there might be a need of doing the new screw holes behind the headstock, so I don't know if it really makes sense. I don't know if the Grover tulip tuners are identical to Kluson Sealfast Bullseye tuners when it comes to the screw holes of those tuners. 102GK rotomatics are the ones I would install, but some people say Schallers are better than Grovers, even if they are not as original as Grovers that Gibson uses nowadays, you know what I mean, because I don't know are those Grovers like Sealfasts used to be, but less expensive.

[Epistrophy]

I think LeGrand has Schaller M6s that have tulip heads. So when it comes to me, there no reason to change Grover tulips to get even more original vibe.

[abelljo]

I've a set of new tuners that look identical to a pair of Kluson Sealfast tuners used on an early 70's Super 400 The tuners themselves have no markings on them. The box set has the usual inner grommets and screws as seen on the Kluson Sealfast tuners. Their weight feels as if they're very heavily constructed.

The mystery is the tuners came in an older Schaller box with a faded stamp on the box end that reads "M6 GOLD."

A google Schaller M6 search didn't turn up a single Schaller M6 that resembled a gold Kluson Sealfast as used on late 60's early 70's Gibson L5's and Super 400's.

Question 1: Did Schaller in fact at one time make a tuner that looked identical to a Kluson Sealfast?

I'll post photos of the actual tuner in question, but it looks identical to this tuner:

60's Gold Gibson Kluson Sealfast Tuners Grommets Screws Byrdland L5 Super 400 | eBay

Thanks in advance for the assist!

Hi 2born, you say these are new. Where are they sold? I need a set.

Thanks!

[Neyzensia]

Friends, I just acquired a sweet 87 L-5ces and want to replace the gold, 2 screw Sealfast Bullseye tuners discussed here. Does anyone know if there are any Nickle tuners around that would match at least one of the existing screw holes? I’m wondering if the Grover Rotomatic tulips would be a fit for the the bottom screw hole? Any recommendations?? —Many thanks in advance!

[Hammertone]

Firebird tuners are now available from Kluson. Here:
VINTAGE DIECAST
They might fit the same holes as the Sealfast - not sure.
They are available in nickel-plate.
Firebird-style tuners on an L-5 - cool idea, heh.
I'm sure the fine folks who relaunched Kluson might have the answer.

[Jabberwocky]

Check out the Hipshot with the mounting plates. Guitar Tuner Upgrade Kits (3+3 Headstocks) – Hipshot Products .