Anyone going DI to a powered speaker for gigs?

[nosoyninja]

You could just go direct into the k8 from the zoom. It could be roland, digitech, or even a pod. All of those brands have multi-effects that include reverbs and eq's of all sorts. The PADI is unecesarry unless you need 10megaohms input impeadance.

I regularly use my zoom ms-50 direct to a powered speaker when I don't need the acoustic pickup sound. Real dead stupid simple setup that sounds great.

K

[Cunamara]

Kamlapati and nosoyninja, that's an interesting set of options. I am behind the times technologically- "dead stupid simple" is just about my speed. A powered speaker and a pedal would be nice and simple, keeping the PADI handy for the times I use my old flattop, which has a piezo but no built-in preamp. Now that you mention it, I suppose powered speakers these days usually have provisions for instrument in, line in and mic in.

you both seem satisfied with the Zoom products. There's an ms100bt on the local Craigslist for $90...

[nosoyninja]

you both seem satisfied with the Zoom products. There's an ms100bt on the local Craigslist for $90...

As long as you have realistic expectations from a 100 dollar pedal, you should be fine. I would of course prefer a much more expensive rig and a roadie to carry it all, but it can't be beat for ultra portability!

K

[eblydian]

Jorge,

I like your "simple version" and the idea to get rid of amps.

My question is: is the parametric ep and the rc booster in the Zoom MS100BT any good? Would I get far better results using an Empress Para EQ (or a Sansamp Para driver DI) going into a Lodigy EPSI?

And is this the Alto 10 you are referring to?
Alto Pro Truesonic TS110A - Thomann Luxembourg

I am using an analog / digital rig.

The very simple version an MS100BT (tuner, parametric eq, overdrive, delay, reverb and an rc booster as my "preamp") and an epsi for cab speaker simulatior.

The big version is MS100BT (tuner, overdrive, delay, reverb), Fromel Shape EQ (mids only), low cut passive pedal (does the opposite of a tone control of a guitar, my Guild is bassy), Barb EQ (blackface preamp) and EPSI (cab speaker simulator). All trough a Mambo PA Cab, I am getting a second one soon.

[Stevebol]

I decided to go this route- get rid of my Fender Super Champ XD and get a powered PA speaker. This is for home use. I'm going, Cordoba GK Studio-Boss ME 80-Boss-RC 300 Loop Station. A salesman the other day was raving about the QSC K Series but they're expensive. I might go for two 8" Samson speakers or something like that.

[DanielleOM]

I usually play with a bass player where we need guitar, bass and vocal. We normally play at small venues.


Guitar signal goes through a small zoom pedal where I have a little stereo chorus, and reverb. We take the stereo output and bring it to separate input channels on a Soundcraft EFX 8 mixer.

An Shure Beta 58 vocal mic goes to one channel.

I used to set up an instrument mic for the guitar and mix it with the signal from the pickup, have done way with that to make things a little easier in setup. (I have banged more than enough guitars against microphones as well :-) )

The Bass player plugs into a passive DI and goes to another channel on the mixer.

The stereo guitar inputs are panned left and right at the mixer.

We send the stereo to two JBL 10" powered EONs.

I sometime manage to convince the bass player to pan the bass a little to her side so that I am not overwhelmed by bass. We are usually able to angle the speakers a little bit so that we can hear them without having a monitor.

Danielle

[Cunamara]

I used the QSC K8 for a gig last weekend- bar gig with my usual quintet (bass, drums, trumpet, sax and guitar). It was recorded using an iPhone app and a mic from a table about 15-20 feet from the stage and off to the side. I used my archtop with floater and ran through an old MagicStomp pedal that I had sitting around to get some reverb. I had to run the volume on the K8 pretty high, it seemed like the MagicStomp didn't put out enough signal. The sound projection was good, slightly weak on stage where I was sitting but well present in the mix where the recorder was sitting. I was pretty happy with the sound, it is lacking a bit of bass when playing solo but that's not really an issue once the band is playing. I didn't have to be loud to be heard over the drums, it seemed to cut through pretty well. The next day I had a trio rehearsal and used it again, this time with the MagicStomp running into my Baggs PADI which bumped up the signal from instrument to line.

I'm pretty satisfied that I like this solution. So the next decisions are which powered speaker to buy and what to put between it and the guitar. The MagicStomp is at least 10 years old and I have some doubts about its reliability. I've more or less narrowed it down to a couple of options: the Zoom MS100bt and the SansAmp Para Driver DI. I am a bit leery of the latter because I have a SansAmp GT2 and don't really like it (it's got what sounds like a steep Fender mid cut and not enough EQ control to compensate; the other amp models sound even worse to me). But the PDDI has a full set of EQ, the sweepable midrange, etc., and an XLR out which is a nice touch, and so I might like that better than the GT2. The MS100BT has all sorts of stuff and the possibility of creating virtual signal chains of up to 6 effects/amps/EQ and is way more programmable from the pedal than the MagicStomp was.

[eblydian]

Even though I have never used a PADI nor a Sansamp Para Driver DI, I don't see why you are planning to put a Sansamp after the PADI. Or maybe I just got it all wrong. I do own a Zoom MS100bt and it is a totally different product. The long 6 effect/EQ chain allows to sculpt your sound to a great extent by using, for example, a booster, two para EQs, a graphic EQ, plus delay and reverb and you still have one spot left for noise gate if needed. Not to mention the online store where additional effects can be tried for 15 minutes before buying them for a couple of bucks. For that price it's a real bargain.

However this thread has got me thinking about getting a PADI. Despite its "acoustic" denomination apparently many use it for archtops as well.

[Cunamara]

Even though I have never used a PADI nor a Sansamp Para Driver DI, I don't see why you are planning to put a Sansamp after the PADI. Or maybe I just got it all wrong. I do own a Zoom MS100bt and it is a totally different product. The long 6 effect/EQ chain allows to sculpt your sound to a great extent by using, for example, a booster, two para EQs, a graphic EQ, plus delay and reverb and you still have one spot left for noise gate if needed. Not to mention the online store where additional effects can be tried for 15 minutes before buying them for a couple of bucks. For that price it's a real bargain.

However this thread has got me thinking about getting a PADI. Despite its "acoustic" denomination apparently many use it for archtops as well.

I understand the confusion. I wouldn't use the PADI with a SansAmp PDDI. The PADI has, I believe, a 10 meg Ohm input impedence and I think the SansAmp has a 1 meg input. The former is intended for a piezo coming straight in with no preamp and works really well for this. But I don't notice any real problem with the magnetic pickup from my archtop, it may choke the tone a tiny bit. I haven't tried this with my Tele yet. The PADI does bring the signal up enough that I don't have to crank the powered speaker.

i have a tube mic preamp that could go between the MS100BT and the powered speaker, since reverb and all the EQ could be managed in the Zoom device; could be the Zoom could put out a hot enough signal on its own, which would be the simplest solution: guitar -> Zoom MN100BT -> powered speaker. Nice, compact, transportable.

[Spook410]

For me, a small pedal board is not a whole lot more trouble than a single pedal.

- Prefer the Empress EQ because it appears to have a decent input stage (as well as a 1M impedance) for my K&K acoustic pickups. Like the controls being readily accessible with immediate visual feedback. Offline programming is fine in a multi fx box until you get some resonant feedback that needs to be dialed away or you want to tweak your EQ without flipping screens.

- I like the TC Electronic HoF reverb. Again, can access it without much thought

- Add/subtract a box or two depending on near term needs and wants. Sometimes run through the fx loop on a DTAR Solstice as it has a better input stage and you can hear it. I'm not convinced about the capabilities of the input stage of an inexpensive multi fx pedal. Of course, even with the DTAR, I may have to get a Grace Felix so I can be all snobbish about my tone.

[Cunamara]

So, after a couple of months of messing around with a bandmate's QSC K8 powered speaker and various intermediary devices (Baggs PADI, Magicstomp pedal, SansAmp GT2, etc.) I have settled on a rig at least for the time being.

I bought a Zoom MS100bt, which was discussed upthread, and received that yesterday. A perusal through the manual to learn how to create signal chain patches and I set up two basic patches: one of a hall reverb going into a model of a Twin and the other of a hall reverb going into a model of a Deluxe. There are enough EQ settings on the models to get a good sound (which in my case means much reducing the mid cut and softening the high end). I played around with the Zoom going into my AI Clarus and RE12 in the afternoon and then the QSC K8 at rehearsal that evening. With the Clarus it sounded good but the "Clarusness" was evident. With the QSC it was a bit thin but still nice; the K8 is a little lacking in lower end body especially with my Tele.

Today I bought a used Alto TS110a in excellent condition for $170 plus tax so $185 or so. The 10" speaker is more full sounding than the QSC K8- the thinness I noted last night is absent. The top end is roundish or smoothish, which I presume is due to the tweeter rather than a 12" speaker trying to generate the highs. It's very light, compact and sounds great. From the first few notes I felt very at home with the sound.

The combination of the MS100bt and the TS110a has so far been very easy to work with. I was surprised at how easy finding tones I like could be. The elusive "feel" is much like that of one of my tube amps but I maybe less sensitive to that than some. There are 98 effects in the pedal that I haven't even begun to check out (many of those are varieties of distortion so I will probably not find much use for them and there are some fairly gimmicky things) and more that can be downloaded. The first gig with this will be May 9 with a rehearsal or two before then. I am hoping to be able to just go to the gig with my case (with the pedal and cords in the string box) in one hand and the cab in the other- easy in and easy out- rather than with guitar, bag, head, cab...

I think my wife will be delighted that a combo amp, amp head and cab have disappeared from the living room- a happy wife is a bonus!

Also while I was there the store had a newly arrived Eastman AR371. I played that through the rig and compared it with my Cushman carvetop with a Classic 57 modified into a floater. There were definite differences in tone (as you'd expect) but I was surprised at how stupidly easy it was to find a really nice jazz sound with the Eastman. It needed a good setup- the nut was cut just a bit too high, there was too much relief in the neck and the action needed to be lowered. The neck width was very nice (1 3/4 nut). Intonation on all strings (D'Addario round wound .012s) was spot on. Build quality seemed very good for the price, not on par with a good ES-175 of course but then the price tag was 1/4 to 1/3 of the cost of a real 175. To my ears the tone was more reminiscent of the late 50s ES-175s instead of the later ones with thicker tops. I didn't buy it but am thinking about it.

[ronjazz]

Bose L1 systems with choice of DI or multi-effects pedal, or plug into the Tonematch mixer, find your sound, and save it.

[kamlapati]

Thanks for the detailed review, Cunamara.

A perusal through the manual to learn how to create signal chain patches and I set up two basic patches: one of a hall reverb going into a model of a Twin and the other of a hall reverb going into a model of a Deluxe. There are enough EQ settings on the models to get a good sound (which in my case means much reducing the mid cut and softening the high end).

Areyou really using just the EQ knobs in the amp simulator or do you addan EQ block as an effect? What settings have you settled on?

TodayI bought a used Alto TS110a in excellent condition for $170 plus taxso $185 or so. The 10" speaker is more full sounding than theQSC K8- the thinness I noted last night is absent. The top end isroundish or smoothish, which I presume is due to the tweeter ratherthan a 12" speaker trying to generate the highs.

Thecrossover is probably in the 2kHz range for both. I don't think manyjazz guitarists use much above that point, and I see you “softenthe high end.” The tweeter probably has very little to do withwhat you hear.

Thecombination of the MS100bt and the TS110a has so far been very easyto work with. I was surprised at how easy finding tones I like couldbe. The elusive "feel" is much like that of one of my tubeamps but I maybe less sensitive to that than some.

Yourear must be lot like mine. When I was playing my Strat I craved thetube amp sound. Now with my carved top guitar, and with the kind ofmusic I'm playing, I can get my sound out of much simpler setups,like my Polytone, my Fishman Loudbox, or with a little tweaking, a PAor powered speaker.

[Cunamara]

Thanks for the detailed review, Cunamara.

Are you really using just the EQ knobs in the amp simulator or do you add an EQ block as an effect? What settings have you settled on?

It's too early to have settled on anything yet, I am sure that much tweaking is ahead. Thus far I am using just the EQ provided in the amp model which includes bass, mids, treble and presence (so not the controls that are on a real Twin or Deluxe), plus gain and "tube" and choice of cab and mic strategy. I have the treble and presence rolled off a lot (15 and 8, respectively), the mids rolled up a bit over 50 and the bass full up. My carvetop is pretty bright sounding but the harsh edge on the top end I sometimes hear with my previous amps is much reduced. I haven't had time to plug in my Tele or GB10 yet. I'm also interested to hear my nylon string through this setup.

The crossover is probably in the 2kHz range for both. I don't think many jazz guitarists use much above that point, and I see you “soften the high end.” The tweeter probably has very little to do withwhat you hear.

Perhaps, I don't know enough about that sort of thing. I have no idea where the crossover is located. Well, now I do: 2.5 kHz.

Alto Professional - TRUESONIC Series > TS110A

Something I really like is that it seems much less directional than a traditional closed back guitar cab.

Your ear must be lot like mine. When I was playing my Strat I craved thet ube amp sound. Now with my carved top guitar, and with the kind of music I'm playing, I can get my sound out of much simpler setups,like my Polytone, my Fishman Loudbox, or with a little tweaking, a PA or powered speaker.

25 years back I gigged with my circa 1972 Pro Reverb (with two JBLs, I can't even move the thing any more let alone lug it up and down stairs, across parking lots, etc., like I once did without a second thought. It's sat in my living room in the same place for 15 years) and played with either by Ibanez GB10 or my G&L F100. I thought tubes were essential (well, comparing the Pro Reverb to a Crate solid state 2x12 that I had around the same time, tubes were essential). As I've gotten older I've wanted simpler, smaller, lighter setups. SS amps sound much better than they did and digital modeling of amps and effects has come a very long way.

[jzucker]

have you read any of my reviews of my kemper rig? I'm running it through an alto TS110A powered cab

[jzucker]

i disagree that jazz players aren't using anything above 2.5k. If you are using a fender tube amp, you certainly are. The range of a 12" guitar speaker goes up to ~5k. But I have found the crossover point to be irrelevant if you have any type of guitar cab simulator in your chain. The size of the speaker and crossover have no bearing on the tones I am getting. Nobody can tell i'm not using a standard guitar cab and it feels like a guitar cab in the room which is the thing I worried and complained about before I got familiar with mine.

[/FONT][/COLOR]It's too early to have settled on anything yet, I am sure that much tweaking is ahead. Thus far I am using just the EQ provided in the amp model which includes bass, mids, treble and presence (so not the controls that are on a real Twin or Deluxe), plus gain and "tube" and choice of cab and mic strategy. I have the treble and presence rolled off a lot (15 and 8, respectively), the mids rolled up a bit over 50 and the bass full up. My carvetop is pretty bright sounding but the harsh edge on the top end I sometimes hear with my previous amps is much reduced. I haven't had time to plug in my Tele or GB10 yet. I'm also interested to hear my nylon string through this setup.



Perhaps, I don't know enough about that sort of thing. I have no idea where the crossover is located. Well, now I do: 2.5 kHz.

Alto Professional - TRUESONIC Series > TS110A

Something I really like is that it seems much less directional than a traditional closed back guitar cab.

[COLOR=#333333]

25 years back I gigged with my circa 1972 Pro Reverb (with two JBLs, I can't even move the thing any more let alone lug it up and down stairs, across parking lots, etc., like I once did without a second thought. It's sat in my living room in the same place for 15 years) and played with either by Ibanez GB10 or my G&L F100. I thought tubes were essential (well, comparing the Pro Reverb to a Crate solid state 2x12 that I had around the same time, tubes were essential). As I've gotten older I've wanted simpler, smaller, lighter setups. SS amps sound much better than they did and digital modeling of amps and effects has come a very long way.

[Cunamara]

have you read any of my reviews of my kemper rig? I'm running it through an alto TS110A powered cab

Yep, that was where I heard about the Alto. The Kemper is a lot more than I want to spend or learn how to use, so this is sort of a scaled down version of that.

[Cunamara]

The size of the speaker and crossover have no bearing on the tones I am getting. Nobody can tell i'm not using a standard guitar cab and it feels like a guitar cab in the room which is the thing I worried and complained about before I got familiar with mine.

When I was experimenting with the QSC K8 I could tell it wasn't a traditional cab- it didn't have quite the heft that I get from a 12" cab (but then I have had the same experience with a traditional 8" cab) but it had other qualities that I liked- evenness of response across the tonal spectrum, sitting a bit better in the mix with the band, better detail in the sound, etc. The voice of the Alto TS110a sounds closer to my traditional amp and cab in terms of having heft and body to the notes, but it is also airier and has less directionality as well as the same improvement in detail and evenness. Bass response is definitely better with the TS110a than with the K8. So far I am very, very happy with this. I can really see this becoming my standard rig because it is so easy to get good sounds- I don't find myself going to the knobs on the guitar as much, I seem to be able to be able to get more tonal variation with my hands. The MS100bt sounds quality is very good and it does a pretty convincing tubeyness (lacking the smell of hot glass, though).

Today I got the Tele and the GB10 out and played those through the same patches on the MS100bt through the TS110a. I was very pleased with the GB10 through that; the Tele sounded a bit lighter or thinner than it does through my other setups (Clarus + RE 12" or tweed Deluxe head + RE 12"); still nice but I want to fatten it up a bit. I foresee having patches specific to different instruments with tweaks in EQ, maybe some compression on some, etc.

[kamlapati]

idisagree that jazz players aren't using anything above 2.5k. If youare using a fender tube amp, you certainly are. The range of a 12"guitar speaker goes up to ~5k.

OK, I apologize for using such a blanket statement, I know that's the enemy of reasonable Internet discussion, but I think I can support the statement.

Whether a Fender amp and cabinet can output up to 5kHz is not the only criteria. The output of the whole system needs to be considered.

The PU and the cable start to attenuate the signal well below 5kHz. The tone knob attenuates under 3kHz. If you roll off your tone to 5 (I don't, but I know many people on the site do) it will attenuate all the way down to 1kHz on most guitars. Do you roll off the treble on the amp EQ? Another link in the chain.

And of course, the guitar itself. 3kHz is three octaves above the high E string, similar to the notes and volume you get from the strings behind the bridge and above the nut.

My old ears, with admittedly reduced sensitivity to high frequencies,backs this up. When I roll off the tweeter on my Fishman Loudbox at 3.5kHz, I THINK I can hear s small effect in a perfectly quiet room,but I can't hear any difference in any other environment.

In our modern computer age it's pretty easy to experiment with this stuff. When I BOOST sounds above 3kHz on my archtops I get primarily finger noise. When I cut it, I'm not sure I could pass a blind test that anything had changed. Frequency analysis of audio files from my recordings show the output is down 30dB at 2.7kHz, and -40dB at 3.5kHz. Those levels are inaudible after MP3 compression or playing in a room with people talking.

I challenge you to do the experiment yourself. It should be easy with your Kemper.

I do think that whether audio above 2.5k-3kHz is important is very dependent on the kind of music and guitar you play. A finger picked flattop or an overdriven guitar move more of their audio energy up the spectrum. For me, who aspires to Johnny Smith and Jim Hall sounds, not so much.

ButI have found the crossover point to be irrelevant if you have anytype of guitar cab simulator in your chain. The size of the speakerand crossover have no bearing on the tones I am getting. Nobody cantell i'm not using a standard guitar cab and it feels like a guitarcab …

I totally agree with you on all this, but I think it can be interpreted to support my argument that very little audio energy is coming out of the tweeter anyway.

[jzucker]

Sorry but you're wrong. You're hypothesizing without using any real world evidence. I once put an emminence PA speaker in my fender amp.

(Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker)

It topped off at just above 2.3k before sharply spiking downword dozens of DB. I couldn't believe the difference. Absolutely no benson types of tones. It was dark and muddy and dull sounding. Unplugging it and plugging the standard speaker back in made a huge diff.

OK, I apologize for using such a blanket statement, I know that's the enemy of reasonable Internet discussion, but I think I can support the statement.

Whether a Fender amp and cabinet can output up to 5kHz is not the only criteria. The output of the whole system needs to be considered.

The PU and the cable start to attenuate the signal well below 5kHz. The tone knob attenuates under 3kHz. If you roll off your tone to 5 (I don't, but I know many people on the site do) it will attenuate all the way down to 1kHz on most guitars. Do you roll off the treble on the amp EQ? Another link in the chain.

And of course, the guitar itself. 3kHz is three octaves above the high E string, similar to the notes and volume you get from the strings behind the bridge and above the nut.

My old ears, with admittedly reduced sensitivity to high frequencies,backs this up. When I roll off the tweeter on my Fishman Loudbox at 3.5kHz, I THINK I can hear s small effect in a perfectly quiet room,but I can't hear any difference in any other environment.

In our modern computer age it's pretty easy to experiment with this stuff. When I BOOST sounds above 3kHz on my archtops I get primarily finger noise. When I cut it, I'm not sure I could pass a blind test that anything had changed. Frequency analysis of audio files from my recordings show the output is down 30dB at 2.7kHz, and -40dB at 3.5kHz. Those levels are inaudible after MP3 compression or playing in a room with people talking.

I challenge you to do the experiment yourself. It should be easy with your Kemper.

I do think that whether audio above 2.5k-3kHz is important is very dependent on the kind of music and guitar you play. A finger picked flattop or an overdriven guitar move more of their audio energy up the spectrum. For me, who aspires to Johnny Smith and Jim Hall sounds, not so much.



I totally agree with you on all this, but I think it can be interpreted to support my argument that very little audio energy is coming out of the tweeter anyway.

[kamlapati]

Sorry but you're wrong. You're hypothesizing without using any real world evidence. I once put an emminence PA speaker in my fender amp.

(Speaker Detail | Eminence Speaker)

It topped off at just above 2.3k before sharply spiking downword dozens of DB. I couldn't believe the difference. Absolutely no benson types of tones. It was dark and muddy and dull sounding. Unplugging it and plugging the standard speaker back in made a huge diff.

Now your the one making blanket statements. I'm not wrong, and I'm not basing the conclusion on only theory, I'm sitting at my workstation tweaking the EQ and listening right now.

[jzucker]

Now your the one making blanket statements. I'm not wrong, and I'm not basing the conclusion on only theory, I'm sitting at my workstation tweaking the EQ and listening right now.

If you can't hear the diff between a 2.5k speaker and a 5k speaker than the problem is elsewhere because I've done this experiment multiple times with the same results.

Anyway, i'm done here. If you think a guitar speaker doesn't need any more than 2.5k , more power to you. I know it's not true though.

[kamlapati]

No argument on what you hear with the speaker, I'm sure I would agree if I heard it. But that's not the same as saying the problem is with the high frequency response.

Speakers are notoriously not flat in response, and muddiness is usually a sub 1kHz issue, probably a sub 500 Hz issue. The speaker that you listed has a few dB bump between 100 and 400 Hz. This is where our ears are most sensitive too, we can hear a few dB bump in that range.

[pingu]

and muddiness is usually a sub 1kHz issue, probably a sub 500 Hz issue.

not true , muddyness is a lack of Hf

The speaker that you listed has a few dB bump between 100 and 400 Hz. This is where our ears are most sensitive too, we can hear a few dB bump in that range.

not true ears are most sensitive around 2.5 -3.5 K

[pingu]

Now your the one making blanket statements. I'm not wrong, and I'm not basing the conclusion on only theory, I'm sitting at my workstation tweaking the EQ and listening right now.

but what speakers are you listening too ?