Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups

**floatingpickup** · 10-20-2014, 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Groyniad

speaking to bill comins once, he stressed quite heavily that a second pickup in the top can work wonders for amplified tone (just in virtue of being there - not in virtue of being used). as far as i know neither he, nor very many others, produce many 2 pup archtops.

I expect that is true. I remember Jack Wilkins had a sunburst Benedetto Fratello with a floating pickup in the late 1980's. After a few years, I saw him playing that same guitar, but by then it had a single humbucker routed into the top. A few years later, I noticed he had a second humbucker added to it. I always wondered why he added the second pickup, assuming he wouldn't be playing through the bridge pickup. A few more years passed and I noticed he had a new blonde Benedetto custom made with two built-in humbuckers. If any of our NYC members get a chance, maybe they should ask Jack about his opinions. He is an amazing player and he actually experienced the same guitar, three different ways. I would love to hear his opinions on this subject.
Keith

**Danny W.** · 10-20-2014, 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

Not at all a shame, Navdeep. That would be similar to someone saying . . "Man, the fully acoustic variant of an L5, (the L5C) with a J Smith floater must howl like a banshee when you need to crank up the volume to be heard in a big band setting. A shame". Makes no sense .. right? You wouldn't bring your L5C to a gig with a horn section. Would you? Well, I seriously doubt that a solo guitarist would bring an L5CES to a small venue and try to play chord melody on it unplugged.

I have done some big-band stuff with a LeGrand and with a Lee Rit, so it's not like it can't be done. Either of these guitars is more manageable than a full-size L-5C with a floater as far as feedback goes, though. In any case, I'm much more comfortable paying an L-5CES in a big-band setting.

Originally Posted by floatingpickup

I play archtops exclusively on all my gigs (L5CES's, ES175's and acoustic archtops with floaters). I never play very loud, but I used to have my share of feedback trouble years ago. I never have a problem anymore. The one thing I changed, which seemed to eliminate my feedback problems, was the type of amp I used. I used to play through open-back vintage Fender amps (tweed, black-faced, silver-faced). When I switched to closed-back "jazz" amps (Polytones and an Acoustic Image head with an R/E cabinet), that was the end of my feedback issues. I believe there are two reasons this type of amp reduces feedback. First, closed-back cabinets are directional and can be aimed away from your guitar, with less "ambient" sound on the stage. Secondly, these "jazz" amps seem to be voiced differently than other amps. Jazz guitar amps are warm but not boomy. With some of my traditional tube amps, I had to turn the treble down and the bass up to get a warm jazz tone. This made the bottom end boomy and caused feedback. In the old days, I tried everything....F-hole plugs, a Van Eps string damper, etc. I never have do do any of that anymore and I can enjoy my archtops.

I don't mean to show disrespect for nice old tube amps. I loved them and miss them, but I just found they weren't a perfect match for my archtops.

Keith

I always play an L-5CES and often have to be at high volumes with my big band and have had much the same experience as you--playing through either an RE cabinet or an AI Combo greatly increases the volume I can achieve without feedback. It also greatly improves the consistency of my sound in a variety of venues. My Corus weighs only twenty pounds, so my back is much happier too.

Danny W.

**silverfoxx** · 10-21-2014, 04:25 AM

Hi Patrick2,
Again I must concur with your concise views on the merits of the L5Ces ,& Wes.
Having owned an L5C with BJB floater, more than 20 years ago, I can confirm that
it suffered extreme feedback at even moderate volume. For a clear acoustic
quality I liked my Eastman910CE with one Floater, but it had to go with a couple
of other guitars , to enable the acquisition of the L5CES , which is probably the
best instrument I've had ,believe me i've had shedloads.
The problem for us in the UK is that the simultaneous appearance of a new L5CES
and a Wes' occurs with the regularity of Father Christmas. Apart from which for
most of us the cost is prohibitive.

regards

**b_goat** · 11-01-2014, 11:04 AM

Hi All,

I'm finally getting to play the L-5...and I love it! It sounds great through the Carr Rambler and DRRI. Thanks again for all of your tips and guidance!

After checking around for pickguards, I ended up with one that cost $30 on eBay. I may change it out later, but for now I'm happy with it.

Attached are photos of the L-5 and my archtop collection (the Tal Farlow is in the For Sale section of this site).

Left to right:

Gibson L-5 CES
Gibson Tal Farlow
Moll John Pizzarelli 7-string
Ribbecke Halfling

Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups-l-5_couch_frnt-jpg

Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups-l-5_couch_frnt-jpg

Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups-l-5_couch_frnt2-jpg

Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups-l-5_couch_back3-jpg

Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups-l-5_frnt_closeup-jpg

Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups-archtop_collection_110114-jpg

**Patrick2** · 11-01-2014, 12:36 PM

Is that the new pick guard in these most recent photos?

**b_goat** · 11-01-2014, 12:46 PM

Hi Patrick,

Yes, that's the $30 special.

**2bornot2bop** · 11-01-2014, 01:08 PM

Nice archtop collection b_goat. Let me guess...is that mid to late 90's CES?

**Greentone** · 11-01-2014, 01:42 PM

Nice L-5.

**Patrick2** · 11-01-2014, 01:43 PM

Originally Posted by b_goat

Hi Patrick,

Yes, that's the $30 special.

Hmmmmmm . . . .

**b_goat** · 11-01-2014, 02:43 PM

Thanks, 2b and Greentone!

It's a '96 CES.

**floatingpickup** · 11-02-2014, 09:17 AM

I have used the bound tortoise shell PickGuards from AllParts on a couple L5's and they look great, very close to the originals. Here is the link:
Bound Tortoise L-5 Pickguard | Allparts.com
Keith

**Phil in London** · 12-15-2014, 09:56 PM

Just to add to the confusion re feedback, I have 2 almost identical L5s, 1989 and 1990, and one is more feedback-geared than the other. However, both howl less than my s400. And - open back Fender tube causes much more issues than Polytone, as was said above.

**Bebop Tom** · 12-16-2014, 12:46 PM

Originally Posted by floatingpickup

I expect that is true. I remember Jack Wilkins had a sunburst Benedetto Fratello with a floating pickup in the late 1980's. After a few years, I saw him playing that same guitar, but by then it had a single humbucker routed into the top. A few years later, I noticed he had a second humbucker added to it. I always wondered why he added the second pickup, assuming he wouldn't be playing through the bridge pickup. A few more years passed and I noticed he had a new blonde Benedetto custom made with two built-in humbuckers. If any of our NYC members get a chance, maybe they should ask Jack about his opinions. He is an amazing player and he actually experienced the same guitar, three different ways. I would love to hear his opinions on this subject.
Keith

I can certainly shed some light on this. I contracted Bob Benedetto to build me a guitar back in early 1990 (when he was less well-known, and his prices were reasonable). I wanted to retire my 1966 L5CES from gigging, and wanted a custom made L5CES style guitar. I was playing in a loud hard bop quintet with drums, acoustic bass (amplified), trumpet, sax, and me taking the traditional piano role on guitar. I played through a Twin Reverb. I was not sure if I wanted Bob to cut a hole in the top for a built-in pickup, feeling like this was destroying a work of art. However, I did not want feedback issues. Bob told me Jack Wilkins had received a Fratello with a floater, but he had asked Bob's permission to have a humbucking picking routed in afterwards due to feedback issues. Bob had no issues with that, and Jack had a repairman install the pickup. Bob asked if I wanted to speak to Jack, and gave me his phone number in New York. I called Jack and he discussed the guitar with me, and we spoke awhile about his old Gibson that was stolen from his car, and other jazz guitar related stuff. Jack was great to talk to, and I was quite star struck since I have always been a fan of his playing and owned his albums. I wound up ordering a Fratello CES with two built-in humbuckers because at the time all the high-end Gibson jazz guitars had two pickups. With the current popularity of custom made one pickup jazz guitars made by top luthiers, I would potentially opt for one pickup if buying one now. Why cut a hole near the bridge if the pickup is never used? However, the guitar never feeds back and has a perfectly even tone and volume throughout the entire neck. It is a bit quiet acoustically, and I sometimes wonder why the guitar does not feel very resonant. However, as soon as I plug it in, I feel like "OK, this is it"! I did not know that Jack Wilkins added a second pickup, but I did see that his blonde Benedetto had two. Maybe I did the right thing after all :-)

**floatingpickup** · 12-17-2014, 09:01 AM

Originally Posted by Bebop Tom

I can certainly shed some light on this. I contracted Bob Benedetto to build me a guitar back in early 1990 (when he was less well-known, and his prices were reasonable). I wanted to retire my 1966 L5CES from gigging, and wanted a custom made L5CES style guitar. I was playing in a loud hard bop quintet with drums, acoustic bass (amplified), trumpet, sax, and me taking the traditional piano role on guitar. I played through a Twin Reverb. I was not sure if I wanted Bob to cut a hole in the top for a built-in pickup, feeling like this was destroying a work of art. However, I did not want feedback issues. Bob told me Jack Wilkins had received a Fratello with a floater, but he had asked Bob's permission to have a humbucking picking routed in afterwards due to feedback issues. Bob had no issues with that, and Jack had a repairman install the pickup. Bob asked if I wanted to speak to Jack, and gave me his phone number in New York. I called Jack and he discussed the guitar with me, and we spoke awhile about his old Gibson that was stolen from his car, and other jazz guitar related stuff. Jack was great to talk to, and I was quite star struck since I have always been a fan of his playing and owned his albums. I wound up ordering a Fratello CES with two built-in humbuckers because at the time all the high-end Gibson jazz guitars had two pickups. With the current popularity of custom made one pickup jazz guitars made by top luthiers, I would potentially opt for one pickup if buying one now. Why cut a hole near the bridge if the pickup is never used? However, the guitar never feeds back and has a perfectly even tone and volume throughout the entire neck. It is a bit quiet acoustically, and I sometimes wonder why the guitar does not feel very resonant. However, as soon as I plug it in, I feel like "OK, this is it"! I did not know that Jack Wilkins added a second pickup, but I did see that his blonde Benedetto had two. Maybe I did the right thing after all :-)

Very interesting. I figured Jack did it to reduce feedback but I never understood the second pickup. I have three L5CES's and I agree that they are wonderful for gigging. Maybe that extra hardware is part of the reason they amplify so well. Although I love archtops with floating pickups, they can be problematic on gigs. I almost always play the CES's on gigs and leave the floaters at home these days. I wonder if a Wes would be a nice compromise between the two. I would love to get one and see how it handles the volume on a gig.
Keith

**Bebop Tom** · 12-17-2014, 01:02 PM

Besides the Benedetto, I do happen to own the 1966 L5CES and a Wes L5. The Wes is more prone to feedback, but it is manageable. I find that the two pickup L5CES has a quicker response when playing fast single note lines, but does not have as much acoustic archtop quality in its tone as the Wes L5. My Wes also has a deeper voice. My L5CES is a 1966 model, so it is different than a modern L5CES in that it has a Florentine cutaway with laminated back and sides, which is a factor in its tone. It also has a thinner neck, and the neck is lower in the pocket. The Wes L5's have a higher profile neck which requires the bridge to be raised higher. Perhaps this creates a different feel or tension. There may be less of a difference between a recent model L5CES and a Wes. My gut feeling is that purchasing a Wes L5 to compliment your three other L5CES's (if they are all modern era) may not be worth the expense, as the amplified tones may be very similar. I have also found that the Wes L5's Abr-1 bridge is heavier than the 1966's Abr-1, and the Wes L5's tone has more of the metallic bridge tonality. I have noticed a similar metallic sound on all the modern Gibson archtop video demos that have the metal Abr-1 and brass saddles. When I put brass saddles on the 66 L5CES the metallic tone was not as pronouced, although I went back to its nylon saddles because it sounded more like Wes Montgomery's tone from the 1960's. Folks that find the Wes L5 to be too thin or bright sounding should note that swapping the saddle for a wooden one, or swapping to nylon saddles, may significantly warm up the tone. I do not claim to know a lot about the mechanics of archtop building, but perhaps a heavier metal bridge does not transfer as much vibration to the body, and more of the saddles' tone becomes prominent. I have thought about buying a lighter weight abr-1 replacement with nylon saddles for my Wes L5 to make it sound more vintage. If I owned three similar L5CES's I would have different saddles on each (brass, nylon, wood) to get different tones before I would spend $5+K on a used Wes L5 just to try and get a different tone. If my three L5CES's were from different periods or had different pickups, then that would be a different story.

**Bluedawg** · 12-17-2014, 02:07 PM

The L5WES tone is different enough for me to have a WES and an L5CES.

I prefer the WES, but many folks here prefer the CES.

But then I have a collect them all mentality and I want one of the new Premiers with the floater as well.

I'm a big fan of Gibson archtops but I really don't like the thin necks on their 60s archtops ... but that's just me.

**floatingpickup** · 12-17-2014, 10:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bebop Tom

Besides the Benedetto, I do happen to own the 1966 L5CES and a Wes L5. The Wes is more prone to feedback, but it is manageable. I find that the two pickup L5CES has a quicker response when playing fast single note lines, but does not have as much acoustic archtop quality in its tone as the Wes L5. My Wes also has a deeper voice. My L5CES is a 1966 model, so it is different than a modern L5CES in that it has a Florentine cutaway with laminated back and sides, which is a factor in its tone. It also has a thinner neck, and the neck is lower in the pocket. The Wes L5's have a higher profile neck which requires the bridge to be raised higher. Perhaps this creates a different feel or tension. There may be less of a difference between a recent model L5CES and a Wes. My gut feeling is that purchasing a Wes L5 to compliment your three other L5CES's (if they are all modern era) may not be worth the expense, as the amplified tones may be very similar. I have also found that the Wes L5's Abr-1 bridge is heavier than the 1966's Abr-1, and the Wes L5's tone has more of the metallic bridge tonality. I have noticed a similar metallic sound on all the modern Gibson archtop video demos that have the metal Abr-1 and brass saddles. When I put brass saddles on the 66 L5CES the metallic tone was not as pronouced, although I went back to its nylon saddles because it sounded more like Wes Montgomery's tone from the 1960's. Folks that find the Wes L5 to be too thin or bright sounding should note that swapping the saddle for a wooden one, or swapping to nylon saddles, may significantly warm up the tone. I do not claim to know a lot about the mechanics of archtop building, but perhaps a heavier metal bridge does not transfer as much vibration to the body, and more of the saddles' tone becomes prominent. I have thought about buying a lighter weight abr-1 replacement with nylon saddles for my Wes L5 to make it sound more vintage. If I owned three similar L5CES's I would have different saddles on each (brass, nylon, wood) to get different tones before I would spend $5+K on a used Wes L5 just to try and get a different tone. If my three L5CES's were from different periods or had different pickups, then that would be a different story.

Bebop:
Thanks for all that info. Only one of my L5's is modern. The others are from all different eras - one with Alnico's, one with humbuckers and an L5C with a Floating p/u. They all sound quite different. I currently have wooden saddles on all of my guitars, including the L5's, and I agree that this makes a big difference. Sometimes I will put a tune-o-matic on one of the CES's. I like Graphtech saddles in the tune-o-matic because they sound quite warm but with with more sustain than wood. I like that sound, but I think I prefer the "thunk" of a wooden saddle. Every once in a while I find myself Jonesing for a Wes, because thats one configuration I don't have. Did you say your Fratello was about a 1990? I have a 1989 Fratello, but mine has a floater. They are terrific guitars.
Keith

**floatingpickup** · 12-17-2014, 10:01 PM

Originally Posted by Bluedawg

The L5WES tone is different enough for me to have a WES and an L5CES.

I prefer the WES, but many folks here prefer the CES.

But then I have a collect them all mentality and I want one of the new Premiers with the floater as well.

I'm a big fan of Gibson archtops but I really don't like the thin necks on their 60s archtops ... but that's just me.

I have the same problem. I want them all too!
Keith

**Danny W.** · 12-17-2014, 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by Bluedawg

I'm a big fan of Gibson archtops but I really don't like the thin necks on their 60s archtops ... but that's just me.

Believe me, it's not just you!

Danny W.

**Bebop Tom** · 12-18-2014, 01:18 AM

Originally Posted by floatingpickup

Bebop:
Thanks for all that info. Only one of my L5's is modern. The others are from all different eras - one with Alnico's, one with humbuckers and an L5C with a Floating p/u. They all sound quite different. I currently have wooden saddles on all of my guitars, including the L5's, and I agree that this makes a big difference. Sometimes I will put a tune-o-matic on one of the CES's. I like Graphtech saddles in the tune-o-matic because they sound quite warm but with with more sustain than wood. I like that sound, but I think I prefer the "thunk" of a wooden saddle. Every once in a while I find myself Jonesing for a Wes, because thats one configuration I don't have. Did you say your Fratello was about a 1990? I have a 1989 Fratello, but mine has a floater. They are terrific guitars.
Keith

Mine was delivered in 1991.