Gibson L-5 CES - One Pickup vs Two Pickups

[Patrick2]

Both the Wes and the CES are wonderful guitars no doubt. I have a CES, and I was lusting for a WES because I thought it would probably sound more acoustic. Also, the bridge pickup on the CES was occasionally rattling which was driving me completely nuts. Then I tried a WES and realized they are two very different sounding guitars. Both are very very nice, but to me the CES has a much more classic tone. The WES was too bright for me and even after fiddling with it for a long time, I could not get the same sound out of it as the CES. That killed my GAS for the WES for good. I fixed the pickup rattling and am very happy I didn't sell the CES. It's absolutely classic.

Just curious about the brightness on the Wes you sampled. Did you take into account string gauge? When I first got my Wes, I immediately replaced the TOM with an ebony saddle, and strung it with D'ad .012 Chrome flat wounds . . . which was my string of choice at the time. I noticed the brightness as well. I re strung it with .013 TI Jazz Swings. It's still not the same as the CES . . but, the TIs did bring the tone more into a balance. It's not nearly as bright as it was with the D'ad's.

Another thing I noticed about my Wes, is the neck profile. It's much more robust, chunky. Shoulders are more prominent. I kinda like that. I've got several arch tops . . and realizing that I am playing a totaly different guitar when I switch from one to another is an enjoyable thing, for me. If every one of my arch tops played and sounded exactly alike . . what fun would that be??

[wintermoon]

"consider a change out of the pup covers which were corroded by the gassing of the guard"

nah, don't touch the covers on this one--that's a very minor bit of corrosion on that guitar's covers, you'll put a bit of wear there anyway just playing it.

as Keith said it's a bit unusual to see a guard deteriorating that was only made 18 yrs ago, but I recently replaced a replacement guard on my '69 L-5 that I installed only 23 yrs. ago, and this was on a gigging guitar that wasn't cooped up in a case for yrs, so yes it can happen

"I'd want a valve amp if I really wanted that smokey tone you're seeking"

a what amp? I thought you were from Joisey.
next thing you're gonna want some fish and chips.....

[Bluedawg]

Bluedawg: what kind of speaker do you have in the Rambler? I changed mine out b/c the amp is too clean.

b_goat

I have an older Rambler with the original Kingpin speaker

What did you put in yours?

I've thought about swapping it out .. but just haven't got around to messing with it

The Kingpin sounds good .. but not with every guitar. I like it best with single coil guitars like a strat.

The Rambler also tends to sound better when playing with a group than it does by itself IMHO.

[2bornot2bop]

Congrats b _ goat!!!! Couldn't be happier you bought that one....I viewed it earlier and thought that's a nice one.

I'm biased towards the shading on the 1994-2001 L5's....the shading is noticeably different than those created after those dates....the shading on all sides is darker....more brown on the rims, top, and back.

I'd be willing to bet the color you're seeing in the sellers photos is not how the guitar will appear in natural light.

The WES was too bright for me and even after fiddling with it for a long time, I could not get the same sound out of it as the CES. That killed my GAS for the WES for good.

What's this?! Well that's encouraging....Same same. Nice to know I'm not the only one hearing the striking difference between a WesMo and L5 CES model. I always roll with TI 14's, if not LaBella 15's, to rule out string brightness from the evaluation equation.

I'm still happy I got the WesMo curiosity out of my system...everything serves a purpose.

Still, it's one classic good looking guitar.

[Patrick2]

[QUOTE=wintermoon;468689]"consider a change out of the pup covers which were corroded by the gassing of the guard"

nah, don't touch the covers on this one--that's a very minor bit of corrosion on that guitar's covers, you'll put a bit of wear there anyway just playing it.

I'd agree, if the rest of the guitar was showing similar aging . . most especially the rest of the hardware. That doesn't seem to be the case with this guitar. The pups look like *something* happened to them, other than natural aging . . . which is indeed the case here. For me, when something gets messed up, broken or corroded, and it's not due to natural aging or patina, I need to fix or replace it. But, that's just me.

"I'd want a valve amp if I really wanted that smokey tone you're seeking"

a what amp? I thought you were from Joisey.
next thing you're gonna want some fish and chips.....

Yeah . . no shit. I'm not sure what the hell I was thinking on that one. lol I was just reading another post on an older thread and heard the term being used. I said to myself . . "what the hell is a valve??". Then, I found mysefl using the term here. Go figure. Won't happen again!! Fish and chips? Not in my life time!!

Is your '69 L5 an earlier one? Or a later '69? Two piece back? 1-9/16th" nut? Blond? I hate to infringe upon this thread, but, at some point maybe in another thread, I'd love to see a picture of it.

[Bluedawg]

MMmmmmmm Fish and Chips ... sounds good to me

[Bluedawg]

MMmmmmmm Fish and Chips ... sounds good to me

And a pint of Boddingtons

[AlainJazz]

Congrats b _ goat!!!! Couldn't be happier you bought that one....I viewed it earlier and thought that's a nice one.

I'm biased towards the shading on the 1994-2001 L5's....the shading is noticeably different than those created after those dates....the shading on all sides is darker....more brown on the rims, top, and back.

I'd be willing to bet the color you're seeing in the sellers photos is not how the guitar will appear in natural light.






What's this?! Well that's encouraging....Same same. Nice to know I'm not the only one hearing the striking difference between a WesMo and L5 CES model. I always roll with TI 14's, if not LaBella 15's, to rule out string brightness from the evaluation equation.

I'm still happy I got the WesMo curiosity out of my system...everything serves a purpose.

Still, it's one classic good looking guitar.

I have to agree with you. It is one very sweet looking guitar. I actually prefer the look of the Wes to that of a CES. But the CES is for me all around the better sounding beast, and it ain't ugly either.

[AlainJazz]

Just curious about the brightness on the Wes you sampled. Did you take into account string gauge? When I first got my Wes, I immediately replaced the TOM with an ebony saddle, and strung it with D'ad .012 Chrome flat wounds . . . which was my string of choice at the time. I noticed the brightness as well. I re strung it with .013 TI Jazz Swings. It's still not the same as the CES . . but, the TIs did bring the tone more into a balance. It's not nearly as bright as it was with the D'ad's.

Another thing I noticed about my Wes, is the neck profile. It's much more robust, chunky. Shoulders are more prominent. I kinda like that. I've got several arch tops . . and realizing that I am playing a totaly different guitar when I switch from one to another is an enjoyable thing, for me. If every one of my arch tops played and sounded exactly alike . . what fun would that be??

Hi Patrick,

Both guitars had 13s. Although the Wes had rounds and the CES had flats. Usually rounds do sound brighter, but I've tried rounds on my CES and can still get that classic dark tone very easily. I couldn't get it either Wes. The difference in brightness (almost brittle) was quite obvious. Still, I do love the look of the WES. It is such a classic looking archtop.

[silverfoxx]

Hi Alain,
I had the good fortune to be able to try a New Wes' and a
new L5CES back in April, both were Blonde ( Natural finish)
and each stunning instruments.i agree with both your and
Patrick's comments. The Wes certainly had a chunkier neck
profile but after an hour or so of comparison I surprised
myself and took the L5CES over the Wes Mo' . I suggest that
the L5CES had more versatility ,I preferred the overall tone
and despite being slightly heavier it was my firm choice. Six
months on my opinion is unchanged, Originally I had intended
to buy the Wes model . I also have a number of Archtops and
the instrument nearest to the L5's tone is my Guild Benedetto
Masterbuilt Stewart which has Benedetto A6 pickups. Both are
superlative and figure highly on my "bucket list".

regards

[Patrick2]

Hi Alain,
I had the good fortune to be able to try a New Wes' and a
new L5CES back in April, both were Blonde ( Natural finish)
and each stunning instruments.i agree with both your and
Patrick's comments. The Wes certainly had a chunkier neck
profile but after an hour or so of comparison I surprised
myself and took the L5CES over the Wes Mo' . I suggest that
the L5CES had more versatility ,I preferred the overall tone
and despite being slightly heavier it was my firm choice. Six
months on my opinion is unchanged, Originally I had intended
to buy the Wes model . I also have a number of Archtops and
the instrument nearest to the L5's tone is my Guild Benedetto
Masterbuilt Stewart which has Benedetto A6 pickups. Both are
superlative and figure highly on my "bucket list".

regards

[Danny W.]

Just a couple of comments:

I've owned five full-size, one thinline, and two Signature WesMos. Although the necks varied on them, none had a neck that was outside the range of what was on any of the two-pickup L-5's I've owned. In other words, if you've come across a WesMo with a chunky neck, it's not because it's a WesMo, but rather because the necks are hand shaped and vary from guitar to guitar. The fattest neck I've come across on a recent L-5 was on a florentine, but I would not generalize that to assume that florentine = fat neck, especially since two other recent florentines I own have fairly shallow necks.

Of all all those WesMos, I have only one that sounds particularly bright. The others are mostly quite mellow, although with still more acoustic character than a two-pickup version. The bright one tames down nicely with the tone control, which I almost never use on any other guitar. However, my experience tells me that in most venues, brighter is better by the time the sound gets to the audience, especially if my amp is not going through the FOH, so I don't worry about this stuff too much. Plus, what fun would it be if all my guitars sounded the same? In any case, my own playing tells me that it's quite possible to get a great, "smokey" jazz tone out of a WesMo.

Danny W.

[AlsoRan]

Nice decision issue to have...deciding upon which L5 to buy.

I owned a '73 Super 400CES....

2b,

When last I checked in on your epic journey, I thought that you had sold that Super 400CES.

Did you get another one and I missed it?

[AlsoRan]

While at the guitar show in Arlington, TX this weekend, I discussed the Gibson L5 and Super 400 with a fellow who played both.


He said for the gigs he had, it was useless for him to bring out either guitar. The stage was small and it did not take much volume before his guitar, especially the Super, started to howl mercilessly. He told me if I bought one, I would have to go through a lot of trouble if I wanted to play with them live in a small, loud venue.


Very discouraging. Surely he was exaggerating?

[Patrick2]

While at the guitar show in Arlington, TX this weekend, I discussed the Gibson L5 and Super 400 with a fellow who played both.


He said for the gigs he had, it was useless for him to bring out either guitar. The stage was small and it did not take much volume before his guitar, especially the Super, started to howl mercilessly. He told me if I bought one, I would have to go through a lot of trouble if I wanted to play with them live in a small, loud venue.


Very discouraging. Surely he was exaggerating?

Well . . how loud is loud to this guy you spoke with? Also, why would anyone need to play loud in a small venue? I would not imagine you'd see a jazz act consisting of multiple horns, a drummer with a full kit and a penchant for hitting very hard at a very small venue. youtube is full of videos of Kenny Burrell playing his Super 400CES with a multiple piece ensemble . . and many other videos of L5CES players in similar settings.

[2bornot2bop]

2b,

When last I checked in on your epic journey, I thought that you had sold that Super 400CES.

Did you get another one and I missed it?

No, that photo was my former '400. I'd like to buy an acoustic '400 when the time is right. It's a good thing I didn't do that show!

[NSJ]

On the subject of acoustic tone, I have a 62 L5C with a J Smith floater. It sounds good without amplification,. I play it all the time unamplified.

Man the setin pickups on the L5CES and Wesmo must really kill the top vibration and hence the acoustic tone.

a shame.

[Patrick2]

On the subject of acoustic tone, I have a 62 L5C with a J Smith floater. It sounds good without amplification,. I play it all the time unamplified.

Man the setin pickups on the L5CES and Wesmo must really kill the top vibration and hence the acoustic tone.

a shame.

Not at all a shame, Navdeep. That would be similar to someone saying . . "Man, the fully acoustic variant of an L5, (the L5C) with a J Smith floater must howl like a banshee when you need to crank up the volume to be heard in a big band setting. A shame". Makes no sense .. right? You wouldn't bring your L5C to a gig with a horn section. Would you? Well, I seriously doubt that a solo guitarist would bring an L5CES to a small venue and try to play chord melody on it unplugged.

The L5CES is providing the exact tone it was designed to provide . . albeit a differing tone from one guitar to the next . . but, generally in the same ball park. As rpguitar rightfully pointed out, "nobody's buying these guitars to play them acoustically". The L5CES wasn't designed for acoustic-unplugged playing. The L5 Wes, to a lesser degree is the same deal. But, the Wes captures more of the acoustic properties even through an amp, than it's CES sister.

[AlsoRan]

Also, why would anyone need to play loud in a small venue?

I do remember him saying the venues were medium sized but the stages were small and his amp was right next to him - a Fender Deluxe Reverb - not sure if he meant the original or reissue.

Does that information change your assessment on his opinion? He seemed pretty convinced and also had experimented with f-plugs, foam, and tape. He said it would "mess with his tone.."

[peterbright]

I'm not convinced. I have purchased plugs for f holes and found I did not need them playing quite loudly. Amp position/body position is important. Move the amp. Move your body. Why can't this be done? Seriously. Feedback just is not the issue that many seem to make it to be. Does it take a bit of finesse? Yes, as do many things. Perhaps he should practice in his bathroom until he can deal with it. There are five fingers on each hand and you are allowed to used them to mute strings and do all kinds of amazing things.

[Patrick2]

I do remember him saying the venues were medium sized but the stages were small and his amp was right next to him - a Fender Deluxe Reverb - not sure if he meant the original or reissue.

Does that information change your assessment on his opinion? He seemed pretty convinced and also had experimented with f-plugs, foam, and tape. He said it would "mess with his tone.."

Well, this guy's assessment just absolutely flies in the face of literally hundreds, if not thousands of jazzers who gig regularly with L5CES' and Super 400CES'. Here on our forum we've ingeneri who gigs regularly with a dual pup Super Eagle. Youtube is chock full of videos of guys doing the same. Pull up a Louis Stewart video and check out the volume level he plays at. I don't doubt that there are going to sometimes be venues not conducive to a big, deep box carved top guitar. But, they are the exception, not the rule.

[floatingpickup]

I do remember him saying the venues were medium sized but the stages were small and his amp was right next to him - a Fender Deluxe Reverb - not sure if he meant the original or reissue.

Does that information change your assessment on his opinion? He seemed pretty convinced and also had experimented with f-plugs, foam, and tape. He said it would "mess with his tone.."

I play archtops exclusively on all my gigs (L5CES's, ES175's and acoustic archtops with floaters). I never play very loud, but I used to have my share of feedback trouble years ago. I never have a problem anymore. The one thing I changed, which seemed to eliminate my feedback problems, was the type of amp I used. I used to play through open-back vintage Fender amps (tweed, black-faced, silver-faced). When I switched to closed-back "jazz" amps (Polytones and an Acoustic Image head with an R/E cabinet), that was the end of my feedback issues. I believe there are two reasons this type of amp reduces feedback. First, closed-back cabinets are directional and can be aimed away from your guitar, with less "ambient" sound on the stage. Secondly, these "jazz" amps seem to be voiced differently than other amps. Jazz guitar amps are warm but not boomy. With some of my traditional tube amps, I had to turn the treble down and the bass up to get a warm jazz tone. This made the bottom end boomy and caused feedback. In the old days, I tried everything....F-hole plugs, a Van Eps string damper, etc. I never have do do any of that anymore and I can enjoy my archtops.

I don't mean to show disrespect for nice old tube amps. I loved them and miss them, but I just found they weren't a perfect match for my archtops.

Keith

[AlsoRan]

I play archtops exclusively on all my gigs (L5CES's, ES175's and acoustic archtops with floaters). I never play very loud, but I used to have my share of feedback trouble years ago. I never have a problem anymore. The one thing I changed, which seemed to eliminate my feedback problems, was the type of amp I used. I used to play through open-back vintage Fender amps (tweed, black-faced, silver-faced). When I switched to closed-back "jazz" amps (Polytones and an Acoustic Image head with an R/E cabinet), that was the end of my feedback issues. I believe there are two reasons this type of amp reduces feedback. First, closed-back cabinets are directional and can be aimed away from your guitar, with less "ambient" sound on the stage. Secondly, these "jazz" amps seem to be voiced differently than other amps. Jazz guitar amps are warm but not boomy. With some of my traditional tube amps, I had to turn the treble down and the bass up to get a warm jazz tone. This made the bottom end boomy and caused feedback. In the old days, I tried everything....F-hole plugs, a Van Eps string damper, etc. I never have do do any of that anymore and I can enjoy my archtops.

I don't mean to show disrespect for nice old tube amps. I loved them and miss them, but I just found they weren't a perfect match for my archtops.

Keith

Floatingpickup, was that you whom I spoke with at the guitar show in Arlington?

Just kidding. Thanks for your input.

[floatingpickup]

Floatingpickup, was that you whom I spoke with at the guitar show in Arlington?

Just kidding. Thanks for your input.

AlsoRan:

I wish I had gone to Arlington. I have been at that show in the past, but not recently. I love seeing all those wonderful guitars! It sounds like the guy you talked to doesn't even bother to play his archtops on gigs. Maybe he plays in loud venues. I really believe you can greatly reduce the problem by trying different amps. I would be interested to hear if anyone else has found this to work for them like it has for me.


Keith

[Groyniad]

speaking to bill comins once, he stressed quite heavily that a second pickup in the top can work wonders for amplified tone (just in virtue of being there - not in virtue of being used). as far as i know neither he, nor very many others, produce many 2 pup archtops.