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Hi All,
I'm checking out L-5's (yours is a beauty, Patrick), and wonder what your opinions are on 1 pickup vs. 2 pup models. I often find with humbuckers that I like sound of both pickups on w/treble pup volume rolled back a bit. Is the basic tone different with the second pup (due to routing).
Thanks!!
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10-17-2014 01:16 PM
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2 pups feedback less. I can get almost rock levels with mine. Everyone 1 pup model of any archtop I've tried howls.
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I have an L5CES and an L5 WES ...
I usually prefer the single pup WES ... but the CES has it's own magic
If you like mixing the neck and brigade pups then the CES may be your best way to go
I'm sure it can vary from guitar to guitar as well .... so if you can play a few that would help ... but these guitars can be hard to get your hands on for test rides
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Thank you for the compliment on my Wesmo. To answer your question, yes . . there is definitely a difference in the basic tone . . . if I'm understanding your definition of basic tone correctly, as in acoustic/unamplified. The difference is, as you said, due the the additional pup . . but, also the additional tone and volume pots. The bracing is relatively similar, with the single pup Wesmo having one less horizontal cross brace at the lower bout . . but, similar vertical parallel tone bars.
Originally Posted by b_goat
I once heard it said here that the second (bridge) pup acts as a sort of ballast to the first. I think there's something to that.
Here's my opinion on one vs the other. I'm selling the Wesmo and keeping the L5CES. That pretty much says it all. But, I'll expand on why I made that decision. They both sound absolutely wonderful, when played through either of my Fender tube amps. Different, but wonderful. I can't tell you which of the two sounds better . . . because they both sound so great any choice would be based purely upon personal taste and subjectivity. But, with that said, I perfer the sound of the L5CES. When played acoustically, (unamplified) while the Wesmo does sound a bit better than the CES . . . . neither sound great, and neither are anywhere near as inspiring as my Heritage 17" Golden Eagles with single inset pups, when played acoustically. Not even close . . not even in the same ball park.
I currently play unamplifed far more than plugged in. So, I've got my wants and needs covered, (when playing acoustically) with any of my X braced floating pup arch tops . . or even my inset pup Heritage arch tops. The exception would be my dual inset pup 18" Super Eagle. That sounds pretty similar to a Gibson Super 400CES acoustically . . . uninspiring. But, much like the Super 400CES . . the Super Eagle is amazing through a tube amp. I've got a single inset pup Super Eagle with X bracing that sounds as good or even better than most fully acoustic arch tops I've played.
So, my suggestion to you would be this; if you are firm in your convictions of wanting to buy a Gibson L5 and you will be playing mostly amplified . . . it's gonna be a hard choice to make. Neither will disappoint you. But, given your comment that you like mixing both pups . . you need to get the CES. If, on the other hand, unamplifed acoustic tone is important to you . . . ya gotta go with the Wesmo.
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the Wes model has a more acoustic sound, somewhere in between a guitar w/a floating pickup and a 2 pickup model [L-5C vs L-5CES]
I've always used CES models and never used the bridge pickup, but in the last few yrs I find myself sometimes blending the front and back pickup on certain tunes to give a less bassy sound. never use only the rear pickup though.
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The advice already given about the differences is all good, but it's always a player's choice kind of thing
I like them either way; do almost all my indoor gigs with a two-pickup and the outdoor ones with a WesMo. At home I more often play X-braced guitars with floaters, but when I do play one with a set-in pickup, it usually has only one of them. In a feedback-free world I'd probably always choose the one pickup. With my big band I sometimes find a use for the second pickup, but mostly I keep it off and use the toggle as a mute switch.
Danny W.
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So that's a vote for the Wes, Danny?
Last edited by fumblefingers; 10-17-2014 at 04:02 PM.
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I have never actually played a WesMo (!), but I do own a CES. It was more of a "Wow, this blonde one is available locally for me to try" kind of thing when I was shopping, as I would have been interested in either model at the time.
I think we can all agree that nobody buys either of these guitars for their acoustic sound, and frankly they are poor in that department when compared to purpose-built acoustic archtops - as they should be. If this is your only archtop and you value a slightly more acoustic vibe, you'd probably appreciate that in the WesMo. Otherwise if you have better options in the acoustic department, you'll probably choose them over either of these.
The only thing to watch for on a CES is that it can be heavy. They easily approach or even exceed 8 lbs, which is kind of a lot for a hollow guitar, regardless of its appointments. The WesMo is more likely to come in at 7.5 lbs or less.
If we put Wes Montgomery and his absolutely classic but extremely idiosyncratic tone aside for the moment, my vote for most iconic sound goes to the L-5CES with two pickups. I do think the additional hardware makes it that much more of an electric guitar and gives it THE sound we associate with a 25.5" scale, carved 17" Gibson archtop. It's useful to dial in a rhythm sound with both pickups (tone control down, etc.). But then again, the simplicity of the WesMo controls is appealing, too.
It's not chocolate vs. vanilla; it's more like chocolate vs. chocolate fudge brownie. Or something.
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Nice decision issue to have...deciding upon which L5 to buy.
I owned a '73 Super 400CES, a '99 L5CES, and an '08 James Hutchins L5 Wes, all purchased within 3 months of each other.
I echo the previous comments concerning acoustic sound, but I can't imagine anyone buying either of those above to use for acoustic purposes.
Perhaps I'm the lone voice on this board that found a big difference between the L5CES and the Wes model. I found the Wes model so lacking in tone. It was downright bright by comparison to my L5CES. In the Wes' defense my luthier swore up and down that my L5CES guitar had an acoustic voice unlike any other he previously heard, and he'd worked on countless guitars.
The Wes was such a big disappointment I sold the Wes shortly after it arrived. Prior to its arrival, in my mind, and being a J. H model, it was to be my keeper Gibson. But that's the downside of buying blind....you don't know what you have until it arrives. On the other hand the L5CES had the exact smokey tone I'd imagined L5's would possess. Too bad for me that guitar was sold to make room for the Super 400CES. I'd relish owning an L5CES some future day, just to own one.
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 10-17-2014 at 06:13 PM.
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I can't thank all of you enough for your help here!
Yes, 2B, I'm fortunate. But I am selling guitars to buy it so it's okay, right?
Last night at The Music Emporium in Lexington, MA., among other guitars, I played a Collings Eastside LC, an L-5 Wesmo, and a Eastman John Pisano. That Collings is overpriced, IMO, but it sounded great. I was amazed at how nice the Pisano was - it played and sounded fantastic, and A+ on workmanship. But the L-5 has been haunting me...
I've owned a 175, ES-5, and currently have the Tal that's for sale. I'm all set in the floater dept. - have a Ribbecke Halfling and a Moll Pizzarelli 7-string. I'm after the "smokey" tone...Wes is my #1 player. I love Patrick's Wesmo but think I'd regret not getting a 2-pup model.
Amps are another issue...breaking in a Cannabis Rex in a Carr Rambler is taking a long time. I'm thinking an L-5 would sound good through that or the '65 Deluxe Reverb w/Eminence Patriot. Any thoughts on that?
Sorry for rambling, and thank you all again - much appreciated!
b_goatLast edited by b_goat; 10-17-2014 at 10:13 PM.
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Is the '65 Deluxe Reverb . . . . a '65 Deluxe Reverb? Or is it a '65 DRRI? The newer L5CES' (mid '90s and beyond) have the '57 Classic pups. They're pretty hot. I'd want a valve amp if I really wanted that smokey tone you're seeking. I agree on the Rambler. Never played through one. But, spoke with about half a dozen or so people who have. Most ran solid bodies through them. But,two friends ran archies through it. One was a 175 and it immediately became his main rig. The other was Kuz, from the HOC. If I remeber correctly, he ran his single inset pup Golden Eagle through his Carr Rambler (stock speaker) and also loved it. Originally Posted by b_goat
I can't thank all of you enough for your help here!
Yes, 2B, I'm fortunate. But I am selling guitars to buy it so it's okay, right?
Last night at The Music Emporium in Lexington, MA., among other guitars, I played a Collings Eastside LC, an L-5 Wesmo, and a Eastman John Pisano. That Collings is overpriced, IMO, but it sounded great. I was amazed at how nice the Pisano was - it played and sounded fantastic, and A+ on workmanship. But the L-5 has been haunting me...
I've owned a 175, L-5 CES, and currently have the Tal that's for sale. I'm all set in the floater dept. - have a Ribbecke Halfling and a Moll Pizzarelli 7-string. I'm after the "smokey" tone...Wes is my #1 player. I love Patrick's Wesmo but think I'd regret not getting a 2-pup model.
Amps are another issue...breaking in a Cannabis Rex in a Carr Rambler is taking a long time. I'm thinking an L-5 would sound good through that or the '65 Deluxe Reverb w/Eminence Patriot. Any thoughts on that?
Sorry for rambling, and thank you all again - much appreciated!
b_goat
I sense that you're getting taken in by the L5 Wesmo vibe and the great photos of mine and others of an L5 Wes Montgomery. I know I certainly was. But, if I bought this Wesmo before I bought my CES . . I'd still have needed a CES. It's kinda like an old school Yankees fan and baseball card collector having two Roger Maris' but no Mickey Mantles. Ya just gotta have a Mickey Mantel. If you don't get the CES . . . be prepared to start saving your money all over again. Because, you might find a Wesmo that you love and bond with. But, it ain't gonna be an L5CES. Nothing .. . is gonna be an L5CES. If you don't buy one . . you're always gonna want one.
Greg: I know you once told me you don't take alcohol. I believed you at the time. I'm starting to wonder now.?.? I'm thinking you had to have been drunk to sell that L5CES. Gorgeous!!!!
Roger: Spot on, as usual when it comes to offering an opinion and an assessment of a Gibson arch top. The only thing I'd debate with you is the caviat about the weight. No biggie for me. As you said, nobody buys an L5CES for playing unplugged. The added weight usually means a bit of a thicker top . . (the tops are not cookie cutter dimensional thicknesses). It might also mean a more dense and thus heavier maple and or spruce. That's not necessarily a detriment to tone . . only a difference. If it's the top that's thicker and/or of a higher dinsity . . that would more than likely result in greater resistence to feed back as well as a warmer tone with less shrill highs.
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Listen to this man! Originally Posted by Patrick2
I bought an L5 WesMo earlier this year and while I love it to death, here I am plottin' on a CES. You WILL want that second pickup, eventually.
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Patrick,
It's a DRRI...
LOL on the baseball cards. I've never been into sports, but as a kid in the mid-1960's used to buy boxes of baseball cards, give the cards away and keep the gum. Wonder if they'd be worth anything now...
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You really don't want to know what they'd be worth today. It would be too depressing for you. Originally Posted by b_goat
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Well, I did it: a '96 CES off feebay!
Thanks again to everyone...will post pics when it arrives.
b_goat
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Congrats! Can't wait to see the photos of it and hear your joy. I just went onto ebay to see if I could take a peep at a 1996 L5CES that just sold. Nothing there. Was the ad pulled already?
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Here's the listing.
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LOL
I started with an L5CES and just had to add the L5WES to my collection ...
Now I'm in lust with the L5-Ps I've played ... I keep meaning to sell some stuff to raise the funds, but life has been getting in the way .... fortunately I also have a '93 Le Grand that does well in the floater department
And I still want an acoustic 18" or bigger archtop
I have Carr Rambler .... the CES sounds great in it and the WES ... but floating pups just don't seem to be a good match IMHO
I also have a Henriksen and a DRRI ... the Hendriksen works magic with the L5s and the Le Grand ... the DRRI is nice as well
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Originally Posted by b_goat
An add for the Black L5WES at Musician's Friend shows up in that link .... down to $4,799 ... oh my
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The link worked for me.?.? Looks great b_goat. If you haven't ;aready done so, you might want to ask the seller to remove the pick guard and pack it separately. The off gassing is only going to make matters worse if it's in the case with the guitar when shipped. The color and shading are really nice. You're going to love this one . . I'm sure of it.
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Both the Wes and the CES are wonderful guitars no doubt. I have a CES, and I was lusting for a WES because I thought it would probably sound more acoustic. Also, the bridge pickup on the CES was occasionally rattling which was driving me completely nuts. Then I tried a WES and realized they are two very different sounding guitars. Both are very very nice, but to me the CES has a much more classic tone. The WES was too bright for me and even after fiddling with it for a long time, I could not get the same sound out of it as the CES. That killed my GAS for the WES for good. I fixed the pickup rattling and am very happy I didn't sell the CES. It's absolutely classic.
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Bluedawg: what kind of speaker do you have in the Rambler? I changed mine out b/c the amp is too clean.
Patrick: thanks for the tip on removing the pickguard - I requested that. I've seen this problem but never experienced it myself...should the pickguard be replaced? I don't leave my guitars out...
Alain: thanks for the info - helped build the excitement. And yes, that dang pup rattling thang....
b_goat
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When the guard starts to deteriorate, it must be replaced. It will damage the guitar. Leaving it out of the case will only slow the process down, but won't stop it. I am surprised to hear that it is happening to a '96, because I have only experienced it with older guitars. Maybe I just haven't run into a more recent one yet. I have replaced a number of L5 PickGuards with the L5 tortoise shell guard sold by Allparts. They are the right size and have the right binding etc. Originally Posted by b_goat
Keith
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Excellent discussion and beautiful CES b _ goat.
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Yes. The pick guard should be replaced. Don't be at all concerned about keeping the origianlity of parts on the guitar. It's not a vintage instrument. It's a 1996 . . not a 1966. Also, throw the guard away. There is no reason to keep it. It's dead! Bury it. I remember years ago one numb-nuts guy took the pick guard off of his Super 400 for the same reason. But, this rocket scientist put it in the case pocket. Originally Posted by b_goat
Also, if the guitar comes to you in as excellent of condition as the seller claims it is . . consider a change out of the pup covers which were corroded by the gassing of the guard. If you do so, make sure you take it to a tech who knows how to break and resolder a solder joint without damaging the pups. The tail piece looks brand new. So too should the pup covers.
I'm seeing that the rims will reveal a whole bunch more flamed figure when you get this guitar and see it up close and personal . . than what is shown in the pics.
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