Laminate top vs maple or spruce?

**JBGM** · 10-08-2014, 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Music

I can't 'discuss' this with someone who very clearly doesn't understand any of it and is filling in the knowledge gaps with his own bad narratives of how things 'must work' since he doesn't understand how they 'actually work'.

Can a moderator please close this thread and/or expel the user "Music". More than enough has been hijacked by this troll who clearly: (i) learned how to spell physics and believes he can solve a partial differential equation, (ii) saw a video of some dude playing guitar and believes he is a musician, and (iii) learned how to use a browser, and has been trolling the internet since. This troll posts frequently in YouTube and other venues always with the same tune. This troll does not know what he is talking about, is not a guitar player, does not know physics, does not have common sense, lacks civility, and adds nothing valuable to this community. Actually, this troll degrades the value of this forum by posting searchable garbage.

**ah.clem** · 10-09-2014, 01:04 AM

Originally Posted by JBGM

Can a moderator please close this thread and/or expel the user "Music".

Best bet is send a PM to Mark Rhodes; he is pretty busy and might not even be reading this thread. Mark is a fair guy, so don't freak if he gives Music a bit more rope. Music has been rude and insulting, but I think I've read worse before Mark ejected a user. Mark really goes the extra mile. Just sayin'.

**ninjasan** · 10-09-2014, 02:08 AM

Really poor attempts indeed,
a real troll is not as easily recognisable after a few posts, he can be far more proteiform,
this needs some real talent and background to argue about almost any subject and derivate it into
- PC vs Mac
- Vinyl vs CD
- Israelo-palestinian conflict
etc ...

maybe take a rookie book like "quintessential trolling: the 10 very firsts steps for teens" by W.C. Boring

**Para** · 10-09-2014, 02:34 AM

I think the matter is in hand.

**Rob22315** · 10-09-2014, 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by Bluedawg

Ummm ... the whole point of a hollowbody is for the bridge to interact with vibrations of the top .... which interacts with the vibrations of the string ... which generate the electromagnetic current as they vibrate within the magnetic field of the pickup

Your essentially saying that an L5 sounds just like a Les Paul and we're fooling ourselves if we think different

Yes, that's the idea but the difference with a hollow body (over the solid body guitars used in Music's articles) is that the pickup is mounted to the vibrating top so it's now moving as well. It's no longer just the string moving through the magnetic field generated by the pickup. This effect would be less with a single floating pickup mounted to the neck but certainly can't be ignored where the pickups are mounted directly to the top.

@ Music: unless you have anything better to offer than "I know you are but what am I" then shut your pie hole.

**MarkRhodes** · 10-09-2014, 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by JBGM

Can a moderator please close this thread and/or expel the user "Music".

Yes and no.
Yes, a moderator can close this thread. No, a moderator cannot expel Music. That is a decision for the site administrator. Moderators can banish bot spammers but Music is not one of those.

I suggest that those who have tired of Music's posts take the following two steps:
1) Ignore them
2) Report them if they are abusive / offensive.

"This too shall pass."

**MarkRhodes** · 10-09-2014, 10:09 AM

Originally Posted by ah.clem

Best bet is send a PM to Mark Rhodes; he is pretty busy and might not even be reading this thread. Mark is a fair guy, so don't freak if he gives Music a bit more rope. Music has been rude and insulting, but I think I've read worse before Mark ejected a user. Mark really goes the extra mile. Just sayin'.

Thanks for the kind words.

I have had this thread brought to my attention at least a dozen times in the past few days. The site administrator has been notified and will take whatever action he deems appropriate.

**tdearn** · 10-09-2014, 10:50 AM

Sorry guys. I started this thread for advice on my next guitar. I am sorry that this troll has completely gone off topic and caused offence.

**oldane** · 10-09-2014, 12:49 PM

Please don't apologize. It's not at all your fault. Besides it has now been taken care of by the forum administrator.

**MarkRhodes** · 10-09-2014, 01:08 PM

Originally Posted by tdearn

Sorry guys. I started this thread for advice on my next guitar. I am sorry that this troll has completely gone off topic and caused offence.

As oldane said, this is not your fault.
I'm sorry the thread went a little haywire and hope you don't hesitate to start other ones (-or try getting this one back on track). MOST threads are drama-free, and MOST members are stand-up folk. This was an unusual and unfortunate episode.

**tdearn** · 10-09-2014, 01:11 PM

Ok. Well getting back on track. What do you guys think of the ibanez af151? Slightly cheaper than the Benson model with a different wood.

**disco~juice** · 10-09-2014, 01:13 PM

Originally Posted by tdearn

Sorry guys. I started this thread for advice on my next guitar. I am sorry that this troll has completely gone off topic and caused offence.

He's just another funny guy.

"Music" must be playing a really crappy guitar with the worst setup ever, trying to analyse what he plays, what must be also crap and then comes here to "discuss"...

**Ghostlady** · 10-09-2014, 01:15 PM

The Latrobe article uses two teles with very similar density woods, so it is not surprised there is not much variation between the two. With solid bodies, the density of the wood, and it's construction method, influences sustain. With things such as string through body or a set neck increasing sustain. Otherwise there is no resonance to a solid body. However the string sustain does depend on body size, wood density, and construction. Solid body players never talk about resonance, they talk about sustain. Short sustain guitars (mustangs, jaguars, strats) jangle more than long sustain guitars such as les pauls. They sound brighter because of this aspect of the sound envelope as well, especially when combine with single coil pickups.

Hollow body guitars, archtops with a floating bridge specifically, have a more lively spring action to the string. There is in fact resonance, even when plugged in. Add to this, many pickups to archtops are microphonic (Rythm Chief, many floating pickups, and even Franz soapbars) adds to this resonant quality.

A solid body is not going to sound like a hollow body. In addition to that the top wood on an archtop does influence it's amplified sound, because of how it impacts the liveliness of the the string, the bridge and string guage also matters here as well. The string movement determines the sound. So the fretboard may not matter, but the construction of the guitar has a huge influence with archtops. As a result there is a great deal more character and variation to an archtop, plugged or unplugged, and even scinetist recognize this. This is because of the higher energy of the string vibration.

So when somebody says there is no difference between the archtop and a solid body...that is not recognizing the science says there is a huge difference. There may be subtle differences with solid bodies, but the differences come from string sustain, which the pickup does pick up. With hollow bodies it is string attack and resonance/release. An archtop has a more energetic/lively string than even a flatop acoustic. The Latrobe article is not the only one out there on this matter.
http://sem-proceedings.com/21i/sem.org-IMAC-XXI-Conf-s19p01-Dynamics-Archtop-Jazz-Guitar.pdf
http://logosfoundation.org/kursus/Th...nstruments.pdf

So with that being said, an archtop will sound very different than your les paul. The top wood does make a difference. The attack is more with spruce, there is more energy than maple. The spring effect is better.

**medblues** · 10-09-2014, 02:12 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostlady

The Latrobe article uses two teles with very similar density woods, so it is not surprised there is not much variation between the two. With solid bodies, the density of the wood, and it's construction method, influences sustain. With things such as string through body or a set neck increasing sustain. Otherwise there is no resonance to a solid body. However the string sustain does depend on body size, wood density, and construction. Solid body players never talk about resonance, they talk about sustain. Short sustain guitars (mustangs, jaguars, strats) jangle more than long sustain guitars such as les pauls. They sound brighter because of this aspect of the sound envelope as well, especially when combine with single coil pickups.

Hollow body guitars, archtops with a floating bridge specifically, have a more lively spring action to the string. There is in fact resonance, even when plugged in. Add to this, many pickups to archtops are microphonic (Rythm Chief, many floating pickups, and even Franz soapbars) adds to this resonant quality.

A solid body is not going to sound like a hollow body. In addition to that the top wood on an archtop does influence it's amplified sound, because of how it impacts the liveliness of the the string, the bridge and string guage also matters here as well. The string movement determines the sound. So the fretboard may not matter, but the construction of the guitar has a huge influence with archtops. As a result there is a great deal more character and variation to an archtop, plugged or unplugged, and even scinetist recognize this. This is because of the higher energy of the string vibration.

So when somebody says there is no difference between the archtop and a solid body...that is not recognizing the science says there is a huge difference. There may be subtle differences with solid bodies, but the differences come from string sustain, which the pickup does pick up. With hollow bodies it is string attack and resonance/release. An archtop has a more energetic/lively string than even a flatop acoustic. The Latrobe article is not the only one out there on this matter.
http://sem-proceedings.com/21i/sem.org-IMAC-XXI-Conf-s19p01-Dynamics-Archtop-Jazz-Guitar.pdf
http://logosfoundation.org/kursus/Th...nstruments.pdf

So with that being said, an archtop will sound very different than your les paul. The top wood does make a difference. The attack is more with spruce, there is more energy than maple. The spring effect is better.

Yes of course there is a difference. The magnitude of this difference is little when we listen only to the electrically amplified sound and can be difficult to detect in a blind test and can be far easily compensated for by altering other factors (playing technique, EQ'ing etc.). However, the magnitude of difference is much larger acoustically where it would be much easier to discern by blind testing and much more difficult to compensate for by other factors. Psychoacoustics is a science and shows that there are auditory illusions not dissimilar to the more popular (and easier to share and demonstrate) optical illusions: Auditory illusion - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

**Patrick2** · 10-09-2014, 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by Rob22315

Yes, that's the idea but the difference with a hollow body (over the solid body guitars used in Music's articles) is that the pickup is mounted to the vibrating top so it's now moving as well. It's no longer just the string moving through the magnetic field generated by the pickup. This effect would be less with a single floating pickup mounted to the neck but certainly can't be ignored where the pickups are mounted directly to the top.

@ Music: unless you have anything better to offer than "I know you are but what am I" then shut your pie hole.

"Shut your pie hole" . . . lololol. WOW!! I haven't heard that saying since Parris Island back in '67. Thanks for the memories!!

**medblues** · 10-09-2014, 02:31 PM

Originally Posted by Rob22315

Yes, that's the idea but the difference with a hollow body (over the solid body guitars used in Music's articles) is that the pickup is mounted to the vibrating top so it's now moving as well. It's no longer just the string moving through the magnetic field generated by the pickup. This effect would be less with a single floating pickup mounted to the neck but certainly can't be ignored where the pickups are mounted directly to the top.

@ Music: unless you have anything better to offer than "I know you are but what am I" then shut your pie hole.

This is true, the other factor that is usually understated and is probably a larger contributor to the difference is the pickup microphony which detects the acoustic non-magnetic vibrations (wood, string and air) of the archtop that is absent in the solid bodies and transmits to the amplifier. Older, vintage archtops are probably more likely to have pickups that are more microphonic than newer guitars. Hence, if one uses near perfect nonmicrophonic pickups in comparing the amplified sound of a solid body the magnitude of the difference decreases (sustain can still reveal the type of body if tested accurately and systematically).

**Ghostlady** · 10-09-2014, 02:31 PM

The difference between archtops can be subtle. But between archtops and a solid body, it is easily distinguishable, and not subtle at all. No matter how much EQ you use. Keep in mind, this is dry signal as well. Many archtop guitarists use a very dry signal (high quality solid state amps), with solid bodies the signal is often much more "wet" (reverb, tubes, etc). When sent through a dry signal the differences between solid and hollow are very dramatic. Solid bodies often sound dead, good archtops do not. This is where that string energy comes in. This is not just an auditory illusion. Again the difference between solid and hollow body guitars are acknowledged by the science.

**Para** · 10-09-2014, 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by tdearn

Ok. Well getting back on track. What do you guys think of the ibanez af151? Slightly cheaper than the Benson model with a different wood.

I have an AF151 with a classic 57 in (picture on the first page of this thread) the 151 is a single pickup the two pickup version is the 155, they only do the one colour aged whisky burst. Body and neck wise it's the same as the LGB30 same quality finish bone nut etc. except for the different wood, same pickups Super 58 customs so sound wise it's very similar (in a blind test lol, I don't think I would know the difference) with the 57 it is a different sound, IMO smoother. I'm waiting on the arrival of a Lollar Charlie Christian for it to replace the 57.

**tdearn** · 10-09-2014, 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by Para

I have an AF151 with a classic 57 in (picture on the first page of thid s thread) the 151 is a single pickup the two pickup version is the 155, they only do the one colour aged whisky burst. Bond neck wise it's the same as the LGB30 same quality finish bone nut etc. except for the different wood, same pickups Super 58 customs so sound wise it's very similar (in a blind test lol, I don't think I would know the difference) with the 57 it is a different sound, IMO smoother. I'm waiting on the arrival of a Lollar Charlie Christian for it to replace the 57.

Thanks. Well I am still waiting to sell my strat so will see what happens. The lgb 30 isn't much more expensive so I guess I will try both out when I get a buyer for the strat. The guy at PMT in Birmingham was telling me on the phone that they have a Gibson 175 in used for 1700 pounds but its out of my price range.

**ah.clem** · 10-09-2014, 03:33 PM

It looks like you're about 45-60 minutes from Fould's in Derby; perhaps a Saturday road trip to try out some instruments? Just a thought.

If you do go, check out their Peerless offerings - same general prince range and I've found Peerless builds to be excellent. Just my opinion. Having Foulds so close when making an arch top purchase is quite nice for you, I think.

**disco~juice** · 10-09-2014, 04:40 PM

Sorry if I mention that second time in this thread since I didnt quite read the whole thing.
Victor Baker's 7 string guitar is a maple laminate with a spruce piece for top. I think that would be for aesthetic reasons more than tone reasons, right?

**medblues** · 10-09-2014, 05:17 PM

Originally Posted by Ghostlady

The difference between archtops can be subtle. But between archtops and a solid body, it is easily distinguishable, and not subtle at all. No matter how much EQ you use. Keep in mind, this is dry signal as well. Many archtop guitarists use a very dry signal (high quality solid state amps), with solid bodies the signal is often much more "wet" (reverb, tubes, etc). When sent through a dry signal the differences between solid and hollow are very dramatic. Solid bodies often sound dead, good archtops do not. This is where that string energy comes in. This is not just an auditory illusion. Again the difference between solid and hollow body guitars are acknowledged by the science.

Again, I agree with you that there will be a difference but am doubting your opinion that ther will be a dramatic difference when it comes to the nonacoustic amplified sound (for instance using a tightly potted magnetic pickup).

If possible, please point me to the direction of any science you saw comparing the non-microphonic magnetic-to-electric signal between a hollow bodied archtop and a solid bodied guitar, I have only seen structural or acoustic comparisons.

I personally don't feel confident I can detect the sound difference between a hollow bodied archtop and a solid body guitar without any acoustic-microphonic contribution (maybe others can). Furthermore, I believe I can fool many (maybe not all) a blindfolded listener by altering other factors (such as muting a solid body to make it sound more like a hollow body, using some reverb/delay on the hollow bodied guitar to make it sound sustainy, using different amplifiers that are characteristically paired with the opposite guitar type etc).

Because you are adding other qualifiers such as "good archtop", "high quality" SS amps, maybe you are not that confident yourself about the difference being dramatic and easily distinguishable.

**JBGM** · 10-09-2014, 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by ingeneri

Sadowsky goes into great detail on why he picked maple over spruce when designing the Jim Hall, but has Benedetto or anyone else ever defined the advantages of using spruce laminate?

This is a very interesting matter, in the spirit of the original question. In acoustic instruments, a solid spruce top gives a very mellow sound. I have never tried laminated spruce, but I have played laminated maple and solid maple tops. The laminated maple is a little less bright (or more muted) as compared to solid maple... perhaps because of the tiny layer of glue and cross grain between layers? I am not sure, however, how does this translate into a pickup signal.

My Epi JP with a solid spruce top has a mellow sound. I have not had the opportunity to compare it simultaneously with let say a Gibson 175, which has laminated maple top. Even with the same top wood, the sound is affected by electronics. See the following comparison between a Dean Palomino Solo and an Epiphone Joe Pass, both with solid spruce tops:

The difference in tonal qualities is evident (I like both... they are just different), but are most likely due to pickups and bridge. Does anyone know of a side-by-side comparison of spruce and laminated maple?

**jorgemg1984** · 10-09-2014, 05:24 PM

With a pickup on 10 (even a low output PAF) I find guitar types hard to distinguish. With a small cut on volume (say arounf 8) acoustic properties of an archtop come much more alive and I don't think a solid body can touch that sounds.

**medblues** · 10-09-2014, 05:28 PM

Originally Posted by jorgemg1984

With a pickup on 10 (even a low output PAF) I find guitar types hard to distinguish. With a small cut on volume (say arounf 8) acoustic properties of an archtop come much more alive and I don't think a solid body can touch that sounds.

Do you mean when you listen while you play the guitar(s) or when you listen while somebody else plays behind an opaque screen (a giant amp grill cloth let's say :-)