Laminate top vs maple or spruce?

[JBGM]

if players in general are telling you they can hear a difference, then there must be one.

I agree 100% with you. My experience is in agreement with your statements.

[ah.clem]

If you think you can make me believe in a blind test that a Squier is a high quality hollow body, I'll buy it from you, no questions asked. I'll sell my Les Paul and give you $2,500. You can pocket $2,000 or more of profit. I'm serious.

Let me muddy the waters some here. I was the one to bring up a Squire tele. I did not mean to say that guitar would sound like my carved or laminate archtops, what I was trying to say is that, for any of my guitars, I could get tonal differences similar to those in the video; not those exact tones, but those differences on each individual guitar by using the tone controls on the guitar and my solid state amp. I was agreeing with the notion that all those tones could have been produced by one guitar using different settings. I was not comparing the sound of a Squire tele to an archtop, just saying that the tonal variations I heard on the video could be accomplished (in my opinion) on each of my instruments. Obviously, acoustically, they are nothing alike. Just for the record, the Squire with a Jazzmaster at the neck and TI jazz flat 12s sounds pretty jazzy; again, in my opinion.

[JBGM]

the tonal variations I heard on the video could be accomplished (in my opinion) on each of my instruments. Obviously, acoustically, they are nothing alike. Just for the record, the Squire with a Jazzmaster at the neck and TI jazz flat 12s sounds pretty jazzy; again, in my opinion.

I bolded the "in my opinion" in your post because beliefs in this matter are irrelevant. The fact that you believe that I can fly does not mean that I will jump off the cliff It would be very nice to have a recording from your guitar so we can hear the approximations. Having that would not be an opinion, but a fact.

I believe that a Squire with a decent neck pickup can sound jazzy, but it will sound solid body jazzy. I have been chasing that rabbit for a while, and I have not found the way of making a solid body emulate the tonal characteristic of a hollow body. The richness in tone is just not there, neither with solid state nor with tube amps, IMHO.

I have done blind tests with my band mates, in my efforts to emulate that hollow body sweetness with a solid body, and we can always tell them apart. Currently my solid body guitars have SD 59 and Gibson 59, so I cannot compare them to my hollow bodies. But I would love to do that test with a solid body that has Classic 57s and post it.

[JBGM]

... what I was trying to say is that, for any of my guitars, I could get tonal differences similar to those in the video; not those exact tones, but those differences on each individual guitar by using the tone controls on the guitar and my solid state amp. I was agreeing with the notion that all those tones could have been produced by one guitar using different settings.

Please show it. I have tried and I could not do it. Perhaps you could.

[ah.clem]

I believe that a Squire with a decent neck pickup can sound jazzy, but it will sound solid body jazzy. I have been chasing that rabbit for a while, and I have not found the way of making a solid body emulate the tonal characteristic of a hollow body. The richness in tone is just not there, neither with solid state nor with tube amps, IMHO.

I agree; as I said, it's satisfactorily jazzy for me, but it doesn't sound like my archtops. All I was saying is that I believe that I can get a thin, a bit less thin and a warmer but muddier sound (that's what I heard in the recording) on any of my guitars. I was just trying to say that I agreed with medblues assertion that if you said all those tones came from the same guitar, he'd believe it. I would too. That was all I was trying to say. I'd love to add a Classic 57 to my Squire tele, but it's just a Squire tele and the Jazzmaster does a good enough job for what I want it for. I'll be adding a DeArmond on a stick to my acoustic 5th Ave before that happens.

[medblues]

True but not significant or relevant. Acoustic sound and an amplified signal out of a magnetic pickup are essentially different. The point you are trying to make, I think, is that the difference coming out of an amp between solid bodies and hollow bodies is small, and it is hard to tell them apart... am I reading you correctly?

But that statement is just not true in my experience. If you filter frequencies, as in post #125, then yes, it is hard to tell the difference. I never play with the tone totally down. I like it in average around 3.5 out of 10 (different guitars require slightly different settings), and the difference in sound between my Les Paul and my Epi JP is gigantic. Perhaps for the style of music you play that difference is not significant; I know many players like to roll down tone totally... and that is just OK; just a matter of taste.

Thanks for that clip, I can't listen to it now but I am sure it will help me learn something later when I do. I cannot believe, however, you did not raise an issue with the lapstick having a 20" scale length vs 175's 24.75 scale length ! Don't you think a solid body with a 24.75 scale length would sound even closer to the 175 (the filtering notwithstanding) ?

"True but not significant or relevant" This is OK because people make decisions based on many different personal reasons and should decide what is significant and relevant within their personal frame, though it would help to know the cost/benefit ratio of time and money. If I had a million dollars disposable income, I would go and buy three of the most artful and beautiful but different sounding handmade archtops I can find for 30K each (to reward our luthier friends). I would base my decision entirely on the acoustic sound of these guitars, but that's just me.

It is pretty brave that after that clip and agreeing that what I say about the sonic differences is true (albeit irrelevant and insignificant) you are still offering an $2500 challenge. If I did not have a 60 hr/week day job, I would have accepted it but maybe there is someone else here who can do it.

I am here to listen, learn, discuss and understand not to convince, preach or persuade. Thanks for spending your time in discourse with me.

[JBGM]

True but not significant or relevant.

just because we were not discussing acoustic sounds; your opinion in general, of course, is significant and relevant . Once amplified, I just cannot find a way to emulate hollow bodies. But it seems like you can. How do you do it? I am not being snippy; this is an honest question.

[Archie]

@Archtop Heaven, your last post was hard for me to understand, I don't think we are discussing epistemology here. If you think it is a pointless debate and I have a pointless opinion(s), we don't need to continue.

Regards.

Sorry I really didn't mean to comment that what you are saying is pointless or your opinions are. My humble apologies for giving that impression.

I was just talking frankly and loosely.

I hope I haven't cause any offence. If anything your points are valid and interesting. Its not often I see pick-ups being discussed over guitar wood, size, etc

it opens up a whole new can of worms too :-)

[Archie]

Thanks for that clip, I can't listen to it now but I am sure it will help me learn something later when I do. I cannot believe, however, you did not raise an issue with the lapstick having a 20" scale length vs 175's 24.75 scale length ! Don't you think a solid body with a 24.75 scale length would sound even closer to the 175 (the filtering notwithstanding) ?

"True but not significant or relevant" This is OK because people make decisions based on many different personal reasons and should decide what is significant and relevant within their personal frame, though it would help to know the cost/benefit ratio of time and money. If I had a million dollars disposable income, I would go and buy three of the most artful and beautiful but different sounding handmade archtops I can find for 30K each (to reward our luthier friends). I would base my decision entirely on the acoustic sound of these guitars, but that's just me.

It is pretty brave that after that clip and agreeing that what I say about the sonic differences is true (albeit irrelevant and insignificant) you are still offering an $2500 challenge. If I did not have a 60 hr/week day job, I would have accepted it but maybe there is someone else here who can do it.

I am here to listen, learn, discuss and understand not to convince, preach or persuade. Thanks for spending your time in discourse with me.

I think a lot of this doesn't take into account other variables like volume and playing types.

When I sit in my bedroom with a tele or solid body, I play it at low volume with somewhat less attack/aggresion. This lends itself to any guitar sounding like any other because they are not being pushed in anyway. Add a splash of reverb, some echo and you can make a solid body, at practice volumes, sound like anything.

However when your playing loud and in a real gig, I think the guitars characteristics become more apparent. The sustain and honkiness of a solid and semi start to shine through. Obliviously this is counter to what we have agreed, that at volumes all guitars start to sound alike.

So either at low volumes with gentle playing or at very high volumes, there is no difference. Obviously were talking dead laminate hollow bodied here, otherwise the woody tone would shine through at lower levels.

Its in the everyday playing and continual use, that you will learn/realise, there is a difference and all the parts that make it up, will take effect.

[Para]

As interesting as this discussion is I fail to see how it helps the OP decide what guitar to get.

[JBGM]

As interesting as this discussion is I fail to see how it helps the OP decide what guitar to get.

I agree. This discussion is very interesting and I am not going to be the one to end it, but at this point it only touches tangentially the original matter: laminate vs spruce or maple? My answer is: There are no general rules in this matter, as opposed to matters such as solid vs. hollow... and that is when we opened the can of worms

That is why I said earlier:

Keeping the spirit of the original question in this thread, I think it is very difficult to decide objectively between a maple top or a spruce top in a hollow body guitar with magnetic pickups... Time to start a new one? (just for indexation purposes).

[ah.clem]

As interesting as this discussion is I fail to see how it helps the OP decide what guitar to get.

It is also why I recommended he make a short (under an hour) road trip to Foulds to try out pretty much any variation in wood types he wants. He has a great resource available to him to actually try out a bunch of archtops and other builders in his price range. Imagine living less than an hour from Guitars 'n Jazz - oy! Why would you ask for opinions here with that kind of resource at your disposal?

I just spent a few hours recording a bunch of clips to see if my theory was correct - of course, as I never recorded myself before, a lot of it is too hot and of course Audicity crashed and the automatic salvager re-sequenced the sections (kinda funny, actually) but I am willing to redo it sometime next week. As I don't fool around with my tone much, trying to come up with sounds I don't use is a challenge. It did force me to pay a lot more attention to the tone I do use on each instrument. Time well spent.

I will leave it up to either the OP, consensus or Mark to decide if we should move this thread or if the OP has gotten enough opinions/advice to meet his needs and is OK with this transmogrification.

[JBGM]

I just spent a few hours recording a bunch of clips to see if my theory was correct - of course, as I never recorded myself before, a lot of it is too hot and of course Audicity crashed and the automatic salvager re-sequenced the sections (kinda funny, actually) but I am willing to redo it sometime next week. As I don't fool around with my tone much, trying to come up with sounds I don't use is a challenge. It did force me to pay a lot more attention to the tone I do use on each instrument. Time well spent.

Perhaps we could start another thread about how to compare guitars objectively. Any takers?

In Audacity, play with the menu Analyze > Spectrum, and play with auto-correlation under algorithms. I have found clear distinctions between solid body and hollow bodies.

[tdearn]

Here is a soundcloud clip of me using the Peavey Rockingham with the band at a rehearsal. Doesn't sound too bad. I want something that will be quite a bit richer in tone.

[Archie]

Here is a soundcloud clip of me using the Peavey Rockingham with the band at a rehearsal. Doesn't sound too bad. I want something that will be quite a bit richer in tone.

Cool!

Some of your licks sound like Howard Roberts.

[medblues]

Sorry I really didn't mean to comment that what you are saying is pointless or your opinions are. My humble apologies for giving that impression.

I was just talking frankly and loosely.

I hope I haven't cause any offence. If anything your points are valid and interesting. Its not often I see pick-ups being discussed over guitar wood, size, etc

it opens up a whole new can of worms too :-)

Thanks for clarifying, apology not needed but if given gladly accepted. Yes I believe pickups, strings and picks make a bigger difference in the electrical sound than wood type and size.

[medblues]

just because we were not discussing acoustic sounds; your opinion in general, of course, is significant and relevant . Once amplified, I just cannot find a way to emulate hollow bodies. But it seems like you can. How do you do it? I am not being snippy; this is an honest question.

I bought some good recording equipment but haven't had the time to even set them up yet, if I do the experiment I will inform you of success or failure. I could use a couple of 175 sound files though to help me ( I don't own a 175, I have a Hofner New President which is fully hollow, has solid spruce only on the top and has a floating pickup).

[medblues]

Perhaps we could start another thread about how to compare guitars objectively. Any takers?

In Audacity, play with the menu Analyze > Spectrum, and play with auto-correlation under algorithms. I have found clear distinctions between solid body and hollow bodies.

The OP (tdearn ?) has not posted anything negative or positive about the digression, I would like to hear what he wants us to do.

[tdearn]

The OP (tdearn ?) has not posted anything negative or positive about the digression, I would like to hear what he wants us to do.

I really don't mind guys.

[JBGM]

I really don't mind guys.

Well, in that case... let's try to answer the original question in the context of the past posts.

I created two recordings: one with a solid body Les Paul 59, one with a hollow body Epiphone Joe Pass. Please excuse the lack of polishing in these recordings for they are just a quick test convey a message

Test 1:


Test 2:


Settings were Les Paul volume 8, tone 3.5; Epi JP volume 10, tone 3.5. Both guitars have the same strings, Thomastik 12. Same amp (Fender Hotrod Deluxe III) and settings captured with a Shure 57 and going through a mixer to the computer. The backing track comes from iReal on an iPhone.

Which is which? The Les Paul has a tune-o-matic bridge, and the Epi JP has a rosewood bridge. Les Paul has a carved maple top, and the Epi JP has a carved cedar top. To my ears, during practice and on stage, they behave differently because the rosewood bridge dampens the vibration, and the cedar top enriches mid frequencies, while maple enriches high frequencies. Cedar is a less bright sound. Compare recordings at around 0:55... that might give you a clue.

Now, spectral analysis from Audacity (menu Analyze > Plot Spectrum):
Test 1:


Test 2:


There was a small difference in guitar volume in the two recordings, so the heights are slightly different, but the relative heights should be more or less the same, so keep this comparison as a qualitative, rather than quantitative exercise.

So, tdearn, the if you can hear the difference between these two, you might be able to hear the difference between maple and cedar in a hollow body. Unfortunately I do not have a hollow with maple top to offer a comparison. I speculate that laminated maple is used to make it more mellow and isotropic.

Now, in terms of feedback, since you asked about it, when possible play with a PA system, and position yourself behind the range of big speakers. You can place the guitar amp in front of you as a monitor, but position it at an angle. IF you are playing on a small venue, and you have to play with the amp behind you, feedback might be harder to control with a hollow body, specially with distortion (placing the amp in front of you will leave you without monitor and playing with a band might have a few challenges depending on your overall volume).

I hope this helps the original question, and that this long detour has been productive... but I do not want to sound final trying to end the discussion... we might be just starting

[tdearn]

Thanks. Nice sounds from both guitars.

[palindrome]

Note that this is not against JBGM at all. Just a few more general thoughts that have been crossing my mind throughout the history of this thread.

What precisely does spectrum analysis cover? Everything? I mean, if have two largely identical guitars, one being subtly "sweeter" and the other subtly “drier” sounding (subtly, but clearly perceptible at least to me), how precisely is this supposed to be reflected in those charts? Accurate pointers would be welcome.

Assuming for a moment that differences of this type are identifiably reflected, wouldn't that also mean that we are just a step away from some software filling us in on whether Wes Montgomery or Tal Farlow was an “objectively better” guitarist? In terms of timing or harmonic content at least, conclusions of this type should be within reach.

My theory: I guess you can get some interesting results by way of objective analysis—whether about sound or even about timing or harmonic content—but things will instantly fall apart once we are talking about “narrative”. Trying to analyze this “objectively” is similarly naive as inferring the potential of machine translation from the performance of chess computers. And “narrative” here would be just another angle of the “guitar that talks to me” concept (since a guitar that talks to me will hopefully also talk to others through me—well, hopefully). And isn’t this what we REALLY mean when we talk about "sound" (at least most of the time)?

I’d be interested in hearing reports about people who may have found their favorite guitar based on a spectrum chart.

(Edit re “the guitar that talks to me”. Unlike sometimes suggested here, to me the concept of different guitars as such does not mean that I have illusions as to specific guitars making me a better player, but there is definitely a tendency for different guitars stimulating me to play differently, thus being a source of inspiration and, by implication, a source of good sound—at least subjectively.)

[peskypesky]

I can't guess which is the Les Paul and which is the Joe Pass. To my ears, they sound very close.

[peskypesky]

Trying to analyze this “objectively” is similarly naive as inferring the potential of machine translation from the performance of chess computers. And “narrative” here would be just another angle of the “guitar that talks to me” concept (since a guitar that talks to me will hopefully also talk to others through me—well, hopefully). And isn’t this what we REALLY mean when we talk about "sound" (at least most of the time)?

What in God's name are you talking about??????????

[palindrome]

What in God's name are you talking about??????????

Hmmmm -- was I asking whether any two spectrum charts generated by the same guitarist might tell us more about the player than about the guitars?