Laminate top vs maple or spruce?

[tdearn]

A**hole alert, he was kicked out of the other thread Blue so now he's come in here, I'm off guys.

Thanks Para and others for your s and others advice relating to the initial question.

[Music]

A**hole alert, he was kicked out of the other thread Blue so now he's come in here, I'm off guys.

This is what Mark overlooks.
When I respond, I'm the bad guy,

[Music]

I always thought the question was more on how the "tonewood" affects the vibration of the strings .... and how that vibration influences the electromagnetically generated signal.

I've played enough laminated archtops to know that different guitars do have different acoustic properties and that generates different electrical sounds ... but with laminates that probably has more to do with how thick, how much glue and the number of laminations than with any particular wood species

If "tonewood" has no affect on the electromagnetically generated signal .. then an SG would sound like a Les Paul and an L5 would sound the same ... and a strat with a humbucker would sound like any one of these guitars

You might be surprised how little difference there actually is in reality, as opposed to the world of believers and their confirmation biases..

http://www.latrobe.edu.au/synergy/synergy-news-articles/$10k-or-$300-guitar-it-sounds-the-same

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/te...uitar_wood.pdf

[palindrome]

You might be surprised how little difference there actually is in reality, as opposed to the world of believers and their confirmation biases..

$10K or $300 guitar - it sounds the same, Synergy, La Trobe University

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/te...uitar_wood.pdf

For some reason, this reminds me of a discussion I recently saw on TV, in which a 25-year-old self-styled diet nerd was adamant about knocking down the points of a senior professor of epidemiology by insisting on results of a study that one of this buddies in some sort of lab had come up with (in vitro, of course).

[Music]

For some reason, this reminds me of a discussion I recently saw on TV, in which a 25-year-old self-styled diet nerd was adamant about knocking down the points of a senior professor of epidemiology by insisting on results of a study that one of this buddies in some sort of lab had come up with (in vitro, of course).

If your point is that scientific rigor is inferior to the opinions of agenda driven clerics and obviously, demonstrating that the AC current created by a pickup registering a transverse wave is not substantively altered by the body wood is just a bunch of highfalutin academic mumbo jumbo, OK.

LOL, but OK.

[Archie]

Can we have this debate in another thread?

To the Op I would suggest trying the Guilds Ghost Lady mentioned too.

[palindrome]

If your point is that scientific rigor is inferior to the opinions of agenda driven clerics and obviously, demonstrating that the AC current created by a pickup registering a transverse wave is not substantively altered by the body wood is just a bunch of highfalutin academic mumbo jumbo, OK.
LOL, but OK.

My point actually is that trying to knock down the expression "to catch a cold" by insisting that sneezing and coughing is the result of contracting an external virus ignores the possibility that exposure to a draft may, by lamellar action, have a cooling effect on the sensitive throat area that stimulates viruses already residing there.

In other words, "to catch a cold" is an empirical truth, although there may be better explanations scientifically. It's been real to such an overwhelming number of reasonable people that the odd nitpicker had better make sure that he actually grasped the underlying message.

(OK, perhaps there is no need to elaborate on this further. Just wanted to point out that I think Music's thinking is flawed here -- forgiveably so, I may add.)

[Rob22315]

Music,

Those articles analyze solid body guitars. They say or prove nothing about hollow body guitars, big difference since the pickup is mounted on the highly resonant body on my and many archtops. If that is your scientific proof, then you've got none.

That said, I also play bass and am in the camp that body tonewoods don't factor into how a solid body guitar or bass sound. That doesn't mean I see a need to constantly rail on those who do. You need to stop getting in people's faces on this - just my opinion.

Or at least offer some scientific proof that tonewoods don't matter on electric hollow body guitars. Right now you have none.

[Music]

Music,

Those articles analyze solid body guitars. They say or prove nothing about hollow body guitars, big difference since the pickup is mounted on the highly resonant body on my and many archtops. If that is your scientific proof, then you've got none.

That said, I also play bass and am in the camp that body tonewoods don't factor into how a solid body guitar or bass sound. That doesn't mean I see a need to constantly rail on those who do. You need to stop getting in people's faces on this - just my opinion.

Or at least offer some scientific proof that tonewoods don't matter on electric hollow body guitars. Right now you have none.

It applies just the same.

Electromagnetic pickup signal isn't caused by 'body resonance'.
Here's a nice, simple writeup that articulates the 101 basics. HowStuffWorks "How Electric Guitars Work"

If you understood any of the scientific basics, you wouldn't be so puzzled as to think that what was demonstrated above is somehow not applicable to hollowbody instruments. Would you like me to explain how feedback works, too, and why its more common in hollow body instruments but essentially unrelated to the electomagnetic 'tone' signal? Because I could see how someone who didn't understand any of the science (you) might be apt to confuse it all since hollowbody instruments do credibly feed back more than solidbody instruments and AINT DAT WHAR DA TOAN KUMZ FRUM?!?!

[JBGM]

You might be surprised how little difference there actually is in reality, as opposed to the world of believers and their confirmation biases..

http://www.latrobe.edu.au/synergy/synergy-news-articles/$10k-or-$300-guitar-it-sounds-the-same

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/te...uitar_wood.pdf

I actually exchanged emails with Keith Soper, author of the telecaster article, and obtained a copy of his original data. His guitar was a Telecaster and the pickups were mounted on a plate. Practically all people who claim some basic knowledge of physics to support the idea that wood does not matter are experimenting on tele-like guitars, with pickups mounted on a plate. A simple test indicates why this is important: pluck a string and put a finger on the neck pickup. Do you feel any vibration at all? Plate-mount (strat, tele, etc) players say no. Direct-mount (Les Paul, etc) guitar players say yes. Since the current is produced by the relative position of the string with respect to the magnets, the vibration of a pickup will affect the current sent to the amplifier. In case of doubt, please go to a music store and test it yourself. In other words, the wood affects little the current produced by pickups in plate-mounts, and significantly more the tone of guitars with pickups supported directly by the top.

You might be surprised how little difference there actually is in reality, as opposed to the world of believers and their confirmation biases..

Any guitar player who has played on pickups directly mounted on the wood can attest that cedar and maple produce different sounds with the same pickup and electronics. Some people can make a solid body sound like a Gibson ES-175... as long as you roll down to tone knob and filter out a significant number of frequencies on both guitars. If you think that laminate maple sounds the same as solid cedar, do not buy the Gibson ES-175 and purchase the Epiphone Joe Pass instead (disclosure #1: that is exactly what I did, but for monetary reasons). Conclusion: Both sides of the discussion are correct, provided that you take into consideration the pickup setup. Mr Music, you are dismissive and nearly offensive by calling "confirmation bias believers" those of us who answer with our experience as opposed to our bias.

Furthermore, Soper's paper shows that the biggest differences in the tone of a Telecaster is in the high frequencies, and yes, there is a measurable difference in tone due to woods, albeit a small (and hardly audible) one. Soper's paper can be substantially enhanced given the quality of this data. However, there is no definitive evidence published anywhere (disclosure #2: I am a math professor, and I am trying to get funds to teach physics and math to students with this experimental comparison... not the highest priority in funding agencies, though). The Latrobe references is simply not credible. Nothing has been published (i.e. no finding has passed the filter of peer-reviews).

Going back to the original question, I have played in large venues with my Epi Joe Pass (solid cedar top) in front of my amplifier and monitors (using high distortion at times), and I have never had feedback problems. I have seen a player playing a Gibson ES-175 (laminate maple top) with full distortion, high volume, and no feedback at all. I think how you place yourself with respect to the speakers, and stage set up, play a bigger role than the wood in terms of feedback; this is something that you learn with practice. I would get the laminate maple top Gibson ES-175 if I could afford it. I love my solid cedar top Epi JP, though.

[Bluedawg]

You might be surprised how little difference there actually is in reality, as opposed to the world of believers and their confirmation biases..

http://www.latrobe.edu.au/synergy/synergy-news-articles/$10k-or-$300-guitar-it-sounds-the-same

http://www.stormriders.com/guitar/te...uitar_wood.pdf

The Latrobe article gives us no details about the guitars tested ... some graphs like the second one would be nice .. interesting, but not very useful.

The stormrider article only looks at ash and alder tele style bodies with bolt on necks ... which doesn't tell us anything about mahogany or maple or a glued fixed neck. The article admits to a definite difference in the acoustic nature of the bodies.

I see differences in the electric output graphs that are as much as 10 dB in places ... but then they wave their hand and say it's the same .... I suspect these subtle differences are what an experienced player is hearing when they pick one over the other

These tests would be more conclusive IMHO if they used blind tests with human listeners instead of using an audio spectrum analyzer without taking into account how human hearing interacts with the sound produced ... the more blind listeners the better especially with a few experienced musicians and audiophiles in the listening group .... kind of like the blind tests with violins and wine tasting that have made the rounds on the internet

All that said ... when the band starts up the differences will be even less noticeable and the average audience member isn't going to care

And sound/tone isn't the only reason people like certain models or woods .... there's the feel in your hands, the craftsmanship, beauty and even the bling for some folks ... to say nothing of resale value and collectability

And of course the discussion here is about hollowbodies

[Bluedawg]

It applies just the same.

Electromagnetic pickup signal isn't caused by 'body resonance'.
Here's a nice, simple writeup that articulates the 101 basics. HowStuffWorks "How Electric Guitars Work"

If you understood any of the scientific basics, you wouldn't be so puzzled as to think that what was demonstrated above is somehow not applicable to hollowbody instruments. Would you like me to explain how feedback works, too, and why its more common in hollow body instruments but essentially unrelated to the electomagnetic 'tone' signal? Because I could see how someone who didn't understand any of the science (you) might be apt to confuse it all since hollowbody instruments do credibly feed back more than solidbody instruments and AINT DAT WHAR DA TOAN KUMZ FRUM?!?!

Ummm ... the whole point of a hollowbody is for the bridge to interact with vibrations of the top .... which interacts with the vibrations of the string ... which generate the electromagnetic current as they vibrate within the magnetic field of the pickup

Your essentially saying that an L5 sounds just like a Les Paul and we're fooling ourselves if we think different

[peskypesky]

Thanks guys. I'm particularly interested in the cheaper George Benson model. The LGB 30. It looks good value on paper and comes with a hardcase for about 700 pounds. But am I simply paying for the Benson name?

I hadn't heard of that model. Seems like a lot of guitar for the money.

[tdearn]

I hadn't heard of that model. Seems like a lot of guitar for the money.

It does. I'm just not really one for signature guitars and wouldn't want to pay just for the name. Don't get me wrong I am a George Benson fan but wouldn't want to pay extra for someone's name on the headstock, even if it was my personal favourite-Kenny Burrell. For me i think its between the LGB 30 and the Epiphone 175 but there are a few other things I need to check out thanks to the advice from guys on here.

[Music]

Ummm ... the whole point of a hollowbody is for the bridge to interact with vibrations of the top .... which interacts with the vibrations of the string ... which generate the electromagnetic current as they vibrate within the magnetic field of the pickup

Your essentially saying that an L5 sounds just like a Les Paul and we're fooling ourselves if we think different

I don't want to be mean (only because you have a dog that looks just like mine), so I'll just politely suggest you go learn the scientific basis of all this. I can't 'discuss' this with someone who very clearly doesn't understand any of it and is filling in the knowledge gaps with his own bad narratives of how things 'must work' since he doesn't understand how they 'actually work'.

Cute dog though.

[ninjasan]

I don't want to be mean (only because you have a dog that looks just like mine), so I'll just politely suggest you go learn the scientific basis of all this. I can't 'discuss' this with someone who very clearly doesn't understand any of it and is filling in the knowledge gaps with his own bad narratives of how things 'must work' since he doesn't understand how they 'actually work'.

Cute dog though.

Ha Ha, Nobel Price of sophist's sufficience for this one !
(politely suggested of course)

Cute efforts of trolling though ...

[Jazz_175]

Please, explain to us, poor mortals, how it works. I'm sure there are among us people who have a degree in physics or engineering and can understand your lecturing on the subject.

[Klatu]

MAH PAW TOLL ME TOAN COMES FRUM JESUSWOOD AND AINT NOBODY GUNNA TELL ME NO DIFFERNT! ASK ANY GUITAR PLAYER IN THE CHOIR ABOUT THIS AND THEY'LL TELL YOU THE SAME! TAKE YER SCIENCE BACK TO THE FANCY-PANTS KNOW IT ALLS AH AINT GOTS NO USE FER IT ROUND HERE!

That's damn funny!

[Archie]

I don't want to be mean (only because you have a dog that looks just like mine), so I'll just politely suggest you go learn the scientific basis of all this. I can't 'discuss' this with someone who very clearly doesn't understand any of it and is filling in the knowledge gaps with his own bad narratives of how things 'must work' since he doesn't understand how they 'actually work'.

Cute dog though.

Again it comes down to a basic fact.

Different guitars are made with different woods, in different sizes, with differing construction/bracing types etc..Therefore they will, sound different. Otherwise and again an obvious point, why would there be different types of guitars required?

If on the other hand, your more concerned with the most anal points made by players about bobbins, brass saddles on a tele, a maple freeboard as opposed to a rosewood, then I would have to say in turn, that you have to consider the variables, which are missing in your argument, rendering it pointless.

Someone in a blind-fold test, listening to a tele with a rosewood fb, will probably be unable to confirm through listening, whether the fretboard is indeed rosewood or maple. This is because he or she would not know if the body is Alder or Ash, what the pick-ups are and what the pick-up configuration is, what bridge material is used etc..

However, the player knows there is a difference in tone because they know that, if he/she had the exact same guitar, playing through the exact same amp, on the exact same settings but with any of the above variations mentioned, the guitar will sound and perform differently.

So saying people are stupid, or calling them idiots because the even a skilled listener, in a blind test, couldn't tell the difference, completely misses the point.

There is a point at high volumes, when the the of guitar becomes less and less important and jazz can often be played at those volumes but that doesn't mean you just buy a plank of wood, stating that for the other 75% when your not gigging "Who gives a sh*t what my guar sounds like"

Again I think this should be a new thread of its own, so the Op can carry on getting the info he needs.

To the OP, I have to say that IMO, I do not like the Epiphone ES-175's they just feel cheep to me and although not bad, they don't offer much of a playing experience. I know that many players though, do enjoy them, so that is my personal opinion. Although I'm not sure if they have updated the model.

[Archie]

@Music

Theres so many variable that make what your saying so pointless to me.

Pic type

Room size, construction.

Amp type

Age of strings

String thickness

volume

plus all the things you mentioned and then some.

Most people go into a room to play everyday either alone or with a band, your rehearsal/practice room, or you do gigs in the same place regularly. Thats one set of parameters. You like a certain size of guitar because you feel most comfortable and effective playing it etc thats another set.
The materials and design of the guitar are the variables you can tweak, to maximise your tone and the guitars practicality.

Anyway, your telling me every jazz guitarist sounds exactly the same on all the records? Pff of course not. Who cares if YOU can't tell exactly what type of guitar they're playing, they can and its probably why they sound so good.

[Archie]

Predicate fallacy. Stopped reading right there.
In a courtroom, they would say 'assumes facts not in evidence'.

Now to be sure, the believers will be along like clockwork with their drooling narratives about how they could TOTALLY TELL THE DIFFERENCE AND THAT YOUR EARS ARE TERRIBLE IF YOU COULDN'T HEAR THE (insert superlatives here) OF THE (insert guitar here) AND HOW IT SOUNDED NOTHING LIKE (insert different guitar here) WHICH SOUNDS MORE LIKE (insert different superlatives here)... Just like bigfoot believers will go on TV and totally insist they saw a giant monkey behind their shed last night, just like a fat welfare queen will go on Maury and claim with 100% certainty that LaShawn COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE THE FATHER, just like somewhere out there someone insists that last night they were abducted by a flying saucer, idiots will say (and often times, sincerely believe) the dumbest shit.

Just because you can rustle up a retard willing to claim that he took a sugar pill and it cured his cancer doesn't mean that sugar cures cancer.

Well why would you expect me to read you post, if you claimed to have not read mine? Getting awfully narrow minded in here.

[Archie]

Well why would you expect me to read you post, if you claimed to have not read mine? Getting awfully narrow minded in here.

You fool for your own nonsense.

You can't take a video recorded in the 70's (or whenever) with such bad audio and then claim a flat top sounds like an archtop.

You fail to recognise that if YOU were actually present at the gig, the guitars true voice would have been much more apparent.

To be honest, all you managed to prove with that first video, is that a flat-top, sounds like an awful archtop. You can clearly hear @ 1:35 that its an acoustic.

I have no idea what your second video is trying to prove.

[Bluedawg]

I don't want to be mean (only because you have a dog that looks just like mine), so I'll just politely suggest you go learn the scientific basis of all this. I can't 'discuss' this with someone who very clearly doesn't understand any of it and is filling in the knowledge gaps with his own bad narratives of how things 'must work' since he doesn't understand how they 'actually work'.

Cute dog though.

He was a great dog ... but unfortanately, he died last December .....


I suspect that he was poisoned by an internet troll.

[AlainJazz]

Is there something wrong with your caps lock key?

[Para]

He's like a bad smell that just won't go away.