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Gigging with a singer soon, and trying various amps for my Gibson 345. Now I'm wondering if I could go straight into her 600 Watt PA? Maybe I'd need something to go into before going into the PA?
Cleanish jazz sound with some breakup...
Thoughts and suggestions, please...
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09-29-2014 08:55 AM
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Ethos Overdrive is perfect for running straight into a p.a. - despite the name they are excellent for clean and slight breakup tones.
However, on a budget the Joyo American Sound pedal would probably do a very good job based on the clips I've heard posted here.
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I never liked any analog cabinet emulation I heard... The best bang for the buck is the Line6 Pod HD Bean. Just got one on a trade and the cabinet / mic emulations are much better than the Zoom G3 ones. With a rat before it I can manage my cleans and dirty sounds and carry it on a really small gig bag.
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I really second that.
Originally Posted by 3625
I own one for about nine month or so, and though the break up slope could be a tad smoother, if you don't use it as an overdrive but as a clean amp sim, i think it does a terrific job, and all analog.
The EQ and Voice controls really have a drastic effect and i get very close to a Twin sound or a Mesa combo or a Polytone, for a ridiculous price.
And it is sturdy actually.
The kind of pedal you leave on always and tweak the eq to you need of the moment, as one would do with any amp.
I am running it into a powered speaker, EV ZLX15P and i am extremely satisfied.
I am actually still a bit surprised ...
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Rob,
On a gig like that you really should try a modeling pedal into the PA. For what the audience will hear, you will be quite satisfied. There are stupid inexpensive pedals--like the Digitech RP155--that get you reasonably close to the Polytone or the Twin Reverb. Into a PA this is all you need for traditional jazz for a throw and go gig. For grit, just use the Deluxe model. (The Deluxe is what a lot of the 335-style guys record with, i.e., Coryell and Sco.)
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Tech 21 Blonde
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One thing about digital stuff - they do require quite a learning curve... The Digitech and Zoom units are fine but the Line6 is really a step above and given it's recent half price drop it's a no brainer (if you have the patience to dial a good preset). Analog Gear (tech21 or ethos) are much more plug and play. Digitals have another big advantage - they include reverb, tuner, parametric eq, etc...
Last edited by jorgemg1984; 09-29-2014 at 10:15 AM.
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Sure, but if it's just a relatively traditional "jazz" gig, personally, a Joyo American Sound and a TC Hall Of Fame reverb straight into a decent P.A. and i would be really happy. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Many digital modelers like my Zoom G3 or the Boss Cosm modeling have one problem: their speaker and amp simulations really eat up the low end from 80hz to the bottom.
Just guitar and voice ... well, sure you need all the bass you can, don't you ?
I find that my American Sound pedal absolutely does not take off any fatness in the bass department, and that's probably the first reason why i like it so much. It has a non tweakable speaker simulator that does its job. I actually am a bit turned off by all the mike choice, mike placements, cab choices in many virtual amps because the choices are overwhelming and i want to focus on music. Many options of mic choice and placement are basically slight EQ changes anyway.
Cab choice is a bit different, many possible voicings, but the one in the Joyo A.S. just works fine and easily gets forgotten.
Personally, i don't need more :-)
On the other hand, for relatively long and lush reverbs, no "cheapo" did cut it for me before the TC HOF.
It took this little red box to make me appreciate pedal reverbs, because it's hard to compete against a Lexicon unit, or a great VST reverb: ever tried Valhalla Room VST plugin ? $35 and a sound that easily rivals Eventide or Lexicon, just awesome.Last edited by xuoham; 09-29-2014 at 10:44 AM.
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Well all that is debatable. Originally Posted by xuoham
A parametric eq is always good to adjust to rooms, no matter if you play traditional or modern (whatever that is).
A tuner (and the mute that it provides) is also very practical.
I never realized the sub 80hz thing because I always get rid of that (usually a low cut on 100hz-120hz). I play lots of duos with singers and no, I don't want all the bass I can have
Never tried the Joyo but have tried quite a few analog cab simulators (including the ADA GCS-2, which is supposed to be the best) and they all sound like a refined high cut filter, very different from an actual amp miced. The only modeler I had with several mic options is the Line6 and the difference in sound is unbelievable from mic to mic (or even from on axis to off axis) - as it should be. Different cabs on all modelers I tried also provided very different sounds - and, again, as it should be.
I had an HOF, excellent reverb - the reverbs on the G3 or the Line6 are very close if you don't play ambient music.
I never understood the "too many options" argument because I want to focus on music... What it's hard it's the first few hours. As soon as I have dialed a good sound with the L6 (and all the extra options vs the Zoom G3 provided that) it's done - I just plug and play and do minor tweaks from room to room.
But hey whatever works for you and whatever works for me
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Good to see all the responses. I'll read through them later this evening when I have more time. But thanks for all the responses so far!
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Yep, you have to look at all the pedals and features, and figure out what you need/want. Notching out feedback is a good one to have for your application. Years ago when I shopped, I ended up choosing a Baggs PADI.
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I absolutely agree with these points. Many of the pedals "get" the jazz modeling sound by being "true" to the subsonic spectrum...if "truth" is what's being modeled. Originally Posted by xuoham
I agree that sub-80hz is what you _don't_ want in a coffee house setting when you are playing guitar/vocal. It is virtually unusable, but it gobbles up the power in the PA copiously.
As a rule, I find myself moving away from the use of much, if any, reverb in gig situations, these days. I find that the room provides more or less all of the bloom that my signal needs. This is especially true if I use a Fender circuit to nail the Blue Note/Wes tones from the 60s. A tweed Deluxe needs no reverb at all in order to sound just fantastic in a room, any more than a Marshall half-stack needs reverb to sound convincingly great in a rock gig.
Someone mentioned the Tech21--good pedal.
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OK, lots to think about. It can be depressing watching the pedal reviews on youtube, as, of course, no one is the slightest bit interested in jazz, but do seem overly keen on showing how moronic they can be. I don't mind heavy distortion, but does it always have to be accompanied with stupid facial contortions? That aside...
I received a Mambo 10" on Friday, but wrote to Jon today asking if I can return it - I know, Shock! Horror! What's wrong with me?! Well, my Gibson 345 just sounds a bit dead with it. The amp can of course give a clean sound, and I tried all weekend to get the sound I want - slightly breaking up valve-type - and resorted to adding a Gain Stage Red pedal for smooth breakup - but it just didn't do it for me. I perceive this as being my fault. The amp does what it does very well, and might well be the cat's pyjamas with a floating pickup on an acoustic-style archtop, or even a 175-type with a humbucker. But I just can't find the sound I'm looking for with my 345. Jon hasn't replied yet, so...
Then I thought, why not just go through her PA? Few of the pedals mentioned above are easily available in the UK, but the Line 6 Pod Bean is, although it's a bit expensive, especially for one sound.
I tried a number of amps in the stores here, and the nicest warmth I heard from clean sound came from a Mesa-Boogie 25 Express - but the background hum was a deal killer.
So, the gig is in two weeks. Either I'll still have the Mambo, or I'll have got a refund and will get a pedal for the PA.
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It's all about coverage speaking as both a musician and audio mixer. If you amp can cover all areas of the room once filled then use you amp. If you can't cover the room then do you have a good monitor system that if you were to run direct you'll still be able to hear yourself as well as the singer. This is why I like small amps in general, if they don't cover the room I like to be mic'd. That way my am is my monitor and I'm feeding the house system via the mic for coverage. PODs and similar ilk are okay again depends on the monitor system. Both amp and direct feed can be an issue because hard to tell you level in the room. Plus most these young audio guys think they are mixing a record not doing live audio AKA sound reinforcement. You see a sound guy constantly putting headphones on all the time, slap 'em. Unless they are balancing vocals no need for headphone live, listen to the room.
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If you want an edge of breakup sound, you're going to have to live with a higher noise floor, regardless of how it is accomplished, i.e. either from the amp or from a pedal.
Personally, I'd never go direct into a PA. The amp is part of the electric guitar, like the sound board is part of the acoustic guitar. Non-negotiable for me, though YMMV.
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There will be no sound guy. One singer. One guitar player. Audience max 45. Small venue.
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In the later years Joe Pass went direct into the PA.
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well if you looking for hint of breakup .... i mostly use amps but i just love the Boss FDR-1 pedal (model of a 65 deluxe reverb and yes includes reverb and even a tremelo which can be set to tempo with tap function ...might not be the best when comparing it next to a real tube amp (but no pedals beat a real tube amp) but as a preamp it offers me a lot in a small package .... and i do have the attitude of if the gig is a small restaurant/cigar bar either take a Princeton or a FDR 1 pedal if you want fender tone ........ often i find in small gigs the less gear you have the better .....
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Just bought the Joyo American for a very low price. I've either wasted £20, or it will be a great investment.
Thanks for for the above. We shall see what happens.
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Isn't the Joyo American a copy of the Tech 21 Blonde? My experience with Joyo is eventually the pots get a bit scratchy.
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Now you guys have got me wanting to get out my old Boss GT-8 and see what kind of Jazz sound I can get out of it.
Talk about a device with a learning curve....!
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Rob, Originally Posted by Rob MacKillop
Ah...Guitar Face! I think nearly all guitar players involuntarily move their mouths just a wee bit when they play...something about the neuro-muscular connections with the nerves in our arms and hands, I guess. The big grimmaces and looks of shock and horror, however, that you see on rockers' faces when they solo are just part of rock theater, right in there with wigs, leather, spandex, and big tatoos on little arms. I was never quite sure what the looks conveyed, but they seem to suggest: "this instrument is trying to dominate me, but I will get the better of it, just watch." All I know is that Jimi Hendrix never made that face. He looked, instead, like he might nod off (Smack?). He definitely had the upper hand in the effort to control the snakes crawling all over the neck of his Stratocaster.
After Jimi, everybody else was just posing.
GT
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Agreed!
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I am currently using Carl Martin RockBug. I plug my pedal board into it and then plug it via XLR to mixer. So I presume It would work the same with PA.
It is great setup if I want to practice late at night. My bass player can bring his Zoom B3 and we can have headphone jam without disturbing anybody. I am actually thinking about adding electronic drumset to my music room and have complete silent practice setup.
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My daughter, aged 17, loves so-called silent discos, where everyone has headphones, half the crowd listening to one track, the other half to another. You guys could start a silent concert. Big bucks await you
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