Guitar price vs value

[SierraTango]

No offense to the Benedetto or any other elite guitar builder, but the "sound of quality" is not in any guitar, it's in the hands and skill of a player....always. Reality check time....Now, back to your gear salivation exchange....

I've got some extra clout with trumpet players around here as I have a major label recording credit with Donald Byrd (RIP)-guess they respect that LOL.

[jazz.fred]

I really don't agree with that. In my experience, the Ibanez Artcore Expressionist Series guitars that retail for about $600 sound every bit as good as a new laminate Gibson Archtop that sells for many times that price (plus the quality control on the Ibanez is way better).

+1. Agreed. The Ibanez Artcore/Artstar series archtops are very good quality instruments at incredibly reasonable prices. My AF-125 hollowbody is a very nice guitar.

Gibson Quality Control/Assurance sucks. It's almost like they don't care. I know a guy who bought a brand new ES 335. The bridge had been incorrectly drilled and the guitar would not intonate. It was clearly a manufacturing error. Of course, he got his money back.

[SuperFour00]

Well in that case, you've earned a pass.

And say hello to my Benedetto. $3500

OK, somebody tell me why this "Benedetto" has a staggered fingerstyle trapeze if the length of the string behind the bridge has no effect on the feel of the action. I'd especially like to hear from the rude jack***es who couldn't grok the difference between string tension and deflection/ friction caused by string break angle and string length behind the bridge. Here's your chance to illustrate how this tailpiece has no useful purpose, as you-all claimed in the earlier tailpiece wrapping thread.

[Greentone]

Guys, this has been a great thread. Lots of variables in play. Sources and skills of labor. Sources and quality of wood and other materials. Quality of designs. Aesthetics. NAME. So much to consider, so little time.

Asian labor. I have been considering this one all of my life. As a boy, my family moved to Hawaii, where I lived for four years. The (then) brand new state was a melting pot in which mainland US folks were in the minority. In school we studied not only US, but also Chinese, Japanese, Philippine, Korean, and Polynesian cultures and history. It was an amazing experience for me.

I watched "made in Japan" get transformed from signifying "cheap," "throw away," to "exceptional," "error free" in the course of a single generation. From the late-50s to the mid-70s the Japanese moved from producing inexpensive, if novel electric and acoustic guitar designs, to making guitars that rivaled what was coming out of the US and Europe. I do not think this is at all an exaggeration. By the 80s, MIJ Fender guitars were (IMO) better than US Fenders being made at that point. Ibanez, Aria, Yairi, and Yamaha guitars were comparable to US-made _production_ instruments.

Woods. The big problem, world-wide, by the 80s (again, IMO) was that wood supplies were not what they had been for guitars in the 20s-60s, relative to the demand for guitars. Makers all over the world were resorting to kiln drying wood--not a perfect substitute for air drying large stocks that makers like Martin, Gibson and others maintained for decades, at one point. I think this tipped the balance in favor of the small shops, that were able to hunt and purchase wood in small quantities that were impractical for the production companies. (Consider the plain woods that came out on even high end Gibsons in the 70s and 80s. I have seen L5CES guitars with no curl to the back and sides from that period. They sound nice, though. I never thought the volute was an issue.)

Designs. This is a knotty problem. I am not enough of a luthier to be competent to judge the likes of Benedetto on the merits of his designs. His guitars are obviously pretty. The ones I have played (Manhattans) have sounded pretty derned good. Still, as with the case of Fender's LTD, I marvel at how an archtop can work so well with so shallow a neck angle and headstock angle. The design strays pretty far from Classical-period violin-family design, almost hearkening back to early violin (Stradivari) design. Virtually every Strad has a modern neck/fingerboard replacement. Old violins had shallow neck angles (shorter, too--no fingerboard extensions over the body). They produced a resulting sound that was softer. Of course, violins weren't required in the 17th century to produce sound over the top of a 19th century symphony orchestra. Steeper neck angles solved this problem. Similarly, for _acoustic_ instrument purposes, it seems to me that the neck angles of Loar (Gibson), Stromberg, Epiphone, and D'Angelico solved the problem of how to force sound out of an archtop body that would carry over a horn-based jazz band. The strings, at the point of the bridge, are higher over the body in a Loar design than they are in a Benedetto design. This equals volume. Add a pickup and it is of no importance.

Playing archtops for 50 years, I have gotten so used to Gibson and Epiphone angles, that picking up a Benedetto or a Dale Unger, or another Benedetto-derived design just feels hybrid, to me. Having said that, I must confess that a carved Benedetto or a carved American Archtop both sounds and plays beautifully to me. It's just an aesthetic thing. So, I like 2bop's Benedetto. :-)

Name. Of course, there is so much in a name. In bluegrass, I never played a finer guitar than an early LoPrinzi blue line LR15. The guitar doesn't have the "name" though that many "grassers" look for. These days, they want one of Dana Bourgeois's flattops. Or else, they want to show up with a pre-War Martin D-18 or D-28. (They _are_ that good, by the way.) _Name_ in archtops? I suppose that D'Aquisto is still the ne plus ultra (although the non-Jimmy-made instruments may water the reputation down). Used Jimmy-made guitars still bring top dollar. Are they that good? You tell me...I have never had the pleasure, I'm afraid. They sound good on record and in concert, to me.

Conclusions? I would concur with what has been said above by others--compare lams to lams and carved guitars to carved guitars. IMO Gibson made the best laminated guitars ever. The Tal Farlow, ES350, 300, 175, 150 (I never played a 250) of their peak periods--1937-sale to Norlin--are simply exceptional laminated archtop guitars. Some of the 1970s Japanese archtops come close, and may compare favorably with Norlin-era examples of the above-mentioned guitars. My PE-180 sure does.

Carved guitars are another beast. The Gibson L5CES and the Heritage Golden Eagle, the Gibson Super 400CES and the Heritage Super Eagle are wonderful guitars. (The same goes for the two Johnny Smiths.) Many, many small maker carved guitars are worthy to play and own in this group. Instead of going with set pickups, you can go with a floater--like the JS. A carved archtop with a floating pickup may just be the most exquisite sound that an electric guitar is capable of making, IMO. For me, the Super 400 with a DeArmond 1100 pickup is the king of the hill. I am sure that I could be swayed by small shop examples, here, but I just haven't had the experience yet.

I apologize for the book chapter, as it were.

[SuperFour00]

What's that? U mean to tell me there was a previous forum thread whereby there was disagreement?

Nope, people have to understand the debate to disagree. When people are incapable of understanding the terms of a debate, there is no disagreement. Does your post illustrate the extent of your knowledge about archtop tailpieces? Does the dark shade emoticon mean: I don't understand how tailpieces and bridges interact, so ... smiley!"? ;-) Is that finger tailpiece the only useless, uncool part of that awesome guitar? Or is it the most awesome part of that guitar?

[Patrick2]

SuperFour . . that *Benedetto* you referenced with the finger tailpiece, is actually a Heritage Golden Eagle. One of the most beautiful one's I've ever seen too!! Here's another . . . this is my vintage wine burst Golden Eagle;

(I just love posting pix of my Heritage guitars. There's a guy around here who looks forward to seeing 2 Heritage posts every week. Wouldn't want to disappoint him)

[fumblefingers]

Guys, this has been a great thread. Lots of variables in play. Sources and skills of labor. Sources and quality of wood and other materials. Quality of designs. Aesthetics. NAME. So much to consider, so little time.

Asian labor. I have been considering this one all of my life. As a boy, my family moved to Hawaii, where I lived for four years. The (then) brand new state was a melting pot in which mainland US folks were in the minority. In school we studied not only US, but also Chinese, Japanese, Philippine, Korean, and Polynesian cultures and history. It was an amazing experience for me.

I watched "made in Japan" get transformed from signifying "cheap," "throw away," to "exceptional," "error free" in the course of a single generation. From the late-50s to the mid-70s the Japanese moved from producing inexpensive, if novel electric and acoustic guitar designs, to making guitars that rivaled what was coming out of the US and Europe. I do not think this is at all an exaggeration. By the 80s, MIJ Fender guitars were (IMO) better than US Fenders being made at that point. Ibanez, Aria, Yairi, and Yamaha guitars were comparable to US-made _production_ instruments.

Woods. The big problem, world-wide, by the 80s (again, IMO) was that wood supplies were not what they had been for guitars in the 20s-60s, relative to the demand for guitars. Makers all over the world were resorting to kiln drying wood--not a perfect substitute for air drying large stocks that makers like Martin, Gibson and others maintained for decades, at one point. I think this tipped the balance in favor of the small shops, that were able to hunt and purchase wood in small quantities that were impractical for the production companies. (Consider the plain woods that came out on even high end Gibsons in the 70s and 80s. I have seen L5CES guitars with no curl to the back and sides from that period. They sound nice, though. I never thought the volute was an issue.)

Designs. This is a knotty problem. I am not enough of a luthier to be competent to judge the likes of Benedetto on the merits of his designs. His guitars are obviously pretty. The ones I have played (Manhattans) have sounded pretty derned good. Still, as with the case of Fender's LTD, I marvel at how an archtop can work so well with so shallow a neck angle and headstock angle. The design strays pretty far from Classical-period violin-family design, almost hearkening back to early violin (Stradivari) design. Virtually every Strad has a modern neck/fingerboard replacement. Old violins had shallow neck angles (shorter, too--no fingerboard extensions over the body). They produced a resulting sound that was softer. Of course, violins weren't required in the 17th century to produce sound over the top of a 19th century symphony orchestra. Steeper neck angles solved this problem. Similarly, for _acoustic_ instrument purposes, it seems to me that the neck angles of Loar (Gibson), Stromberg, Epiphone, and D'Angelico solved the problem of how to force sound out of an archtop body that would carry over a horn-based jazz band. The strings, at the point of the bridge, are higher over the body in a Loar design than they are in a Benedetto design. This equals volume. Add a pickup and it is of no importance.

Playing archtops for 50 years, I have gotten so used to Gibson and Epiphone angles, that picking up a Benedetto or a Dale Unger, or another Benedetto-derived design just feels hybrid, to me. Having said that, I must confess that a carved Benedetto or a carved American Archtop both sounds and plays beautifully to me. It's just an aesthetic thing. So, I like 2bop's Benedetto. :-)

Name. Of course, there is so much in a name. In bluegrass, I never played a finer guitar than an early LoPrinzi blue line LR15. The guitar doesn't have the "name" though that many "grassers" look for. These days, they want one of Dana Bourgeois's flattops. Or else, they want to show up with a pre-War Martin D-18 or D-28. (They _are_ that good, by the way.) _Name_ in archtops? I suppose that D'Aquisto is still the ne plus ultra (although the non-Jimmy-made instruments may water the reputation down). Used Jimmy-made guitars still bring top dollar. Are they that good? You tell me...I have never had the pleasure, I'm afraid. They sound good on record and in concert, to me.

Conclusions? I would concur with what has been said above by others--compare lams to lams and carved guitars to carved guitars. IMO Gibson made the best laminated guitars ever. The Tal Farlow, ES350, 300, 175, 150 (I never played a 250) of their peak periods--1937-sale to Norlin--are simply exceptional laminated archtop guitars. Some of the 1970s Japanese archtops come close, and may compare favorably with Norlin-era examples of the above-mentioned guitars. My PE-180 sure does.

Carved guitars are another beast. The Gibson L5CES and the Heritage Golden Eagle, the Gibson Super 400CES and the Heritage Super Eagle are wonderful guitars. (The same goes for the two Johnny Smiths.) Many, many small maker carved guitars are worthy to play and own in this group. Instead of going with set pickups, you can go with a floater--like the JS. A carved archtop with a floating pickup may just be the most exquisite sound that an electric guitar is capable of making, IMO. For me, the Super 400 with a DeArmond 1100 pickup is the king of the hill. I am sure that I could be swayed by small shop examples, here, but I just haven't had the experience yet.

I apologize for the book chapter, as it were.

yep, the Gibson L5 and Super 400 are two of the most obvious guitars that I was alluding to in my first post. of course this type of appreciation can take awhile, but that's OK, you get to use it the entire time.

Arch Top Guitars | Garys Classic Guitars & Vintage Guitars

[SuperFour00]

SuperFour . . that *Benedetto* you referenced with the finger tailpiece, is actually a Heritage Golden Eagle. One of the most beautiful one's I've ever seen too!! Here's another . . . this is my vintage wine burst Golden Eagle;

(I just love posting pix of my Heritage guitars. There's a guy around here who looks forward to seeing 2 Heritage posts every week. Wouldn't want to disappoint him)

Right, beautiful guitar, but what's with the kooky tailpiece? Where exactly are all the know-it-alls who think they have a clue about archtop tailpieces? They should be dissin' that tailpiece all over the place, after all, they think it's function has something to do with string tension.

[Greentone]

Fumble, yep.

I think everyone could tell that 2bop's "Benedetto" was his GE...that's why I chimed in on agreement with it. :-) Great guitar. Never played a Heritage I disliked.

[Hammertone]

Well, the pickup on it says "Benedetto."

[entresz]

I think today cheaper guitars are generally so much better than in the past. I'm very happy that I can get an instrument for under $2000 or so that will be a 'professional' quality guitar. My Gretsch Synchromatic G400 is an example of that. Superb craftsmanship, made in the Terada factory Japan (I think the Vestax D'Angelicos came from there too). Other than a bit of a tweak of the action it was pretty much spot on.

I guess the savings in $$$ would come from the fact they use laminated back and sides, and a pressed solid top- I've confirmed that it's one piece with no laminates (through small hole in top for the pickguard). Not as rich sounding acoustically as a carved top, but still has heaps of volume, and a pleasing sound nonetheless. It has a beautiful neck and slick ebony fingerboard.

I'm amazing how something like a new ES175 costs a fair bit more-- I've played a few and some of them were great, while others were very ordinary.

I guess the point of the ramble is that it's amazing how many great, pro quality guitars are available now for fairly modest prices. For students and struggling working jazz guitarists it's a great thing!!

[Broyale]

I think today cheaper guitars are generally so much better than in the past. I'm very happy that I can get an instrument for under $2000 or so that will be a 'professional' quality guitar. My Gretsch Synchromatic G400 is an example of that. Superb craftsmanship, made in the Terada factory Japan (I think the Vestax D'Angelicos came from there too). Other than a bit of a tweak of the action it was pretty much spot on.

I guess the savings in $$$ would come from the fact they use laminated back and sides, and a pressed solid top- I've confirmed that it's one piece with no laminates (through small hole in top for the pickguard). Not as rich sounding acoustically as a carved top, but still has heaps of volume, and a pleasing sound nonetheless. It has a beautiful neck and slick ebony fingerboard.

I'm amazing how something like a new ES175 costs a fair bit more-- I've played a few and some of them were great, while others were very ordinary.

I guess the point of the ramble is that it's amazing how many great, pro quality guitars are available now for fairly modest prices. For students and struggling working jazz guitarists it's a great thing!!

Viva La Ibanez and Epi Hollowbodies!

[Greentone]

This is the golden age for guitars, in terms of being able to get high quality for entry level to mid-level bucks. You surely can gig with a guitar that costs less than a grand--often, significantly less.

[Jabberwocky]

OK, somebody tell me why this "Benedetto" has a staggered fingerstyle trapeze if the length of the string behind the bridge has no effect on the feel of the action. I'd especially like to hear from the rude jack***es who couldn't grok the difference between string tension and deflection/ friction caused by string break angle and string length behind the bridge. Here's your chance to illustrate how this tailpiece has no useful purpose, as you-all claimed in the earlier tailpiece wrapping thread.

http://www.archtop.com/PageMill_Reso...%203/01LG_.jpg

http://www.archtop.com/PageMill_Reso...mwIQ7tX7Ju.jpg


http://i446.photobucket.com/albums/q...1A53169552.jpg


http://www.tfoa.eu/user_files/images...89027,VG03.JPG

[Jabberwocky]

Once more from the top. Metronôme on 2 and 4. 1 and a 2 and a


Lutherie Myth/Science: Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments

[oldane]

I'd especially like to hear from the rude jack***es who couldn't grok the difference between string tension and deflection/ friction caused by string break angle and string length behind the bridge.

I did participate in the earlier thread and I am fully aware of the difference you mention. It was the significance of it in real life - not the least with Les Paul tailpieces - we disagreed about. However, since I am neither rude nor a jack***, I'm not among those called for by you this time, so I'll stay out of the debate you are trying to reopen.

In addition, this subject has been debated for many decades, and there's hardly any argument which hasn't been presented countless times - also in this forum with its present participants - so at this point it's much like beating a dead horse.

[SuperFour00]

Once more from the top. Metronôme on 2 and 4. 1 and a 2 and a


Lutherie Myth/Science: Human Perception of String Tension and Compliance in Stringed Musical Instruments

I'm glad bormntonotbop likes your link. since it sums up nearly every point I've made on the subject except disagreeing with Benedetto's conclusions, which is subjective.

[Jabberwocky]

One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest?

Edit: As Good As It Gets. The OCD movie.

[Patrick2]

Here's a message to two nice guys off on the wrong foot . . . .

Peace, man . . .

[SuperFour00]

Actually 2b's "like" referenced J-Dub's reference to "metro on 2-4".

Since you're also obviously a bit challenged with Gillespie's Shakespearein' spin on reading 2-b-or-not-2-bop....perhaps henceforth you should become known as 'SuperFour minus 00', a sum total of displayed forum etiquette IQ.

Have at it...or in the words of Jack Nicholson, "go sell crazy someplace else, we're all filled up here."

Your slings and arrows are weak, bornotobop. So, since brevity ... soul ... wit, "I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it".

[jasonc]

Every time I read one of these threads it reinforces the little voice in my head, that I hear every single day, that says "Why are you jacking around building archtops when you could just go to work for a cabinet shop knocking boxes together and actually get paid a decent wage? While also having customers that may actually appreciate what you do (They must because they will actually pay you for your time)." I have to take in repair to subsidize my guitar building habit. Maybe I should seek treatment.

[eh6794]

"Guys, this has been a great thread. Lots of variables in play. Sources and skills of labor. Sources and quality of wood and other materials. Quality of designs. Aesthetics. NAME. So much to consider, so little time."

I know, even though I got a little flack from the first reply or two. This is exactly what I wanted. Lots of opinions and this would be a grwat thread for other first time archtop shoppers.

Five pages of replies later, its deteriorated into chaos like most threads eventually do. Lol

[Spook410]

Every time I read one of these threads it reinforces the little voice in my head, that I hear every single day, that says "Why are you jacking around building archtops when you could just go to work for a cabinet shop knocking boxes together and actually get paid a decent wage? While also having customers that may actually appreciate what you do (They must because they will actually pay you for your time)." I have to take in repair to subsidize my guitar building habit. Maybe I should seek treatment.

So few of us have a passion for anything constructive. You are fortunate that you do. You would be a race horse pulling a plow making cabinets.

[SuperFour00]

>>> Every time I read one of these threads it reinforces the little voice in my head,

Indeed Jason. It is a tough choice to make unless you want to build a brand name in the Collings or PRS mold- which is also getting you away from actually building guitars.

Anyone who can build an archtop can also look at 2 to 3X the income applying the same skills and thinking in other fields. This does not make it a bad choice for many, but it does give one pause,...

I hope all is well.

Chris

You could as well say: "Anyone who can play Jazz guitar can also look at 2 to 3X the income applying the same skills and thinking in other genres." Many of the members hereabouts have that in common with artisans ... that they are willing to sacrifice financial achievements for artistic fulfillment.

[fep]

Would this be a good apple to apple comparison?

Gibson Citation vs. Heritage Golden Eagle

A new Golden Eagle is about $6,600. Not sure what a new Citation would cost, I'm guessing about $25,000.

Seems to me that the folks making the Golden Eagle could quite possible be those that use to make the Citation and are quite possible more experienced.

For anyone that has had their hands on both of these... How do these two compare?

Edit: FYI - I've never touched a Citation, I've played the Golden Eagle and it is my bucket list guitar.