Guitar price vs value

[Spook410]

Anyway... Some have mentioned leave the finer examples of the guitar maker's art to those discerning users who appreciate the craft, I say why not?

I would say the discerning user is the one that recognizes quality with his eyes and ears. Even when he doesn't recognize the brand.

[Patrick2]

[Patrick2}>>> [vs. Benedetto at] $30,000. Does anyone here actually believe that there are no luthiers here in the USA or abroad who couldn't make a very comparable guitar for 1/3 the cost and still realize a comfortable profit?


Hiya Patrick,

I know it is tangential to the overall thread, but in my estimate it would be tricky, to say the least, to make much if producing a Cremona for ten large as a solo USA luthier.

If we use technical discipline and call "wage" what you make for the work you do, and "profit" what you make for money you put at risk - then there is arguably no profit at all in a 10K Cremona.

You would have to live in Oklahoma (or Savannah, GA) to get some living and shop costs way down to even make the wage work.

I admire, or at least appreciate, the efforts of single luthiers who do such fine work for what amounts to remarkably low actual income.

All in my opinion. Surely there are luthiers who either are incredibly efficient or apply a different method to accounting.

Chris

I understand your point and I understand your basis calculations. However, there are indeed several luthiers building arch tops at $10K that can and do rival what Bob builds for $30K . . . and realizing a profit. Let's look at your analysis for a minute . . . especially as it relates to the comments on wage. What would you estimate that a Bob Benedetto, John Monteleone builder would value his wage at?

For the smaller individual luthier, the profit in a sale is the wage. For a guy like Benedetto, who has now gone into what amounts to a production facility, as opposed to a one man shop . . the term wage does apply. He indeed has to pay wages to his craftsmen. For the most part, Benedetto's shop is now basically the same type of a production facility as Heritage. (albeit on a smaller scale and far more organized and clean than Heritage . . lolol) Bob is capitalizing on the economies of scale, yet the products still reflect the price points of when Bob was building solo, himself. Those self perceived name/brand values are factored into the selling price of their guitars. What would estimate either of those two masters would value their brand/name worth at?

IMO, there's far more in the price tag of a $30K or $40K Benedetto . . . or even costlier ones from Monteleone, than a reasonable wage and a modest profit. And, each are without a doubt entitled to every dime their great products bring them. They built their brand worth to be what it is . . . and that brand worth carries over to a very high percentage of residual value in the resale of the instrument . . (except of course in the case of guy like Sierra Tango who will never sell their guitars) But, ST's joy of ownership makes it worth every dime he spent on his Cremona.

Michael Lewis is a true master, as is Mark Lacey, as is Mark Campellone, Comins . . . many others as well. You could buy an 18" arch top from any of them for far less than $30K. Probably more that $10K . . but far less than $30K.

I had an 18" and a 17" arch top built for me by a relatively obscure builder that I've spoken often of here. The 18" cost me $6,800 and the 17" $5,500 . . (if my shitty memory serves me well). I would put either of them up for comparison with Bob's best . . . or any other luthier's. A determination of which is better would require a huge amount of subjectivity.

[Spook410]

Here's a link to Bob's first 1978 18" Supreme:Benedetto Supreme 1

Also on that site are pictures of a recent 18" Cremona. At that level I guess 17" or 18" is up to the guy with the gold. During my 25 year quest I wanted a instrument built from late 80's through the Fender deal. One that he built in PA. Just my personal favorites.

There is a Benedetto Fratello for sale at Guitar Vista in Albuquerque. I believe it's from his Fender association. Played it for awhile last time I was there.

[kmaaj]

your confining the last example to laminate vs laminate right?

Absolutely, but do not discount the bridge, fingerboard, and the neck wood into the tonal outcome.

[Hammertone]

It would take a lot of convincing for me to trade this for a mere Benedetto:

[Patrick2]

Here's a like vs like inquiry for you:

top of the line Bendetto (30K) vs. Ken Parker archtop (30K).

Forget about price for a moment:

The former has absolutely no interest for me; the later, DEFINITELY Yes. if I can ever come up with the funds....probably never

One key difference is: Bob apparently no longer personally builds the guitars, anymore (caveat: a couple years ago, he personally built a custom carved guitar for my teacher and presented it as a gift, for the years of friendship between the two--file under, what a nice guy! But still, I think he's kicked himself upstairs in his company and lets the build be done by others).

Whereas, Ken Parker is a shop of ONE, and makes archies that no one else has even tried.

I not really sue one can just make an automatic assessmant that because a Ken Parker is hand building his instruments and Bob Benedetto has proteges building his . . that one would be better than the other. John D'Angelico stopped building guitars long before he died. Jimmy took over and surpassed (IMO) his master's results. So, who's to say that there isn't one or more people in Bob's shop with greater skills that his?

[fumblefingers]

Here's a link to Bob's first 1978 18" Supreme:Benedetto Supreme 1

Also on that site are pictures of a recent 18" Cremona. At that level I guess 17" or 18" is up to the guy with the gold. During my 25 year quest I wanted a instrument built from late 80's through the Fender deal. One that he built in PA. Just my personal favorites.

that guitar has a lower bout like Kim Kardashian.

[fumblefingers]

Hand made instruments today are overpriced.

Gibson J-45 costs over 2500$ today, and counting inflation, it cost around 650$ when it was introduced. Same story for every other Gibson.

Today's machinery and technology has advanced significantly since that era, production process got easier, and competition is simply larger than ever. Yet, even though market logic dictates prices should be dropping and dropping, they keep rising and rising.

I personally don't know heck about expensive instruments by the way, I'm only commenting on the observable fact that prices always increase which says to me that people don't really count money when they buy these things.

GAS is a fancy acronym for consumerism.

i'm not 100% certain i understand your point, sorry. are you saying that it cost $650 when it was introduced, and accounting for inflation it should list for less than $2,500? if so, what should it list for?

BTW - the Gibson round shoulder dreadnought was introduced during the great depression and the J-45 itself during the war. how do you know it wasn't under-priced? how do you know its not a better guitar and made better now? did they pay benefits to their employees then? did they pay for air conditioning then? how do you price a guitar?

[Patrick2]

Here's a link to Bob's first 1978 18" Supreme:Benedetto Supreme 1

Also on that site are pictures of a recent 18" Cremona. At that level I guess 17" or 18" is up to the guy with the gold. During my 25 year quest I wanted a instrument built from late 80's through the Fender deal. One that he built in PA. Just my personal favorites.

Both of those Cremonas are amazingly beautiful. For my own personal taste, I prefer the more recent one. Although, I'd like it a whole lot more without the burl wood accents.

[fumblefingers]

Both of those Cremonas are amazingly beautiful. For my own personal taste, I prefer the more recent one. Although, I'd like it a whole lot more without the burl wood accents.

you don't like the burl headstock? i think it makes the guitar. love it! of course it kind of limits guitar color choices. but natural looks good, and then there's natural, and maybe natural.

[Patrick2]

you don't like the burl headstock? i think it makes the guitar. love it! of course it kind of limits guitar color choices. but natural looks good, and then there's natural, and maybe natural.

I actually dislike all of the burl wood appointments. Might have worked better (for contrast) on one of his violin shadings. But, I really dislike it on a natural. Also, if he delivered that guitar to me, I'd be quite disappointed with the placement of the heel cap. The maple heel should have extended to the binding seam and the heel cap should be flush with the back. Here are a few examples on my 18" Unity and two Heritage arch tops. Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go and dust my guitars . . . (embarrassed . . . )

[fumblefingers]

how does one put a price on a one-of-a-kind work of art like this?

[Hammertone]

how does one put a price on a one-of-a-kind work of art like this?

I use a cardboard tag and a little piece of string wrapped around one of the tuning pegs.

[fumblefingers]

Sarcasm is always good when one lacks knowledge or skills, in this case valuation skills.

how's that dissertation on pricing theory comin' along ace?

[AKA]

Im new to archtops, and I've been searching for what I want. Ill probably get an Eastman Ar371 or Ar503 because under $1000 fits my budget, but during my search I've noticed drastic prices ranges. Is a $4800 ES175 really that much better than an Eastman manufactured in Asia? Is a $20,000 Benedetto that much better? I realize this is hard to quantify, but what are your opinions on this?

I look at the basic valuation of archtop guitars first from the perspective of whether the instrument meets the basic usefulness (commodity) for which it was produced. For most guitar players that translates to playability, durability, and maintainability. And, of course, the instrument must produce a pleasing sound that is characteristic of an archtop guitar.

So, in comparing the basic commodity of say an Eastman AR 371 archtop versus a Gibson ES 175, you probably won't see a substantial difference in the playability, durability, maintainability, or sound of the instruments.

However, once you begin to look beyond basic commodity, it is realistic to expect that with certain enhancements the instrument could be "better". The question really becomes "better for whom"? Do you need to, or simply want to pay a little more for pick-up, tuners, etc? That might separate an Eastman from a Gibson. Also, we expect the Gibson may cost more when new, but will also retain its value better.

In comparing production Gibson arch tops to ultra expensive hand built instruments by luthiers such as Benedetto, Monteleone, Gilchrist, etc., other factors, come into play which go beyond the basic commodity of the instrument. That is, they may be built to last longer, the playability may be more refined, select woods may be used, and maintenance may likely be performed by the very luthier who built it. The high-end instrument probably looks better than the production Eastman or Gibson because "special attention" was given to the design of the tailpiece, bridge, configuration of the f-holes, bracing, etc. in a conscious effort to set the instrument apart in looks and voice. Finally, there are many good luthiers, but only a select number who set themselves apart through innovation, art, or technology.

There is a reason that Benedetto and the high end builders "sign" each of their instruments. It attests to the pedigree of the instrument as part of the luthiers' efforts to perfect the crafting of archtop instruments; an effort that extends well beyond commodity. Consequently, pedigree brings a certain value which translates to higher cost. This has lead to "speculation" by investors which has driven up the cost of instruments by these "known" luthiers. (There are many other luthiers building outstanding instruments at a much more affordable cost.) Consequently, some people confuse pedigree (and cost) with performance. Simply, they expect the instrument to "sound" as much as it "costs".

So, with all that, unless you want to pay for pedigree, purchase a good Eastman, or a Gibson if you can, and be happy.

[matt.guitarteacher]

how does one put a price on a one-of-a-kind work of art like this?

Ok. I actually agree with you on this but...

This is just stinkin' funny:

I use a cardboard tag and a little piece of string wrapped around one of the tuning pegs.

Caught me completely off guard, being absorbed in those pics...

Best thing on the forum today IMO.

maybe you guys have some previous beef...

[Hammertone]

….Best thing on the forum today IMO...

Gee, thanks.
No beef, no agenda, no sarcasm.
Just a punchline.

Look, at the end of the day, people buy these guitars because they WANT them and they can AFFORD them. It's that simple. Some builders (large and small) understand this and do what they can to feed the need by tickling the "want" part and supplying the goods and services to satisfy that want. Sometimes they do a great job at it, sometimes not. No biggie. At the end of the day, there are plenty of guitars to go around for everyone. At the higher end, builders charge what the market will bear, which has nothing to do with their cost.

[Восток]

i'm not 100% certain i understand your point, sorry. are you saying that it cost $650 when it was introduced, and accounting for inflation it should list for less than $2,500? if so, what should it list for?

BTW - the Gibson round shoulder dreadnought was introduced during the great depression and the J-45 itself during the war. how do you know it wasn't under-priced? how do you know its not a better guitar and made better now? did they pay benefits to their employees then? did they pay for air conditioning then? how do you price a guitar?

What i certainly know is that it will be more expensive in 10 years.

[Doctor Jeff]

Just skimming some of the previous posts I can tell I missed quite a few interesting points, including price theory, case valuation skills and bonking.


Not to detract from the previous level of discourse, but here's my take on price and valuation. In 1981 I bought a new Gibson ES-175 for ~$850. (Accounting for inflation, that guitar should cost $2150 now, but for various reasons we all know the MSRP is considerably higher.) However, due to my lack of experience and training and the demands of work I got little value out of it, and ended up selling it for $450 in 1987, coincidentally when I got married.


In 2007, coincidentally when I got divorced, I bought a used Epiphone Joe Pass for $400. This turned out to be a great investment, as it got me back into jazz and into guitar playing in general. It played and felt and sounded better than the ES-175, likely because I knew more about guitar playing and especially guitar setup. I played the heck out of it for 7 years, and just traded it in for $350. (I know I could have gotten more in the private market, as I had upgraded the pickups and tuners, etc.)


Anyway my point is that value is in the eye of the owner. I own about 10 guitars of various types, some vintage, none too expensive, and I only keep them because I enjoy playing each of them quite a bit.


Ironically, the only guitar I have GASsed for recently is...hold your breath...a 1981 Gibson ES-175 I played in Minneapolis that just had that sound and playability that I am always striving for. It might even be the same guitar I used to own, for all I know. I didn't buy it though, as I had just bought 2 cheaper but highly playable guitars that bring me a lot of pleasure--a Godin 5th Avenue acoustic and a Peerless Sunset.


Maybe someday I'll get that ES-175. It occurs to me that much of what we all want and value is something that will make us feel 21 again. Who can set a price on that?

[iim7V7IM7]

Here a sampling of 30 US and Canadian archtop luthiers "published" website "base" pricing. Keep in mind that it is a rarity for a client not to order a guitar with "upgrades" and "options" as well. As you can see, there is a broad range of prices based upon a luthier's reputation/brand equity, the materials used, and level of customization/ornamentation that they are willing to implement.

Steve Anderson - $8,000 - $18,000
Mario Beauregard - *Not Published
Bob Benedetto - $10,000 - $30,000
Mark Blanchard - >$12,500
John Buscarino - $9,800 - $24,000
Mark Campellone - $4,800 - $12,800
Bill Comins - $8,500 - $12,500
Steve Grimes - $8,500 - $22,000
Saul Koll - $6,200 - $6,900
Denny Kopp - *Not Published
Mark Lacey - *Not Published
Bernie Lehmann - $4,800 -$7,500
Michael Lewis - $7,200 - $16,200
Linda Manzer - *Not Published
Stephen Marchione - *Not Published
Ted Megas - $6,075 - $9,300
Christian Mirabella - *Not Published
John Monteleone - *Not Published
Gary Mortoro - $6,500 - $18,000
Ken Parker - *Not Published
Tom Ribbecke - >$25,000
Erich Solomon -$6,249 - $12,500
Martin Tremblay - *Not Published
Bryant Trenier - *Not Published
Ryan Thorell - $8,500 - $11,000
Jim Triggs - $4,500 - $7,250
Dale Unger $5,950 - $16,000
Wyatt Wilkie - >$8,000
Gary Zimnicki - *Not Published

[SierraTango]

P2, I was never a huge fan of burl either, kind of reminded me of my Dad's old Jaguar's facia. However the tie in with the headstock, pickguard and tailpiece is very tastefully done. I apologize for the crummy pictures, but maybe you will get the idea.
I gigged last night with her, it's a duo with a excellent trumpet/flugel player. He was in Woody Herman's band and is just outstanding and a blast to perform with. Lots of Clifford Brown (his work on "Easy Living" sends a chill up my spine) Blue Mitchell (I'll Close My Eyes), etc. It's exciting and mega fun. We stay busy.
Being a horn player,In my experience most horn players could care less about what the guitarist is using. But the first time we performed and I used the Benedetto, even he looked over from the charts and said"...that's the sound of quailty, the sound you have been looking for all your life, right?"
Damn if he didn't nail it perfectly!

[fumblefingers]

Just skimming some of the previous posts I can tell I missed quite a few interesting points, including price theory, case valuation skills and bonking.


Not to detract from the previous level of discourse, but here's my take on price and valuation. In 1981 I bought a new Gibson ES-175 for ~$850. (Accounting for inflation, that guitar should cost $2150 now, but for various reasons we all know the MSRP is considerably higher.) However, due to my lack of experience and training and the demands of work I got little value out of it, and ended up selling it for $450 in 1987, coincidentally when I got married.


In 2007, coincidentally when I got divorced, I bought a used Epiphone Joe Pass for $400. This turned out to be a great investment, as it got me back into jazz and into guitar playing in general. It played and felt and sounded better than the ES-175, likely because I knew more about guitar playing and especially guitar setup. I played the heck out of it for 7 years, and just traded it in for $350. (I know I could have gotten more in the private market, as I had upgraded the pickups and tuners, etc.)


Anyway my point is that value is in the eye of the owner. I own about 10 guitars of various types, some vintage, none too expensive, and I only keep them because I enjoy playing each of them quite a bit.




Ironically, the only guitar I have GASsed for recently is...hold your breath...a 1981 Gibson ES-175 I played in Minneapolis that just had that sound and playability that I am always striving for. It might even be the same guitar I used to own, for all I know. I didn't buy it though, as I had just bought 2 cheaper but highly playable guitars that bring me a lot of pleasure--a Godin 5th Avenue acoustic and a Peerless Sunset.


Maybe someday I'll get that ES-175 (like the song goes, I'm gonna catch that horse if I can...). It occurs to me that much of what we all want and value is something that will make us feel 21 again. Who can set a price on that?

general inflation is NOT the sole measuring stick for price change for any good or service over time. it is a rough sanity check only.

[fumblefingers]

Here a sampling of 30 US and Canadian archtop luthiers "published" website "base" pricing. Keep in mind that it is a rarity for a client not to order a guitar with "upgrades" and "options" as well. As you can see, there is a broad range of prices based upon a luthier's reputation/brand equity, the materials used, and level of customization/ornamentation that they are willing to implement.

Steve Anderson - $8,000 - $18,000
Mario Beauregard - *Not Published
Bob Benedetto - $10,000 - $30,000
Mark Blanchard - >$12,500
John Buscarino - $9,800 - $24,000
Mark Campellone - $4,800 - $12,800
Bill Comins - $8,500 - $12,500
Steve Grimes - $8,500 - $22,000
Saul Koll - $6,200 - $6,900
Denny Kopp - *Not Published
Mark Lacey - *Not Published
Bernie Lehmann - $4,800 -$7,500
Michael Lewis - $7,200 - $16,200
Linda Manzer - *Not Published
Stephen Marchione - *Not Published
Ted Megas - $6,075 - $9,300
Christian Mirabella - *Not Published
John Monteleone - *Not Published
Gary Mortoro - $6,500 - $18,000
Ken Parker - *Not Published
Tom Ribbecke - >$25,000
Erich Solomon -$6,249 - $12,500
Martin Tremblay - *Not Published
Bryant Trenier - *Not Published
Ryan Thorell - $8,500 - $11,000
Jim Triggs - $4,500 - $7,250
Dale Unger $5,950 - $16,000
Wyatt Wilkie - >$8,000
Gary Zimnicki - *Not Published

correction. Benedetto starts at $5K for the Bravo.

[2bornot2bop]

No offense to the Benedetto or any other elite guitar builder, but the "sound of quality" is not in any guitar, it's in the hands and skill of a player....always. Reality check time....Now, back to your gear salivation exchange....

[iim7V7IM7]

I did not include laminate models for Benedetto nor a number of other luthiers. These are prices for carved topped instruments.