Gibson L-5 Compared to Other Gibson Archtop Guitars

[Greentone]

Wintermoon:

Yeah, I caught the scale-length error and edited it right away--within a minute of my first post. Good catch. Only the Johnny Smith had the odd-ball 25" scale. Boy, I sure wanted one of those early, single-pickup 350 guitars. RARE! One came up on eBay about a dozen years ago--underpriced, too. I was just too chicken-hearted to take the plunge. A '49, as I recall.

[2bornot2bop]

What I commonly observe, on this forum, it becomes obvious that there are those who are very closed minded when it comes to brand. And there are those who are more opened minded in regards to brand.

If I allowed my first Gibson archtop experience to influence my decision to sample a 2nd, as the first was the worst dud I'd ever experienced, I'd never have later acquired 5 other Gibsons.

Open mind - It is a choice...that's all 2b is saying.

[wintermoon]

Wintermoon:

Yeah, I caught the scale-length error and edited it right away--within a minute of my first post. Good catch. Only the Johnny Smith had the odd-ball 25" scale. Boy, I sure wanted one of those early, single-pickup 350 guitars. RARE! One came up on eBay about a dozen years ago--underpriced, too. I was just too chicken-hearted to take the plunge. A '49, as I recall.

I hear ya Greentone. if it was a single pickup it was either a '47 or '48, by '49 they were two pickups.

still have a single pickup '47 blondie that was played to death before I got it, and still might be the best playing guitar I own, though it doesn't get as much play time these days as the L-5's and Supers....

[Jabberwocky]

Wintermoon:

Yeah, I caught the scale-length error and edited it right away--within a minute of my first post. Good catch. Only the Johnny Smith had the odd-ball 25" scale. Boy, I sure wanted one of those early, single-pickup 350 guitars. RARE! One came up on eBay about a dozen years ago--underpriced, too. I was just too chicken-hearted to take the plunge. A '49, as I recall.

The early ES-350s also have carved spruce tops. At least, a few are found to have carved spruce tops.

[Jabberwocky]

What I commonly observe, on this forum, it becomes obvious that there are those who are very closed minded when it comes to brand. And there are those who are more opened minded in regards to brand.

If I allowed my first Gibson archtop experience to influence my decision to sample a 2nd, as the first was the worst dud I'd ever experienced, I'd never have later acquired 5 other Gibsons.

Open mind - It is a choice...that's all 2b is saying.

Some of us know what we like. Some of us know what we don't like. It is a reflection of our own personal taste and choice. As the Cockney saying goes, you pays your money, you takes your choice.

And what I don't like I usually won't recommend that someone go try it if someone were to ask me. Doesn't mean that I am right. Doesn't mean that I am wrong. Just making a choice that works for me.

A Heritage is a Heritage. It is not a half-priced Gibson. If someone were to say to me, Why buy a Gibson L-5CES because you could buy an Heritage Golden Eagle for half the price and get the same or better guitar, I will say the guy is lying because a Heritage is not a Gibson.

And that is the problem with Heritage apologists.as I see it. They are not happy with Heritage being Heritage. No, Heritage is Gibson as it used to be and at half the price. And that is when I call shenanigans on it.

You see this pop up in every thread with Gibson in it and WE are the fan boys. I don't see it with any other archtop marque but from Heritage. Stand on your own two feet. You don't have to pretend to be Gibson and you don't want to.

You won't see in Heritage threads guys going, you should have bought a Gibson. Mostly, those of us who own Gibsons congratulate these guys because they are fine archtops in their own right and someone may see value in Heritage where I don't.

I am not made of money and if I can get hold of an archtop that plays, sounds, looks and feels like an L-5CES at half the price I will be all over it like a cheap polyester suit. Sadly for my bank account, I have not.

The testament really lies in how long one hangs on to a guitar. I have yet to sell the Gibsons that I have bought. If they sucked hard I would have rid myself of them long ago.

[Greentone]

I didn't know that the earliest spruce tops on ES-350 guitars were carved. Hmm? I used to play one of the earliest ES-300 guitars that features a P90-type pickup, rather than the long pickup, or the bridge position pickup. It was a post-war, script inlay 300. It had a spruce top, but it was a laminate. Great guitar with a super tone and great neck. I always assumed that the earliest 350 was the _same_ guitar, but with the cutaway. Always learning.

[rpguitar]

I'd like to respond to Greentone's lovely brief treatise on Gibson archtop history - featuring the L5 - with a photo.

[GoergeBenson]

What I commonly observe, on this forum, it becomes obvious that there are those who are very closed minded when it comes to brand. And there are those who are more opened minded in regards to brand.

If I allowed my first Gibson archtop experience to influence my decision to sample a 2nd, as the first was the worst dud I'd ever experienced, I'd never have later acquired 5 other Gibsons.

Open mind - It is a choice...that's all 2b is saying.

I think its fair to say, we all have our favourite brands. Thats just human nature to pick a winner and in the case of guitars, its either which one you idolise the most and or which one you have had the best experience with.


My fav brand Ibanez and Greco became my 'idols' or 'favourites' because they earn't my respect. In fact lets just say Japanese manufacturing earned my respect. So I will happily go to any of their brands, Greco, tokai, Yamah, Ibanez, momose, Headway, Bacchus, Seventy seven, heck I don't even have to play the last 1 to know they will be quality instruments, regardless of whether they are right for me.

Thats something you can't buy RESPECT.

And when you lose respect for a company, it doesn't matter whether they have great examples, you still vote with what sits well with you personally, lets just call it your 'standards' or your 'values'.

If those have been trampled on or let down consistently enough, through your experiences with them, its no longer a question of keeping an open mind, its about demanding you are treated better and the best way to do that, is to vote with your money and to express the feelings you haver to others.

I would like to point out that I have mentioned no brands other than the ones I respect the 'most' because my intention is not to get into a fight but merely to point out why I think, keeping an open mind is not always the best way to describe it.

Its about values, standards, integrity and ones desire to fill their world with things they respect. Of course you can always win someone back and I always have an open mind in this regard.

:-)

[fumblefingers]

^ good and accurate post.

guys like the aforementiond Kessel and Ellis were deeply entrenched in the studios in the 60s, the bulk of their recorded output cut in the late 50s, so yes, Wes dominated the 60s as far as jazz guitar recordings go, w/Martino, Benson and Roberts bringing up the rear.

one tiny correction, the early 350's were the same scale length as an L-5, 25 1/2"

Roberts an important jazz player in line with Benson and Martino? First time I've heard that and I lived through those years. Roberts was known as the studio guy seems to me. Where are his great jazz records like Benson's?

[Danny W.]

I get Heritage isn't everyone's cup of tea. But 5 out of 5 with issues? I mean what years were those guitars, 1985-1990?

I mean c'mon folks....some of you are way over the top.

If anything, my comment was understated because I don't have much interest in doing a bunch of bashing. In fact, three of the guitars were from that period, but the other two were from the '90's. Here's the first of them:





This was the last:



Dismissing my comments because I'm a Gibson fan is just childish--I've not only been very critical of specific Gibsons and a certain Gibson period, at the time I was buying Heritage guitars I was actively searching for a serious Gibson alternative. Believe what you want, but I didn't spend a bunch of money on guitars back then so that thirty years later I could post bash notes about them. As for whether they have much improved since then, it doesn't matter to me because I'm not looking for guitars, but the last time I was at the NAMM show (2008) I kept one of their salesguys company for an hour while everyone else was out to lunch and he didn't show me anything I wanted to take home.

Wes was strongly associated with the L-5C with an added pickup.

I believe that Wes's custom guitars were actually L-5 CES models without the bridge PU and associated controls, just as they are today. Although people have been known to cut pickups into an L-5C, I doubt that Gibson would have. Gibson being Gibson, though, I could be wrong.

Danny W.

[Greentone]

I'd like to second the respect for Ibanez and Greco guitars. I also am a fan of the Matsumoku-built instruments that were sold under the Epiphone, Aria, Memphis, and Bradley names. The Japanese guitars reached a level of workmanship in the 1970s right at a time when U.S. guitar makers were experiencing QC headaches. It became a real toss up whether you wanted to buy an American or a Japanese archtop back then. Ultimately, it was a no brainer--you could buy second-hand Ibanez, Greco, and Aria archtop guitars of very high quality for less than the intrinsic value of the guitars. These made and make excellent guitars to play out with. My Matsumoku-built Super-V copy is a blast to play and sounds outstanding. If it gets a scratch--meh, not as big a deal as if it were one of my Gibsons.

I would never pass up an Ibanez 2460 as a playable option for somebody who keeps an L5CES at home. The Aria Pro II PE 175 (with internal sound post) is an exceptional jazz archtop for playing ES-175-tone guitar. Despite the pickup placement, the Ibanez JP-20 (Joe Pass) is an exceptionally well made jazz archtop.

[GoergeBenson]

I'd like to second the respect for Ibanez and Greco guitars. I also am a fan of the Matsumoku-built instruments that were sold under the Epiphone, Aria, Memphis, and Bradley names. The Japanese guitars reached a level of workmanship in the 1970s right at a time when U.S. guitar makers were experiencing QC headaches. It became a real toss up whether you wanted to buy an American or a Japanese archtop back then. Ultimately, it was a no brainer--you could buy second-hand Ibanez, Greco, and Aria archtop guitars of very high quality for less than the intrinsic value of the guitars. These made and make excellent guitars to play out with. My Matsumoku-built Super-V copy is a blast to play and sounds outstanding. If it gets a scratch--meh, not as big a deal as if it were one of my Gibsons.

I would never pass up an Ibanez 2460 as a playable option for somebody who keeps an L5CES at home. The Aria Pro II PE 175 (with internal sound post) is an exceptional jazz archtop for playing ES-175-tone guitar. Despite the pickup placement, the Ibanez JP-20 (Joe Pass) is an exceptionally well made jazz archtop.

Nice spot on the Aria PE 175 The Herb Ellis model, although personally I found them a little dull sounding on the top.

The model under though, the EA-650 which had a sound post. That post allowed for a really super thin maple top that had a far better woodier tone the any Es-175 I have played. Just a shame they had a habit of putting rather odd shaped headstocks on them.

[oldwoodak]

I bought a 1970 L-5 CES without having played it or any others. It has far exceeded my expectations on playablity and tone. Could I have gotten another brand with similar playability or tone? Probably, but I didn't want to experiment and I don't have access to play a lot of guitars. I have since picked up an ibanez gb-20 which has a brighter/stronger acoustic tone and a great electric tone, but the L-5 still rules the roost. I was able to play the ibanez before buying.

[wintermoon]

The early ES-350s also have carved spruce tops. At least, a few are found to have carved spruce tops.

I don't think so on the early full depth 350's Jab, never seen one and I pay attention to silly stuff like that.
but a few early 350t's [different guitar] had them

[wintermoon]

If anything, my comment was understated because I don't have much interest in doing a bunch of bashing. In fact, three of the guitars were from that period, but the other two were from the '90's. Here's the first of them:





This was the last:



Dismissing my comments because I'm a Gibson fan is just childish--I've not only been very critical of specific Gibsons and a certain Gibson period, at the time I was buying Heritage guitars I was actively searching for a serious Gibson alternative. Believe what you want, but I didn't spend a bunch of money on guitars back then so that thirty years later I could post bash notes about them. As for whether they have much improved since then, it doesn't matter to me because I'm not looking for guitars, but the last time I was at the NAMM show (2008) I kept one of their salesguys company for an hour while everyone else was out to lunch and he didn't show me anything I wanted to take home.



I believe that Wes's custom guitars were actually L-5 CES models without the bridge PU and associated controls, just as they are today. Although people have been known to cut pickups into an L-5C, I doubt that Gibson would have. Gibson being Gibson, though, I could be wrong.

Danny W.

Wes' 63 is an L-5C [the one in the fire that Gibson restored and was sold by Mandolin Brothers]

[Danny W.]

Wes' 63 is an L-5C [the one in the fire that Gibson restored and was sold by Mandolin Brothers]

Do you have a reference for that? Tom Van Hoose claims that the guitars Gibson made for Wes were one-pu CES models.

Danny W.

[Patrick2]

Do you have a reference for that? Tom Van Hoose claims that the guitars Gibson made for Wes were one-pu CES models.

Danny W.

WES MONTGOMERY GUITAR

[Danny W.]

Thanks Patrick. I find this part really interesting:


"The suggestion that the guitar may have started life as an acoutic L5c with fitted "Johnny Smith" style pickup raises the question whether Gibson took stock L5's and retrofitted the pickups or someone else fitted the pickups after delivery. Did the same person install the mother of pearl heart? It would be nice if someone could resolve these questions. Close inspection of photographs and the video evidence shows that that the decorative point on the end of the finger board appears to have been removed (flattened), possibly to facilitate the fitting of the JS Pickup."

Danny W.

[2bornot2bop]

edit - For the record. Heritage was not interjected into this Gibson thread by a Heritage owner. And the later suggestion, that if you reply to a Heritage naysayer, on a Gibson thread, you're labeled an "apologist" for even having a differing opinion than the one given speaks for itself doesn't it? Who's the real apologist here, on this thread?

So, any Heritage owner who advocates owning Heritage archtops, based upon personal experience with said guitars, not another's non ownership experience, is either "childish", "dismissive", or an "apologist." Or goodness gracious, "piling on Gibson."

Perception isn't reality. That's a trick of the mind, of which nothing passes unnoticed by the ego.

My only issue with naysayers is, own a minimum of a half dozen or so Heritage archtops, and we can talk. I've only owned 5 Gibson's, and still don't feel I have owned enough to have developed an opinion of them.

To develop opinions without ownership, is laughable. How would you know if black eye peas and rice are fabulous if you've never tried them? Duhhhhh....

[Phiberopttic]

3 days in and I've played the hell out of my L5. Hooray for guitars that sound great acoustically!!!

For me, guitars are like girlfriends, no two are the same. I would no sooner say that I only play Gibsons, than say I only date blondes.

errr... I married a blond and I just bought an L5... I'm contradicting myself a lot lately... Aargh, I'm turning into my father!!!!

[fumblefingers]

edit - For the record. Heritage was not interjected into this Gibson thread by a Heritage owner. And the later suggestion, that if you reply to a Heritage naysayer, on a Gibson thread, you're labeled an "apologist" for even having a differing opinion than the one given speaks for itself doesn't it? Who's the real apologist here, on this thread?

So, any Heritage owner who advocates owning Heritage archtops, based upon personal experience with said guitars, not another's non ownership experience, is either "childish", "dismissive", or an "apologist." Or goodness gracious, "piling on Gibson."

Perception isn't reality. That's a trick of the mind, of which nothing passes unnoticed by the ego.

My only issue with naysayers is, own a minimum of a half dozen or so Heritage archtops, and we can talk. I've only owned 5 Gibson's, and still don't feel I have owned enough to have developed an opinion of them.

To develop opinions without ownership, is laughable. How would you know if black eye peas and rice are fabulous if you've never tried them? Duhhhhh....

good point. i've owned 8 Gibson archtops and one solid body. i have an opinion. my opinion is that they're pretty darned good.

sadly, i've only owned only 1 Buscarino, 1 Benedetto, and 1 Ramirez. so far, my opinion is that they're pretty darned good too.

[Danny W.]

So, any Heritage owner who advocates owning Heritage archtops, based upon personal experience with said guitars, not another's non ownership experience, is either "childish", "dismissive", or an "apologist." Or goodness gracious, "piling on Gibson."

My only issue with naysayers is, own a minimum of a half dozen or so Heritage archtops, and we can talk. I've only owned 5 Gibson's, and still don't feel I have owned enough to have developed an opinion of them.

To develop opinions without ownership, is laughable. How would you know if black eye peas and rice are fabulous if you've never tried them? Duhhhhh....

And anyone who has had multiple negative experiences must be a "Gibson Fanatic"? I'm sure if I had owned six you would have made the minimum seven.

Danny W.

[fumblefingers]

good point Danny.

if a guitar costs more than $3K - $4K I don't think a customer needs to "study the problem" any further. at that price it needs to be a good customer experience. same with just about anything else.

[2bornot2bop]

And anyone who has had multiple negative experiences must be a "Gibson Fanatic"? I'm sure if I had owned six you would have made the minimum seven.

Danny W.

Okay, clearly it appears that the fanaticism remark was taken personally. It was not directed at you personally.

So, we're now into prediction about what others will or would do if...?

Okay, with that I'm out.

I'll simply reserve further comments by saying. Life, to me, means having the willingness to be open to all experiences.

I want to eat Borscht in Moscow, stomp grapes in Tuscany, dance the Tango in Buenos Aires, and cruise the Danube in Budapest. My cup is empty to experience it all, for life, is too short.

Closed minded people, I've no time for them. Why? Show me a closed minded individual and I'll show you an individual so full of his/her biases they've no room to allow anything or anyone, outside of those who agree with their biases, in.

[Jabberwocky]

3 days in and I've played the hell out of my L5. Hooray for guitars that sound great acoustically!!!

For me, guitars are like girlfriends, no two are the same. I would no sooner say that I only play Gibsons, than say I only date blondes.

errr... I married a blond and I just bought an L5... I'm contradicting myself a lot lately... Aargh, I'm turning into my father!!!!

You I like. You have just added a new page to the Annals of Shallow Gibson Owners. I wrote the foreword. Blondes and L5s...I bet you drive a Corvette too.

You won't be selling it on too soon, I hope. Playing the hell outta it is the whole point of owning an L5CES, wearing a grin on your face like the Cheshire Cat who got the cream.

HE who owns a whole harem of L5s will have a nice retirement fund when the day comes to take down the shingle which I hope won't be anytime soon.

Put a bunch of fine craftsmen to build a house without an architect and see the end result. That's Heritage for ya.