Jazz Guitar Speaker thread

**jzucker** · 04-14-2014, 10:00 AM

Just wanted to post some thoughts on jazz guitar speakers. In general, I'm not a big fan of the stamped speakers that are widely available for guitar. They tend to be designed to be used in arrays of 2-4 and even if a single speaker can take the volume (i.e. eminence tonker is rated for 150W) they tend to break up when playing loud and clean on a single speaker and this doesn't sound good for jazz.

These are my opinions of course. YMMV

Delta 12A - Great clean speaker. Extremely bright in an open back cab. Sounds great in a closed, ported cab such as the RE cab but in an open back is shrill. Not good for fusion/rock due the the excessive ice pick syndrome
EV 12L - Overall fantastic speaker, super heavy, ice-pick syndrome if you're in direct line of fire of the dome. Sounds amazing for clean or dirty but very directional.
EV Force 12 - Overall my favorite 12" speaker but it is heavy. I like it better than the 12L. A bit less directional. Doesn't sound as good for fusion and has a bit of a nasal quality to it which some do not like. Discontinued, unfortunately and have not heard a recone I was crazy about.
Warehouse ET90 - Dark, muddy, too much bottom, not enough top end. Did not like at all.
Eminence Tonker - Overall a decent speaker. Nothing jumps out at me to say this is a great speaker but sounds decent for clean and very good for overdrive/fusion. Very efficient.
Eminence Beta 10A - Good sounding speaker. Very even from low to high. A little dark sounding because it's top end is 3.8k. Not good for rock or fusion.

**Klatu** · 04-14-2014, 01:10 PM

I've got a 1x12 cab that should be arriving this week or next loaded with a new Eminence speaker supposedly modeled after an EV 12L. Once I get a hold of it, I'll post the model number and a review in this thread. Keep in mind that my experience with speakers is far more limited than many of the members on this forum who seem to have played though dozens of different speaker models.

Generally what I look for in a speaker is one that won't break up at higher volumes and keeps a clear bass without getting muddy. Many of the guitars I amplify are acoustic archtops with floating pickups that feedback rather quickly if the bass is at all flabby.

**jzucker** · 04-14-2014, 01:13 PM

i heard the demos Tomo did with that speaker and frankly I thought it sounded horrid! Very thick mids without the clear, transparent sound of a real 12L. Frankly, i'm not sure of the point of a 12L clone when you can get the real thing. If it was only $125 or if it had a neo magnet I could see it...just sayin...

**Klatu** · 04-14-2014, 01:25 PM

I certainly hope for better than what you're describing.

**jzucker** · 04-14-2014, 01:36 PM

Originally Posted by Klatu

I certainly hope for better than what you're describing.

did you listen to his clips? Maybe it was not a good combination. I assume he's using a dumble clone (already nasally) and the combination of them just sounded nasally on the clips.

What made you buy the emi instead of the real thing?

**Klatu** · 04-14-2014, 06:51 PM

I actually haven't bought it directly; rather, I purchased a 1x12 cab and told the builder that trusted his professional opinion concerning speakers. He recommended that particular one, so I told him to move forward.

**Engine Swap** · 04-14-2014, 08:38 PM

Interesting post.

I've been looking for a 12 inch speaker to mate with the Polytone project that I'm working on. I settled for a Cannibis Rex, figuring I could pop it in my Blackface DR if it doesn't work out. I post some impressions once I get everything put together.

**jzucker** · 04-14-2014, 08:43 PM

well @klatu, hopefully it sounds good. I guess it's half the cost of a 12L so that's something...

**Eddie Lang** · 04-14-2014, 09:08 PM

I haven't tried tons of speakers either, but I really like the Cannabis Rex in one of my amps. Nice, clean, fat but clear lows, great mids, well focused highs.

Jazz Guitar Speaker thread-amp_tkmjd_2-jpg

Jazz Guitar Speaker thread-amp_tkmjd_2-jpg

P.S. All the pups in my guitars are single coil and I have not tried it with humbuckers.

**Klatu** · 04-14-2014, 09:57 PM

I believe that speaker is only legal in Colorado and Washington.

**jads57** · 04-14-2014, 10:23 PM

It always seems to be a hit and miss proposition w/ speakers. I think it also depends on a lot of variables, closed back,open back, size of the cab,ported, non ported, choice of guitar,amplifier,etc. I will agree I generally lkied the EV 12L's overall but too directional and way too heavy to lug around. I have to disagree on WGS ET90 I really like this speaker in my Mesa/Boogie wide cab Nomad 1x12"combo the best, over Jensen Neo Tornado, Black Shadow/Celestion 90, and even the Jensen Blackbird Alnico 100 watt. It comes closest to the best attributes of all of those speakers.

**Woody Sound** · 04-14-2014, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Klatu

I believe that speaker is only legal in Colorado and Washington.

I heard that it makes notes really bloom...

**yebdox** · 04-15-2014, 12:19 AM

+1 on the EV12L/ Ceramic SRO. I also am digging a combo of a Celestion 12-65 and a Lead 80 in my Vintage Sound Twin (black faced early 70s Dual Showman head) - as long as I don't crank it above 4 or so, stays perfectly clean and warm.

Have a Delta 12A in an openbacked Deluxe - tend to agree with Jack, may have to switch it out into a close backed cab, but I don't think it's all THAT ice-picky.

But still…. not an EV. Close. But not.

I'm leaning towards closed back cabs in the future, just about done with combos. I don't mind the weight, but I've been fortunate to avoid serious back injuries. Have never tried the Neos.

Any experience with a Neo in a closed back cab? Jack?

**jzucker** · 04-15-2014, 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by jads57

It always seems to be a hit and miss proposition w/ speakers. I think it also depends on a lot of variables, closed back,open back, size of the cab,ported, non ported, choice of guitar,amplifier,etc. I will agree I generally lkied the EV 12L's overall but too directional and way too heavy to lug around. I have to disagree on WGS ET90 I really like this speaker in my Mesa/Boogie wide cab Nomad 1x12"combo the best, over Jensen Neo Tornado, Black Shadow/Celestion 90, and even the Jensen Blackbird Alnico 100 watt. It comes closest to the best attributes of all of those speakers.

disagree totally. Total mud speaker. no high frequencies and so much low end that my 175 was feeding back at bedroom volumes. Not so with any other speaker I've tried.

**Tom Karol** · 04-15-2014, 08:52 AM

Is anyone able to offer a comparison between the Beta 10A and the Delta 10A and the Deltalite 10A? Thanks!

**jzucker** · 04-15-2014, 08:55 AM

Originally Posted by yebdox

+1 on the EV12L/ Ceramic SRO. I also am digging a combo of a Celestion 12-65 and a Lead 80 in my Vintage Sound Twin (black faced early 70s Dual Showman head) - as long as I don't crank it above 4 or so, stays perfectly clean and warm.

The lead 80 is a muddy/nasally speaker IMO though it probably sounds good in a twin , especially with a strat and semi-dirty tones. As I said before, the stamped speakers tend to break up with speaker cone distortion. It's not necessarily the stamped design that encourages that but they just usually tend to be cheaper speakers. The Emi Delta 12A is stamped though and doesn't have that problem so it's kind of a broad generalization.

Have a Delta 12A in an openbacked Deluxe - tend to agree with Jack, may have to switch it out into a close backed cab, but I don't think it's all THAT ice-picky.

But still…. not an EV. Close. But not.

Not sure it's even close. The high freq in the Delta 12A sound fizzy with overdrive, not so with the 12L which has natural attenuation above about 4.5k.

I'm leaning towards closed back cabs in the future, just about done with combos. I don't mind the weight, but I've been fortunate to avoid serious back injuries. Have never tried the Neos.

Any experience with a Neo in a closed back cab? Jack?

Yes, many times but Neo is too broad a category to make too many generalizations. I can generally say that with the 7 or 8 NEO speakers I've tried for both bass and guitar, I didn't like any of them. They tended to be nasally and harsh sounding with a mid range spike that was fatiguing to my ears. I think the design of the neo speakers is still in their infancy in terms of figuring out how to make them work more naturally. The first designs seemed to be ceramic speakers with just the magnet swapped out but I think the whole speaker needs to be re-designed in order to get a more natural response. I haven't heard anything that turns me on so far.

**jzucker** · 04-15-2014, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by ingeneri

Jack,

What 10" speakers, besides Jensens, would you recommend as a replacement for getting that Fender-like high end?

On a more technical note, I'm a bit confused how some speakers can have extensive high frequencies listed in their specs but still be known for being overly dark or mid-rangey. Can one of the afficionados add some guidance on how this all works?

Haven't done a lot with 10" speakers. Which speakers are you talking about? The emi pro sound 10s are designed as woofers so they don't have a huge top end. That's what RE and AI are using and unfortunately it's missing high end IMO.

The difference in tone for fusion / rock with my tonker vs the Emi 10 in my RE cab and my AI Corus cab is pretty drastic. Huge difference.

I need to hook the open back cab up as an extension to the corus and see if I get the best of both worlds.

**hans halmackenreuter** · 04-15-2014, 09:00 AM

I think it always depends a little bit on the amp, if choosing a suitable speaker but I had a 2x10 cab loaded with Copperheads by Eminence and the really sounded great for jazz application.

Now I have a Cannabis Rex which seems to be a really good speaker, but I can imagine that this speaker is useless for most of solid state amps, because of the low W.

I just remeber that everytime I played other amps loaded with Celestion speaker, I was mostly unsatisfied with the tone. Although they weren't bad, and maybe good for other musical genres.

Another which I liked was the Delta Demon, which is a very even sounding speaker, but it doesn't have the high end - but if someone wants to get a cliché Jazz (polytone) sound out of a cheap solid state amp, this is a good way to go. For me it is a typical speaker which you want to mix with another speaker that has the highs.

Finaly I want to know if it would make sense to separate the list in tube-amp-speakers and solid-state-amp-speakers? I ask that because imho I imagine that most of the solid state which are used by jazzers nowadays seem to aim after a more flat response. Where else you have significant differences with tube amps e.g. like bf or tweeds and their different circuits.

**jads57** · 04-15-2014, 10:58 AM

I have 2 different Jensen Neos Neo 100-12 and a Tornado 100-12 in closed back cabs. The regular Neo 100 12 is in a Roland Cube 80 and the Tornado is in a Egnater Rebel 1x12 (small )closed back cab. Much improved bass response from open back cabs. I just purchased a second WGS ET90 from Jack Z and am going to put in a Qullter Aviator 1x12 open back combo to replace the stock Celestion Lead 80. It seems as though Jack is looking for a really flat eq type of speaker/cab that he can control exactly which frequencies his ear prefers. My suggestion is to get a Buscarino Chameleon cab or similar design. I tried one w/an AI head and it matched my freinds Comins, Gibson, and other high end archtops pefectly. These are quite expensive though.

**Chazmo** · 04-15-2014, 11:31 AM

Any suggestions for a replacement speaker for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe? The George Benson version comes with a Jensen C12K, but I'm open to others.

The stock speaker seems very flabby on the low end. There is still too much low end even when the bass eq knob is turned all the way off. I have been playing an ES 175 with Classic '57 pickup through it.

**jzucker** · 04-15-2014, 11:39 AM

You may want to get a circuit change to get that low end tightened up before you address the speaker.

**D.G.** · 04-15-2014, 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Chazmo

Any suggestions for a replacement speaker for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe? The George Benson version comes with a Jensen C12K, but I'm open to others.

The stock speaker seems very flabby on the low end. There is still too much low end even when the bass eq knob is turned all the way off. I have been playing an ES 175 with Classic '57 pickup through it.

Those HRD's have way too much bottom end for my tastes, so I don't know how much relief you'll get with a speaker swap, but I have experienced an appreciable "tightening" of the bass on a BF styled amp using an Eminence Wizard.

Speaker swaps are like russian roulette, more misses than hits...