Jazz Guitar Speaker thread

[jzucker]

Hi Bob,
try this "experiment", if you haven't done it yet. Plug a stratocaster or e Telecaster into your Evans
and try tweaking your tone knobs in order to get a sound suitable (according to your taste) for pop/rock/funky.
Maybe also try with an overdrive/distortion pedal in front. I'd like to know your impressions.

I've done this and to me if the speaker falls off sharply at 4k, the rock/overdrive tones suffer greatly. If I a/b between my raezer's edge cab with the Emi Beta 10 and the tonker in my other cab, there is a world of difference. I can get a nice, flat jazz guitar sound out of the emi but with the high freq rolloff, you can't get that lively benson tone out of it. You can with the tonker which is flat(ish) out to about 5k.

[DRS]

I've done this and to me if the speaker falls off sharply at 4k, the rock/overdrive tones suffer greatly. If I a/b between my raezer's edge cab with the Emi Beta 10 and the tonker in my other cab, there is a world of difference. I can get a nice, flat jazz guitar sound out of the emi but with the high freq rolloff, you can't get that lively benson tone out of it. You can with the tonker which is flat(ish) out to about 5k.

So - you recommend a Tonker for both straight ahead jazz and fusion? What about a Tonkerlite?

[jzucker]

So - you recommend a Tonker for both straight ahead jazz and fusion? What about a Tonkerlite?

No, i wouldn't go so far as to endorse it. I think it sounds a little "meh" but it could be just the SS amplifier. I think most SS amps just sound lifeless with an open back guitar cab.

[iim7V7IM7]

I will with a Strat (not soon though)

Hi Bob,
try this "experiment", if you haven't done it yet. Plug a stratocaster or e Telecaster into your Evans
and try tweaking your tone knobs in order to get a sound suitable (according to your taste) for pop/rock/funky.
Maybe also try with an overdrive/distortion pedal in front. I'd like to know your impressions.

[jads57]

Speakers have always been the hardest part to get right for my tastes. I love a big fat clean like an EV12L but then they tend to be a bit harsh w/ overdrive tones. I found for me 2x12" open back cabs work best, but at 57 I don't want to deal w/ the weight. I think it always comes down to a compromise unless your a rock star and have roadies. For me the compromise is a 1x12" open back combo using a WGS ET90 and if I have the energy, to bring a small 1x12" cab w/ Jensen Tornado (20lbs) Yes I know I'm being wimpy!

[iim7V7IM7]

A new tube amp that I have on order will either have an Emi Tonkerlite or a Jenson Jet Tornado when it comes. I will see how I like it...(tbd). If not, I have a ceramic that I can use (+ 6lb.).

[Danny W.]

Break-in is the most overrated/overhyped phenom in the industry. Seems to be some sort of internet folklore as far as I can tell. IMO, what really happens is your ear gets used to the way something sounds and your brain normalizes it.

You can see this this by switching to a different speaker for a month or two and coming back to it.

I did this recently when I got my quilter amp. When I first got the amp, it sounded mid-rangey and nasally to me. Played it for 3-4 weeks solid and grew to really dig the sound. Switched to my AI amp for a month. Came back to the quilter and low and behold, it sounded mid-rangey and nasally again.

What had happened was my ear had normalized the sound.

I ask the question...If a speaker changes so much, why does it always get better? Wouldn't the theories of chance dictate that it would change 50% of the time to sound worse? Same thing with guitars. It's funny how they always improve with age. They never change for the worst.

Soapbox over...

I'm in full agreement here. My first RE cab from Rich was a Twin-8 Tower. After I had been gigging with it for many months I bought another--on the day I received it I compared the two and heard no difference at all. A while after Rich died I bought a Stealth 10-ER from the new company and it sounded peaky and bass shy compared to my Rich-built S10-ER. I was told to break it in, so I hooked it to a full-range music source and let it play at high volumes whenever we were out of the house. Thirty days later it still sounded peaky and bass shy, just as on the day I first got it. Back it went. I also ran both with a spectrum analyzer, which showed no change over the break-in period, and clear differences between the two cabinets.

(IMO and YMMV...)

When I switch between my RE Stealth 10 and my open back cab with the tonker in it, it's like a blanket has been removed.

All my RE cabs are extended range, which I find makes them much more versatile.

Danny W.

[Engine Swap]

Question- what qualifies a speaker cab as "extended range"?

[marcwhy]

Question- what qualifies a speaker cab as "extended range"?

Answer: that usually refers to a speaker plus tweeter cabinet.

[iim7V7IM7]

I think what is considered "dark" may be far more complex than the frequency response of a speaker. If you for example compare the published frequency responses of the Emi Beta 10A vs. Tonker 12-8, you'll the following in the tonic and harmonic frequency domains:

Hz vs. dB

0080 - 91/95
0090 - 92/97
0100 - 93/98
0200 - 95/99
0300 - 95/98
0400 - 96/100
0500 - 93/100
0600 - 94/100
0700 - 92/100
0800 - 94/101
0900 - 94/101
1000 - 96/101

Both speakers have fairly flat responses in the tonic range but the Tonker is significantly more efficient. The amp settings to achieve similar volumes will be markedly different.

1500 - 99/95
2000 - 99/107
2500 - 102/107
3000 - 104/107
3500 - 99/104
4000 - 94/103
4500 - 95/101
5000 - 94/99
5500 - 85/97
6000 - 80/93

In the harmonic region, both speakers peak around 2,500-3,000 Hz and roll of dramatically >5,000 Hz (albeit more so with the Beta 10A). Again, the main difference is efficiency and off-axis performance which is not shown).

All this being said, once installed in a cabinet the installed performance will differ greatly. The 1w on-axis, anechoic plots go out the window once installed into a cabinet system. The Tonker being a larger driver will have better off-axis performance (the Beta 10 will decrease off-axis much faster than any 12" speaker). As I said earlier the Tonker is >2x as loud as the Beta 10A and your amp settings will be quite different to achieve similar sound pressure levels.

The differences in 1) speaker efficiency, 2) off-axis performance and 3) cabinet design may have more to do with some sonic perceptions than published on-axis, anechoic frequency response. The Beta 10A in my Evans semi-open cab sounds quite different than my RE Nighthawk ER cab.

My $.02

[jads57]

Wow some really specific analytical info in this thread! Some of you guys must not be the typical guitar players. If you were, you'd just say one word answers like "Sucks!" LOL!

[jzucker]

The tonker is 5k at 100db, the beta 10 is 5k at 94db, HUGE difference in high freq for guitar IMO. More than 2x load at that point.

That is what I hear and the specs corroborate that.

I tried another experiment this morning. I have a fender showman preamp that a friend of mine built for me. It's similar to the alembic F2/B but is in a small pedal size box. I rarely use it because it's a pain in the butt to plug another AC device in and find a place to put it, yada yada. I'd rather just plug my guitar straight into the amp.

However, this morning I plugged it into my mambo head and then into my 1x12 cab with the tonker in it.

VOILA - INSTANT FENDER tone. Bensony and methenyesque jazz tones with the ability to get fantastic overdrive tones (fusion) as well.

Plugged the mambo into the RE Stealth 10 with the beta 10 speaker and a completely different story. The subdued high freq response of the stealth did not give me the characteristic fender high frequency and more importantly, the fender feel. It sounded good but if I hadn't heard it through the other cab I would have thought, "meh...not worth the effort".

I think i'm going to bring the open back cab and the fender style preamp to my gig !

[iim7V7IM7]

Yes, but the same 6 dB difference exists throughout the tonic range as well. The delta you cite is more reflective of efficiency than frequency roll-off. Regarding your experiment, 1) how does the Tonker cab differ from the RE Cab: 2) Was the cabinet placement and your listening position identical?

The tonker is 5k at 100db, the beta 10 is 5k at 94db, HUGE difference in high freq for guitar IMO. More than 2x load at that point.

That is what I hear and the specs corroborate that.

I tried another experiment this morning. I have a fender showman preamp that a friend of mine built for me. It's similar to the alembic F2/B but is in a small pedal size box. I rarely use it because it's a pain in the butt to plug another AC device in and find a place to put it, yada yada. I'd rather just plug my guitar straight into the amp. I believe you in what you hear, I think that I don't buy-in to your proposed cause and effect. I think more is going on than that.

However, this morning I plugged it into my mambo head and then into my 1x12 cab with the tonker in it.

VOILA - INSTANT FENDER tone. Bensony and methenyesque jazz tones with the ability to get fantastic overdrive tones (fusion) as well.

Plugged the mambo into the RE Stealth 10 with the beta 10 speaker and a completely different story. The subdued high freq response of the stealth did not give me the characteristic fender high frequency and more importantly, the fender feel. It sounded good but if I hadn't heard it through the other cab I would have thought, "meh...not worth the effort".

I think i'm going to bring the open back cab and the fender style preamp to my gig !

[jzucker]

It's not just a straight line 6db less efficient across the board. The 2 speakers sound very different in my experience (not just limited to the current cabs I own)

And yes, cab placement and listening position was identical though in this particular case, the beta was in a ported, closed back cab so it's not apples, apples. But I have used the beta 10 in an open back cab and I feel that the dark nature of this speaker still is a factor compared to something like the tonker.

Yes, but the same 6 dB difference exists throughout the tonic range as well. The delta you cite is more reflective of efficiency than frequency roll-off. Regarding your experiment, 1) how does the Tonker cab differ from the RE Cab: 2) Was the cabinet placement and your listening position identical?

[iim7V7IM7]

I am not questioning what you hear (I believe you), but suggesting other factor likely influence perception beyond harmonic content in the 4-5 kHz region measured on-axis anechoically.


T

It's not just a straight line 6db less efficient across the board. The 2 speakers sound very different in my experience (not just limited to the current cabs I own)

And yes, cab placement and listening position was identical though in this particular case, the beta was in a ported, closed back cab so it's not apples, apples. But I have used the beta 10 in an open back cab and I feel that the dark nature of this speaker still is a factor compared to something like the tonker.

[jzucker]

I am not questioning what you hear (I believe you), but suggesting other factor likely influence perception beyond harmonic content in the 4-5 kHz region measured on-axis anechoically.


T

or it could actually be the harmonic content missing from the >2x frequency content above 3.8k!

[randyc]

A few years ago, I devised an empirical technique for evaluating speakers that I didn't possess. It is sort of complex and may be of questionable value BUT characterizing speaker performance in this manner may help narrow the selection process.

This technique does NOT account for enclosure characteristics unless the loudspeaker manufacturer has provided these characteristics. It should be a fairly good approximation of an open-back cabinet. (There is a way to include cabinet effect but it is lengthens the process ...)

Download the following:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/sutb3baaajypfzp/5jAs6MErWU

See Chapter 35

Cheers,
randyc

[boatheelmusic]

Any suggestions for a replacement speaker for a Fender Hot Rod Deluxe? The George Benson version comes with a Jensen C12K, but I'm open to others.

The stock speaker seems very flabby on the low end. There is still too much low end even when the bass eq knob is turned all the way off. I have been playing an ES 175 with Classic '57 pickup through it.

I replaced mine with an Eminence Cannabis Rex, and my ES 175 sounds wonderful through it.

I considered the C12K, but after extensive research........

[lapideusvir]

Has anyone tried the Eminence Deltalite II 2512? I read good things about it (fabulous cleans). It can eat 250W RMS. Seems to be a good ElectroVoice substitute, and it is only 2,3kg.

[Franz 1997]

I have. A good speaker, but nothing like an EV, IMO. Lacks punch, compared to the premium 12's of the 70s e.g. JBL, EV, Altec. I put my Altec 817 back very quickly. Quite subdued treble, no ''sparkle".

But, my opinion only- I'm not a fan of neos generally, so far.

[mattymel]

cool stuff…speakers…have to be the most economical and satisfying form of GAS.

a little background...I've been on a cheap amp kick lately. just bought 2 old peaveys in the last week (the old ones with the blue, grey and white colored knobs). a bandit 65 and a special 130.

started off just looking for something i wouldn't feel bad leaving in the trunk of my car after gigs. I'm a tube guy overall, but i guess i am getting lazy, as i hate dragging my '64 Deluxe (non verb-awesome jazz amp BTW) out of the trunk, and also wish i didn't have to plug in reverb pedals all the time...

but i have to say i have come to appreciate these old Peavey amps. they sound pretty good as far as SS amps go IMO. must admit i was inspired by seeing two Chicago cats (Bobby Broom) using a Special 130 and a Bandit 65 (Andy Brown…an old Cincinnati friend) a few times and thinking the PVs sounded pretty good. though both those guys could make anything sound good...

anyways, both amps cost me $125 and luckily happened to come with cool replacement speakers. the bandit had a Eminence Cannabis Rex, which i haven't had much of a chance to play with because the store i bought it from is fixing a weird EQ pot for me.

the Special 130 was a funny story. i drove an hour to meet this Craigslist seller and check out the amp. i get there and he literally pulls it out of a barn…cob webs, dusty as hell, not looking great.

i plug it in and I'm a little worried about some of pots and overall condition, and the cheesy looking speaker which didn't look stock. so i was very skeptical of paying the $125 we agreed on. i tried to low ball cuz this guy was obviously not a player at all, but he wouldn't budge. he knew i had driven an hour...he HAD me. so i bought it.

anyway, I'm driving home feeling a little like i may have just gotten "taken". get home and start researching the speaker. ends up its a EV Force 12. i immediately started feeling a little better about the deal. from the looks of it i figured it was a cheesy speaker somebody had thrown in just to sell the amp. still need to clean the amp up and maybe have a tech go over it. but I'm digging on the speaker and amp in general. should definitely serve its intended purpose.

and looking forward to getting back the Bandit and A/Bing the CR with the Force 12. I figure the speakers in these 2 amps pretty much covered what I paid for the amps. and i least now i have 2 new well regarded speakers to tweak around with if i want.

[mattymel]

just got the Bandit back from the shop today. sounds pretty good i must say. in fact, i think i prefer it the Special 130. a bit warmer overall. the Special has a bit more grittiness on the top.

also, i was mistaken. the Bandit actually has a Eminence Red White and Blues in it. my first impression is that it is a pretty dark sounding speaker. but that could be since the Bandit is half the watts as the Special and the Eminence is rated at 120 watts.

also, upon inspecting the Special 130, i noticed that the amp is marked as using 4ohms. But the Eminence Force 12 that is in there is marked at 8ohms. could this be affecting the tone at all?

may have to look into a 4ohm speaker for the Special…

[Tom Karol]

As most of you probably know by now, I have 2 Henriksen JazzAmps - a 110 with a Weber California speaker and a 112 with the stock Eminence Beta 12A.

The 110/Weber sounds really great for Jazz and Pop with my Godin Montreal Premiere with roundwound 11's, but just OK with my Eastman AR403ce with roundwound 12's for straight ahead Jazz.

On the other hand, the 112/Beta sounds dead solid perfect for straight ahead Jazz with my AR403, and good with the Montreal for Jazz at higher volumes that might cause the AR403 to feedback.

For rock, with a P90-equipped Tele with roundwound 10's, they both sound OK (EQ bass to treble: 9 O'clock, 9 O'Clock, 3 O'clock, 3 O'clock, 12 O'clock). In this context, I use the 110 for rehearsals, the 112 for casual gigs, and both together with a Carl Martin Quattro for serious gigs. The rig could use a bit more high-end sparkle, but it works.

I am very pleased with the speaker swap in the 110, and so I've often considered replacing the speaker in the 112 to increase its versatility. But I keep reaffirming that the 112 produces exactly the Jazz tone I want with the AR403. So, after going through repeated mental gyrations about replacing the Beta 12A with this or that, I've always ended up leaving it as is ... so far, anyway.

[Jazz_175]

....So, after going through repeated mental gyrations about replacing the Beta 12A with this or that, I've always ended up leaving it as is ... so far, anyway.

Tom, try the Jensen Tornado!

[Tom Karol]

Ha ha! No, I just played the AR403 with the 112/Beta right after my last post: Grand piano bass, fat juicy highs, and it can handle twice the amp's power - OK, the mid-range could be a bit more detailed - but I'm not changing the speaker ... for now!