F-Holes and Tailpiece Design

[feet]

Thanks for the input feet. I must say s-holes are the most strong possibility right now... sorry

i've seen it done well. i have faith.

This is just a personal pet peeve of mine but I hate tailpieces that show the ball ends of the strings, like with Peerless. Too bad because otherwise I really like some of their guitars... To me it's like having your underwear showing...

not that i wouldn't accept one, but in general, i hate this look, too. especially when i see it on high dollar instruments. from a purely aesthetic standpoint, it just looks bad. and even if/when it doesn't look bad, it never, ever looks better.

and for some reason, i thought you were dutch. its ok, portugal is cool, too. the only portuguese reference i have (brazilians aside) was the one girl i couldn't land. so again, booo!

[jorgemg1984]

From a design standpoint, purely for looks, I think it's a good idea to consider the tailpiece and the fingerrest or pickguard together, especially if they are both made of wood.

Not an issue, it won't have a pickguard - don't like them and don't need them

[jorgemg1984]

make sure you don't get the tailpiece that uses a string around the bridge pin. What a horrible design that is!!!

Jack I have no clue what tailpieces you're referring to... any images? Thanks!

[jorgemg1984]

i've seen it done well. i have faith.

not that i wouldn't accept one, but in general, i hate this look, too. especially when i see it on high dollar instruments. from a purely aesthetic standpoint, it just looks bad. and even if/when it doesn't look bad, it never, ever looks better.

and for some reason, i thought you were dutch. its ok, portugal is cool, too. the only portuguese reference i have (brazilians aside) was the one girl i couldn't land. so again, booo!

It's not yet made the decision... but it would make it look more modern and I kind of like that. I think that VB guitar looks great with that color, s-holes and no pickguard.

Dutch? Maybe in another life? I am fine you don't like my archtop decisions but I don't think I can be blamed for your lack of skills with the ladies...

[iim7V7IM7]

One thing to keep in mind, is that many tailpiece designs hide many of the design features that make them work. I suspect the development of these were iterative, empirical processes over dozens of instruments.

[jzucker]

Jack I have no clue what tailpieces you're referring to... any images? Thanks!

the benedetto style. The problem is that it relies on string tension to stay "even" so if you do drop tuning and/or while tuning and/or changing strings it shifts. Plus it puts undo stress on the endpin.

I know he's a master and I'm nothing but it was a stupid design IMO. BUT many tailpieces copy this design unfortunately.

[PTChristopher2]

The tailpiece design in question uses a Sacconi loop. This comes from the tailpiece attachment on classical stringed instruments - traditionally made from gut.

It works fine, but does require a bit of hand coordination especially compared to some solid hunk of metal like on an L5 tailpiece - which also works.

And since free whining is in the air these days: The only thing uglier than a D'Aquisto block tailpiece like on the Peerless is the same thing with D'Addario colored ball ends. I think there is another manufacturer with this color ball absurdity as well.

Non-US drivers come here and get a good laugh out of the "Objects in mirror are closer than they appear" admonishment for the idiotic. I suppose if we can drive without feeling like morons, we can use D'Addario silly balls too.

Anyway, it's a Sacconi loop. Like Jason mentions, I would really avoid the fulcrum if you have such a tailpiece in your design. The fulcrum is unnecessary, and while I think it would have no effect on sound at all, it is an odd way to do the job in my opinion - and of course digs into the top to some extent.

Chris

[jzucker]

the benedetto style. The problem is that it relies on string tension to stay "even" so if you do drop tuning and/or while tuning and/or changing strings it shifts. Plus it puts undo stress on the endpin.

I know he's a master and I'm nothing but it was a stupid design IMO. BUT many tailpieces copy this design unfortunately.

notice on this particular example, the cord dug into the top and the binding had to be replaced! 'nuff said.

[feet]

It's not yet made the decision... but it would make it look more modern and I kind of like that. I think that VB guitar looks great with that color, s-holes and no pickguard.

Dutch? Maybe in another life? I am fine you don't like my archtop decisions but I don't think I can be blamed for your lack of skills with the ladies...

i've seen the "s" holes work. but i've seen them go really badly, too. in general, not my thing, but it doesn't have to be a travesty. i trust you'll go with something that works well.

i blame her for not being dumber or drunker. her loss. not taking responsibility for your actions (or failings) is one of my more american qualities. its worth noting that had she been dutch, it probably would have been a different story. fun country. good cheese.

[IbanezAS100]

It's not yet made the decision... but it would make it look more modern and I kind of like that. I think that VB guitar looks great with that color, s-holes and no pickguard.

That sounds like a great spec. S-holes look very nice with that violin/cello brown finish. Is this close to what you have in mind (just to help with visualising)? It's the Gerard Defurne Classique model.

The Koentopp Amati is similar as well (no cutaway but similar finish, no pickguard, black pickup)

I also like smaller headstocks, here's a really nice design by Erich Solomon:

[jorgemg1984]

the benedetto style. The problem is that it relies on string tension to stay "even" so if you do drop tuning and/or while tuning and/or changing strings it shifts. Plus it puts undo stress on the endpin.

I know he's a master and I'm nothing but it was a stupid design IMO. BUT many tailpieces copy this design unfortunately.

I have a Benedetto tailpiece on my X-500. I don't drop tune, ever. Never shifted while tuning... I change my strings two by two (which is always a good idea), so no shift when changing strings too. I will probably go again with this type of tailpiece but with a different design.

[jorgemg1984]

i've seen the "s" holes work. but i've seen them go really badly, too. in general, not my thing, but it doesn't have to be a travesty. i trust you'll go with something that works well.

i blame her for not being dumber or drunker. her loss. not taking responsibility for your actions (or failings) is one of my more american qualities. its worth noting that had she been dutch, it probably would have been a different story. fun country. good cheese.

Be careful with karma or you'll end up with a Portuguese woman

[kenbennett]

What Ken? You don't think that the Peerless above shows continuity and harmony between the tailpiece and PG?

Har-har. Nothing against Peerless and their superb guitars - just certain that Jorge and his guy will design something more coordinated in material, shape, and trim.

Well, it did get me thinking.

By the way, that Peerless guitar looks great to me, except for the tailpiece.

One thing I don't understand is the huge mass down at the bottom end. Wooden tailpieces were originally designed after violin style. Benedetto tailpieces don't have that huge mass down at the bottom. A lot of others don't. But many of them do. If it's structural, couldn't somebody make it look better, more delicate?

[IbanezAS100]

Thanks a lot for all the info. The Koentopp is exactly what I want (but with a cutaway). The Gerard looked great too but I don't like shiny finishes (and my luthier doesn't do them anyway).

Nice one Jorge, I'm sure it's gonna be a cracking guitar. The wood combo is more common for flat tops, did your luthier suggest it?

Then again there was a Gibson L5 with koa back and sides/cedar top:



http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guita...dar-top/h65659

[jasonc]

Well, it did get me thinking.

By the way, that Peerless guitar looks great to me, except for the tailpiece.

One thing I don't understand is the huge mass down at the bottom end. Wooden tailpieces were originally designed after violin style. Benedetto tailpieces don't have that huge mass down at the bottom. A lot of others don't. But many of them do. If it's structural, couldn't somebody make it look better, more delicate?

I think (on that Peerless at least) it's chunky right there because the hinge comes up from the sides and the tailpiece comes over it and there needs to be enough wood to cover it all up. That's the way it looks to me anyway. I agree that there are more elegant solutions.

[IbanezAS100]

Just for fun, here's another no pickguard, violin finish archtop by forum member Dave Stewart

[jorgemg1984]

Nice one Jorge, I'm sure it's gonna be a cracking guitar. The wood combo is more common for flat tops, did your luthier suggest it?

Then again there was a Gibson L5 with koa back and sides/cedar top:



http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guita...dar-top/h65659

I have to ask him again exactly which woods are going where... I know he says the Koa he has his amazing - I believe Bernstein's Zeidler has Koa too? Anyway I trust him 100%!

[PTChristopher2]

>>> here's another no pickguard, violin finish archtop by forum member Dave Stewart

Oh #u(&ing great. Between Jason's Aureate and Dave Stewart's work you can give anyone else who claims any hand-to-eye coordination an inferiority complex.

Great pic of Dave's superb work. I'll even bet the evil tailpiece has not slipped while we look at the pic.

As Jason mentions, the Benedetto "fulcrum" is a piece of ebony under the tailpiece that contacts (maybe more like "impacts") the top somewhat inboard of the edge.

So the gut (a steel cable in many cases) contacts the edge with an ebony or bone reinforcement (still chuckling over the binding "replacement" conspiracy theory), but the tailpiece then pivots on the wooden fulcrum contacting the top inboard of the gut.

I do not understand why Benedetto uses this vs. just extending the reinforcement above the front edge a little. Although, I can imagine with some top-carve shapes, the Benedetto style tailpiece would leave the string ball-ends in contact with the top if the fulcrum did not let you cheat the resting angle of the tailpiece somewhat. I assume he had very good reasons for the fulcrum design.

Wow, Dave's guitar looks great. Love the very stylized large squared off parts on the inside of each end of the f-holes. Took some nerve to do and really works in my opinion.

Chris

[Hammertone]

It's a nice tip o' the Hatlo hat to pre-war Epi soundholes, but I miss the notches?

[jasonc]

It's a very traditional cello/violin type F-hole with no notches....which is what the Epiphone and Gretsch F-holes were patterned after.

[Woody Sound]

notice on this particular example, the cord dug into the top and the binding had to be replaced! 'nuff said.

Well if that *is* a binding replacement, then it wasn't built correctly from the beginning. There should be a separate short bone/ebony/whatever strip under the loop, either over the binding or in place of it.

But I agree, they are impractical compared to a solid or hinged joint.

[jorgemg1984]

Some small updates:

1) Woods will be koa (back and sides), spruce (top) and one piece brazilian cedar (neck). The only "doubt" is the top which could be koa too... any ideas?

2) I am leaning towards this kind of look

http://media-cache-ec0.pinimg.com/23...e2a8a7794a.jpg

Minus pickuguard... headstock and tailpiece will be completely custom. It will have his logo and my signature in the back (it will be my signature model).Tailpiece will probably be a fixed brass one but covered in ebony.

3) Pickup will be a full humbucker. I just did a mod to my two current archtops and I have solderless pickup systems connected directly to an 1M pot and then to the jack... sounds great!! (thanks PTChris). So I will have a Stormy Monday and a Manhattan (BK pickups) that I can change between my Guild and this new one with the solderless system - and have a PAF and a P90 sound.

That's it

[AlainJazz]

I love the look of that guitar! You are a lucky man.

[disco~juice]

Koa, really?
My first time hearing that wood in an archtop.
Without being an expert or something, I think you should stick with the spruce top.

[jorgemg1984]

Koa back and sides is a certainty... my luthier highly praises this specific wood he has, he says it's rare, old and dry and it's perfect. He suggested spruce top, I was just wondering other possibilities for the top.

I believe Bernstein's Zeidler has Koa wood...

PTChris were are you?