Gibson using richlite instead of ebony ...

**Jim Soloway** · 02-13-2014, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

The stone age did not end because they ran out of stones.

No, but large forests have disappeared because we burned them down to make charcoal and pasture space.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-13-2014, 06:16 PM

Indeed Jim. Also we got rid of trees that produce wood (and provide an environment in which species have evolved) so that we can plant trees that produce palm oil.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-13-2014, 06:17 PM

>> I guess I'm inclined to think that there is more to wood aging than simply removing moisture content.

I think I will give up on this one. Thanks for the discourse.

**Jim Soloway** · 02-13-2014, 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by PTChristopher2

Indeed Jim. Also we got rid of trees that produce wood (and provide an environment in which species have evolved) so that we can plant trees that produce palm oil.

I think you can just add and "etc." to that. It's also amazing how quickly the supply status can change when one or two factors suddenly shift. Madagascar being a perfect example. The interior of BC while not a tone wood example, is changing just as quickly.

**PTChristopher2** · 02-13-2014, 06:42 PM

I suppose to some this becomes a political area of discussion. But I think it is pretty easy to see that my comment (wisecrack, more like) about the stone age completely misses this aspect of the situation.

While I think we are not likely to luthiate anything to extinction, guitars are part of the whole question of what many see as injudicious consumption.

I was 17 when I built my first guitar, and in complete ignorance I made the nut out of ivory, which was still available then (~1975, Gurian sold it as nut and saddle blanks). Bugs me to think about it.

Chris

**PTChristopher2** · 02-13-2014, 08:18 PM

Hey, Ebonol,...

I was a warranty repair guy for Kramer Guitars. I almost think they actually called it Ebonol or something like that.

This was a 100% resin FB , with no fibers involved as I recall. Played just fine, although I can imagine a really sweaty-fingered player thinking it would get a bit slick when wet.

I have no memory of pulling frets from one. So either it never came up, was no big deal, or I have suppressed the horror.

Chris

**2bornot2bop** · 02-13-2014, 08:46 PM

Richlite - Now U've just another valid reason to buy a used guitar. But that could apply to ANY guitar. Can U say depreciation?

**GNAPPI** · 02-13-2014, 09:27 PM

Originally Posted by Patrick2

,

When it comes to arch top guitars, (which is pretty much the only type guitars I've cared about for the past 2 years)virtually everything has much to do with sound. As it relates to finger board materials affecting tone . . I remember over at HOC, Kuz would always go to war . . fight to the death . . in his belief that he could easily hear the difference between a rosewood board and an ebony one. Of course, he also claimed to have dog like hearing . . lolol. But, I'm with Kuz and Jack on this one. I do believe the finger board material has a direct impact on tonality. However, much toi the same effect, one piece of ebony will more than likely sound different that another piece of ebony . . . just like spruce tops will differ in molecular structure and therefore differ in tone as well.

I've played a bunch of identical 175's, 335's, strats, LP customs side by side that sounded different not necessarily "bad" (OK some were bad) but different.

So I might amend that to say "maybe something to do with sound" but I've had Ebony FB guitars I no longer have, and rosewood, maple (even richlite) that I do still have... go figure. YMMV :-)

**Scot Tremblay** · 02-14-2014, 02:00 AM

Just for interest sake, I thought I'd post a photo of the kind of damage too commonly seen on classical and (less commonly) flat top guitars caused in large part by the instability of ebony. To be fair, there is a "design flaw" ( my opinion) in the traditional Spanish heel which does exacerbate the problem but these cracks (there is a sister crack on the other side of the fingerboard) can almost always be traced to movement of the ebony fingerboard. This kind of damage is much less common in guitars equipped with a rosewood fingerboard, especially Indian rosewood.

Not to worry, I doubt one will ever see this in an archtop or solid body guitar. These designs are quite different from the classical or acoustic/flat top, generally with little to no contact between the fingerboard and soundboard so there's really no chance the ebony can wreak havoc.

This poor fellow just opened the case to his new, just delivered, yet to be played, hand made Spanish instrument and found this...as I said it's not uncommon, unfortunately.

Anyways, I thought maybe a photo would go some distance in helping to understand my somewhat less than high praise for ebony fingerboards....I've seen and repaired too much of this

Gibson using richlite instead of ebony ...-ebony-caused-crack-jpg

**jzucker** · 02-14-2014, 08:06 AM

photo's too underexposed for me to see anything.

wait, are you talking about the crack in the spruce? How was that ebony's fault?

**PTChristopher2** · 02-14-2014, 09:26 AM

Nice pic.

Hey, I have an in-progress nylon string with a Spanish block. In understand your view on the design.

Now you make me think to run a thin cross grain piece under the top in this area. It would be easy enough to do, have no sound effect, and likely tame the effect of the shrink and swell of the ebony FB.

Thanks.

Chris

**Jim Soloway** · 02-14-2014, 10:43 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

photo's too underexposed for me to see anything.

wait, are you talking about the crack in the spruce? How was that ebony's fault?

I believe that he's suggesting that the ebony contracts causing the neck to shift and the resulting torque on the neck joint causes the spruce (which is very thin) to crack.

**jzucker** · 02-14-2014, 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Jim Soloway

I believe that he's suggesting that the ebony contracts causing the neck to shift and the resulting torque on the neck joint causes the spruce (which is very thin) to crack.

I had that happen on a classical guitar I had which had a (dyed black) maple fingerboard.

I still say that this type of "evidence" is circumstantial at best. Maybe we need a guitar CSI team?

**Jim Soloway** · 02-14-2014, 11:12 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

I had that happen on a classical guitar I had which had a (dyed black) maple fingerboard.

I still say that this type of "evidence" is circumstantial at best. Maybe we need a guitar CSI team?

Could be. What I know about classicals could probably fit in a fairly small thimble so I'll leave the investigations to someone else but I'm not a fan of ebony for my own reasons and I would much rather have rosewood or even maple.

**oldane** · 02-14-2014, 11:13 AM

Originally Posted by jzucker

.... are you talking about the crack in the spruce? How was that ebony's fault?

When the ebony swells and shrinks with fluctuations in humidity - at a different rate than the spruce it's glued to - the risk of cracks are imminent. The risk is lower (though not non existing) with other woods which move around less. Rosewood and maple move around less than ebony. But of course it not the ebony alone. The spruce of the top also moves around with humidity fluctuations, so it's the resultant forces of the movements in the two woods which creates the cracks.