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I did a forum search on this and although the subject has been broached in other threads, I thought it would be interesting to dedicate a new thread to it.
More and more contemporary jazz players are stringing up their arch-tops with round-wound strings. For example; Julian Lage, Gilad Hekselman, Jonathan Kreisberg, Kurt Rosenwinkel, etc.
These are all players who are making the kind sounds that one might associate with flat-wound strings.
I also notice that valve amps are coming back into popular use in the jazz world; particularly Fender BF amps such as the Twin Reverb or Deluxe Reverb.
Perhaps this, along with the use of overdrive pedals could have to do with the use of rounds. To my ears, round-wound strings have a greater dynamic range which compliments the natural compression of a valve amp.
In another thread, it was suggested that a lot of the modern guys are coming from rock and pop, in which round wound strings are the norm, so they are using what feels and sounds familiar to them.
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11-26-2013 07:35 PM
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I don't think much about it really. Folks should use the strings and amps they enjoy using. I think that's the "why" right there. I'm not sure they're "switching back" either.
Generally, I always thought the "Flatwounds thru a solid state amp" was a stereotype of a rather small jazz population. And that's coming from a guy who uses Flatwounds and solid state amps!Last edited by mr. beaumont; 11-26-2013 at 07:48 PM.
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I don't know about "modern" guys coming from rock and pop... If we think of the time they would have come from that, let's say the teen years, that means:
Guys 30 years old today were into rock in 2000
Guys 40 today were into rock in 1990
50...1980
60...1970
My point is that rock is also kinda old, and also a passé influence.
It's more that flats are a pretty traditional, old sound and feel, much loved for sure... But not everybody's baseline. I think many notable younger players want to define their own sound, whether that includes "old" sounds or new ones, or a mish mash of influences that speaks to them.
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good point.
Originally Posted by rpguitar
btw, sometimes languages can be very close. "mish mash" (english) = "Mischmasch" (german)
funny
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Flats sound kind of dull for that kind of sound I guess... all those players have an "alive" sound. I associate flats with a more smooth dark sound... But it's a trademark of this generation, no doubt. I "hate" flats these days actually.
I am not so sure BF amps are coming back... most of those guys modded theirs and tend to have a much less mid scooped sound and so much closer to a Polytone.
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They just sound more responsive. And that's important.
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Lol...All the problems those cats had in the 50 ' s and 6 ' s with their less responsive guitars.
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I agree with OP about rounds and overdrive pedals - can't use a RAT with flats (not that I'd want to!) + lots of modern guys use hammer-ons and pull-offs which suit rounds way better. Flats are really only good for a clean tone, with mostly picking every note. Speed wise, I find rounds require less effort to play fast, but I still love flats for that particular tone and vibe they get.
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Silliness.
Two vids, same tele, .12 gauge flats.
Nobody's handcuffed to a dark sound because they dig flats. People use the tone they want, regardless of strings.
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Flat .12s on a Tele. Ouch. No pedal steel bends for you.
Sounds great though, really authentic. It makes sense, I guess Luther Perkins would have recorded those songs on a Telecaster with big, fat strings and a wound third.
Some great responses so far.
I also think it might have to do with sustain, I think a lot of these 21st century guys are leaning towards a softer, less percussive sound more akin to the playing of Jim Hall than the fast rhythmic style of say, Wes.
Certainly, better amplification has a lot to do with this but we've also seen a rise in the use of compression units and volume pedals since the '80s. I think round wound strings are just another way of achieving that harmonically rich, sustained sound.
Fascinating stuff, anyway.
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Maybe, but you can't deny that an artist will choose their gear and set-up based on their technique and the sounds they are trying to achieve. It works both ways; sound and method inform each other. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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Flats to me are dull and lifeless. It works on some guitars but most guitars just sounding way too dark for me.
Another problem is the balance between the wound strings and the plain strings. On most flat-sets I've tried the plain strings are way too bright compared to the dark flatwounds.
Having said that, they have their sound which you can only get with flats.
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Overall, I think it is less about dark vs. bright (which one can dial in via amp and guitar tone controls to suit their taste) and more about some additional edge in the tone, maybe just a bit more bite at times, which is neither good nor bad. There are many variables and it's just about finding the mix that works for you. After a year of having my Mambo amp perpetually on the "dark" setting and using flats, I'm now on the "middle" setting even though I switched to rounds at the same time - you'd think my tone would get way brighter with the double-whammy switch, but it hasn't.
Maybe the modern guys are just trying to establish their "own" sound, trying to be unique. Rock guys wear silly outfits to stand out - jazzers use different strings maybe?
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To address the OP's question about the use of Fender amps. Most jazz guitarists will use rental backline provided by the venue. Twin Reverbs, Deluxe Reverbs etc give a good clean tone, are widely available and a safe choice to specify on a rider.
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At the risk of suggesting the obvious, maybe it's just because there are a lot more options in round wound strings and good strings don't cost $30 a set.
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Lots of them use eq pedals to dial more mids / less treble to and hence avoid the typical blackface sound. Originally Posted by David B
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I like/use both flat wound and round wound strings , clean ss and brown valve tones, silky smooth "no sqeaking" chord melody and bright sustaining single line runs, it is great having choices that can accommodate my many moods and preferences!
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The original question is based on a false premise. One can find jazz guitarists on record, in clubs, and online who like all tones and play with all kinds of gear including round, flat, and hybrid strings. There is no mass "switching" happening among jazz players as the subject of this thread implies.
There's just a lot more variety out there... And it makes sense that there would be. This is not 1950 and the resources available to everyone are an order of magnitude more plentiful and diverse than back in the classic era of jazz.
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Sure Roger... but still, most famous post 90 players use rounds
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If you're referring to 90 years or older, I think those cats use flats. Originally Posted by jorgemg1984
Sure Roger... but still, most famous post 90 players use rounds
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Of course we are joking now, but if you're that old you grew up with monster gauge bronze ROUND wound strings! What's old is new again.
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Well, this is a jazz forum, so no pedal steel bends on my jazz tele. I have another tele for that. Originally Posted by Suttykins
I use flat 12s on my Tele because I do a lot of sliding into notes and chords and I don't like finger noise. I find that TI Swings are a lot brighter and clearer than D'Addario Chromes. They are a very balanced string. TI Swings also last a long time so the price is offset by this.
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Pardon the sidetrack, but "mish mash" (usually spelled mishmosh or mish mosh) is actually a Yiddish word that has worked its way into English usage, hence the similarity to the German "mischmasch." Originally Posted by hans halmackenreuter
good point.
btw, sometimes languages can be very close. "mish mash" (english) = "Mischmasch" (german)
funny
John.
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I was always taught 'Miss Match' at school, damn you Englisch Larngauge........ Originally Posted by John A.
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The main thing I've discovered, re: flat vs round, is that if I have a guitar with a wooden saddle (SADDLE, not bridge), the brilliance of the roundwounds balances that nicely, keeps you from going into "George Benson" territory (not that there's anything wrong with that).
I also play rounds on all my electrics, just because I always have, and because I like overdrive (especially from the amp) and find roundwounds respond better to that, or sound better to me, than flats.
But really, this is all just personal preference, of course.
I just found out one of my favorite players, Jim Campilongo, uses 9s. I was shocked. Neither his tone or his technique would make me think that.... just goes to show you... it's not the gear. (well, it IS the gear at least somewhat, but the gear does not the player make).
The only guitar I have 9s on is my floyd rose-equipped Charvel from the 80s. Actually, I think I HAD to go up to 10s, because I can no longer play 9s. (I play 10s,11s,12s, depending on the guitar)
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