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Just curious. I've played guitar on and off for years in various styles (fairly new to jazz at least on guitar) and besides my first few months playing I never used the tone knobs on either the guitar or amp. I may not have always loved the sound, but what really matters to me is that it's "pure." I still love the old school players (herb ellis, grant green, etc.) but that sound is not for me and I wonder why in jazz we still try to sound like it's 1950.
Seems to me that one might as well use a $100 guitar and a $100 amp and you could sound like most "jazz" players I hear today (Kurt Rosenwinkel- yuck!).
Anyone else go for the "real" sound of their guitar and not roll off all the tone (real sound) on either guitar or amp?
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09-14-2012 02:38 PM
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Give your ears some more time to adapt to the jazz guitar sound. I've gone to using a more traditional tone the longer I've been playing jazz.
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I'm not a fan of overly dull guitar sounds, but I certainly use the tone control on the amp and guitar to shape the sound. Ultimately, I can get most of the way to the sound that I want with my hands (years of acoustic playing helps with that, I think), but shaping with the controls just makes it easier to get there.
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Kurt Rosenwinkel has many fans here. We don't need another flaming thread where his fans are offended. Just dial in the tone you dig...besides, having played "jazz" for such a short time how the hell do you know what your tone is...just stating the obvious.
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H'lo atari. So.. the "real" sound. Your tone control is only a single variable of many. Strings, pick, size of the speaker, type of amp, how big the room is, what you're doing with your right hand, how many people are in the room, if there are curtains in the back, and what kind of guitar it is to mention a few.
Use your tone control as much or as little as you see fit to find the sound in your head in any given situation. Declaring there to be a "real" guitar sound and it is to be found by setting this dial to 10 (or 11).. this is the stuff of Spinal Tap.
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I play guitar, not well enough to play jazz. I tend to leave most tone controls flat -my guitar doesn't even have a tone control. But sometimes I can't get the tone I want without dropping out certain parts of the tonal spectrum. Tone controls make it easier when you have do such adjustments on the fly that you can't do any other way. Nothing wrong with Rosenwinkel's tone!
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As Spook mentions there is no "real" sound. There are a series of (many, many) tone shaping aspects to the whole system from PU to Speaker, to the size and shape of the windows in the room in which you play.
There is one set of parameters that corresponds to some "untouched" set of knob positions, but no magic purity there.
I tweak constantly at the guitar and the amp.
Are we doing "Stonehenge" tonight?
Chris
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Sorry if I offend anyone. I only use Rosenwinkel's tone as an example of what I'm talking about. Its not the playing, simply the sound. Just trying to get others opinions on what I find to be a very interesting subject regarding jazz guitar. It just seems odd that we still, regardless of the gear, go for the same sounds of the past (with some exceptions, obviously). I think the thing that bothers me so much about it is that jazz is (for the most part) a primarily acoustic music- so why do guitar players try to "mask" the sound of the instrument?
To be honest, I myself am on the verge of quitting the electric guitar completely in favor of using an acoustic flat top exclusively (with amplification when necessary, of course). So, I just thought I'd see what others thought about it.
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I always thought jazz guitarists got their sound from rolling off the treble on the guitar or amp. It wasn't until I got into archtops and started playing jazz exclusively that I got a handle on the jazz sound. A number of things contribute to the old school sound- flat wound strings(fairly heavy), particular pickups like P90s, humbuckers, etc... A wooden bridge to cut down on sustain, a suitable amp like a fender tube amp(if it has a mid control turn it way up and the treble and bass down. With no mid control just turn the treble and bass down- the mid will still be there. Same result. Guitar contruction plays a part in overall sound too but it's debatable how much it matters compaired to other things. I love the late 50's - early 60's sound.
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For me I mainly played bass when young and was in habit of volume and tone wide open and control was my hands and amp. On guitar mainly leave the tone wide open and use volume control to take edge off if needed. Also from playing bass I control tone a lot from where I pick the string, darker by the neck and brighter by the bridge. If I want real dark for a passage I just switch to finger no pick. A lot you can do with just your hands.
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>>> so why do guitar players try to "mask" the sound of the instrument?
Ooooh. I think this is called "petitio principii" as a logical fallacy.
I do not think that most guitar players would agree that they are masking anything. Well maybe hiding a little paunch behind a guitar,...
If a flat top is your road to salvation, have at it and post some clips.
There is certainly some fine jazz played on flat tops - which have considerable tone shaping and control built in, but no matter,...
Chris
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Those are actually the "flat" response settings. If the bass, mid, treble are all at "5" then there's a dip in the mid and huge boosts to the bass and treble. Here's a comparison of the two responses which is not what you'd expect:
Originally Posted by Stevebol
So the "real" or "pure" sound of the electric guitar is mostly the mids and its generally only the jazz players who roll down the treble all the way either on the guitar or the amp. And the saying "tone is in the fingers" applies most to jazz... but I'd rephrase that to be "tone is in the pick controlled by the fingers"
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No you were correct the first time, for some of use our thumb in lieu of a pick! Originally Posted by FrankyNoTone
And the saying "tone is in the fingers" applies most to jazz... but I'd rephrase that to be "tone is in the pick controlled by the fingers"
Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 09-15-2012 at 01:48 PM.
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Well isn't an amp already a tone control . Many of those components are there to produce a particular timbre , part of what gives different amps their particular flavor . How many people have significantly changed the tone of their tube amps by simply soldering in a few new caps , the tone controls may remain unchanged , yet the amp will sound like a whole different animal. Tube or transistor types, again , different sounds even with a flat response.
So i guess i'm really asking how much an amplifeid sound can be considered pure .
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Sorry for the spelling error.
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I think you're supposed to use Pat Matheny for that example Originally Posted by atari4003
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there's the cap tone change thread...it was turned inside out and back again: Originally Posted by blindjimmy
Using HIGH quality capacitors help tone
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new tradition. Originally Posted by SamBooka
I can relate to what the OP is attempting to accomplish. At some point I stopped searching for that fat WesMo tone in gear and chose to focus on getting the preconceived tone in my head (ears) to reveal itself through my fingers...I've had moments of brilliance!Last edited by 2bornot2bop; 09-14-2012 at 08:02 PM.
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Excellent points everyone.
As regards amps: yes, I have recently read somewhere that to get a "flat" response out of a guitar amp one must set the controls in very odd places.
I guess most of it must be coming from my bass playing years, where it was "all in the fingers" and I see I'm not alone here!
I suppose coming from that school I had always believed that jazz guitarists must be after a flat or pure response from their gear too. I'll admit- I absolutely love the sound of Barney Kessel, Kenny Burrell and Wes Montgomery and many others. I'm just too anal (or stupid!) to go for it myself and will have to stick with my acoustic, where I can't mess with my sound!
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I don't require a tone knob on my own guitar. I set the amp to sound good with all pickup combinations. When I want a traditional jazz tone (which is most of the time), I just go to the neck pickup.
I never use the tone knob on the guitar. But the tone knobs on the amp are essential.
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How do you not use the tone control on an amp? EQ doesn't work that way...no matter how you set the knobs you're coloring the sound.
And anyone who thinks jazz players "roll off all the tone" hasn't listened to much jazz...you can count the good players who have recorded with that dark of a tone on one hand.
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Nobody mentioned that the volume knob affects tone yet, so I feel it's a good time to do that.
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what if you do not own an amp... Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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I suppose if you play strictly acoustically, if you don't own a tone knob on guitar or amp, then you won't have a setting for them. Otherwise, you can't help but have SOME setting. Originally Posted by calgarc
I think the OP is asking who never changes their tone settings on amp or guitar, just sets them somewhere and leaves them there. And I'll admit I have preferred settings on both guitar and amp for each guitar. Once set for a given guitar, I don't change them.
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I thnk one of the main reason is that this traditionnal sound helps an instrument which is not extraordinary dynamic cutting out in a band situation. you need to be heard, you and the variations of your playing, through the mix of a piano, sax, double bass and drums. and it's very different than in a rock situation where the guitar is so loud that it is heard all over the place.
Rosenwinkel says he is looking for a sound that has weight in a single note situation for example.
if you have a flat sound, i find you're lost in the mix, while this jazz sound helps you being heard.
and it's also not THAT dark .. i find that the best way to get at this sound is to have to tone open on the guitar.. and treble cut down on the amp .. you still hear the treble, through the filter of the amp settings..
anyway, to me it's a question of being heard in a band situation, with an electric guitar
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