Less is More Archtops

[Patrick2]

>>> Should every singer need to be as talented as Barbara or Celine

???

I'm at a loss for what you question here PT?

[PTChristopher]

Hee-hee.

No question of the actual ability of these fine singers to make notes and music.

Maybe not on my playlist, but that is not saying much.

Chris

[Patrick2]

Hee-hee.

No question of the actual ability of these fine singers to make notes and music.

Maybe not on my playlist, but that is not saying much.

Chris

Yeah ..that's what I wasn't understanding. I don't think that there is anyone alive that can sincerely and objectively state or believe that these two ladies aren't amongst the best singers ever to have lived. But, like you . . not on my play list either.

[Patrick2]

These discussions are fraught AND frustrating. On the one hand we come to these forums because we want to show off about the gear we've bust ourselves to get - but as soon as we do that we upset people who have cheaper gear. The other thing that happens is that people who can only afford cheaper gear (usually youngsters or people who actually play for a living - these people tend to be very poor - at least if they're playing JAZZ for a living) come to these forums to try to convince themselves that their cheap gear is really just as good as the expensive gear fools buy who have money to burn. These posters tend to get flack from (older) people who want to insist that there was good reason they bust themselves spending all that money on gear, and so will not want to allow that cheap gear can be very good.

I think this is frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong.

Mr. B. is making a perfectly good point here - but why does he have to make it? Who is making him feel bad because he wants to put some of his resources into guitars? (oh yes - the people who have fewer resources to put into guitars than he has...)


I started gigging twenty years ago with a 300 dollar Ibanez jazz guitar. It was the best guitar I could afford at the time. I've spent years gigging with middle of the road gibsons (contemporary 175s etc.). Now I play with the best gear (non-collector) money can buy - yes the very best. I've spent the only spare money I have every had (inheritance money) on very expensive guitars (two of them, by golly).

There is an enormous difference between the cheap gear and the expensive gear and it is not an esoteric tonal arty-farty difference either.

Why am I so sure this is not just an exercise in self-justification? Because of the number of hours I've spent playing mediocre guitars in public that didn't work very well and drove me crazy because they did not work very well - and because of how incredibly easy it is to tell that the guitars I now use do not give me any of that trouble.

Really expensive hand carved archtop guitars do not feed back like middle of the road 175s. You can keep the tone control on FULL - preserving the definition and clarity of the sound - avoiding muddy mid frequencies that produce feedback. This also enables you to play with the volume lower and this reduces feedback-hell still further (because you can't easily hear a guitar with its tone control turned right down). So these super-expensive (one of my guitars cost 5000 the other cost 6500) guitars just WORK much better than the cheaper ones. (AT LEAST THE REALLY WELL MADE ONES DO - it is possible - easy even - to spend 10,000 on a bad archtop guitar.)

If twenty years ago I had somehow got 5000 k together - and if some more experienced jazz player had said to me what I'm saying in this post - I would have gone straight out and spent every penny on a (well-chosen) 5,000 k archtop (one made to play not to collect).

A man I hated once said to me as we were heading into the fifth of a seven course meal in a twenty seven star hotel (a meal he was paying for) - that 'the best is never good value'. The wine we were drinking was over a hundred pounds per bottle. It was clearly not really worth five times what the wine in a 20 pound bottle was worth - but it was a thrill to drink the stuff nevertheless. So just to get this clear - it was MUCH better wine - but not SO much better that it could possibly count as good value.

I'm not sure that this story really matches the point I've been making here - because I think that 5000 for a guitar that is easy to hear in public AND sounds nice and soft and warm actually IS really good value.

Another point of clarification to try to avoid the obvious responses. I'm talking about archtop fully hollow jazz guitars here (that is instruments with a fundamental amplification problem). I bet you can get a nice soft and warm tone with a tele-type thing quite cheaply.

LOLOL . . . I have to rate this post a 98 out of 100 for it's correctness and spot on accuracy. However, I have to rate it at a 100 out of 100 for it's entertainment value. I was laughing throughout Groyniad's effective colloquilalism. I might even start looking for this 27 star restaurant!!!

[Spook410]

The only part I didn't get was " A man I hated once said to me as we were heading into the fifth of a seven course meal in a twenty seven star hotel.."

Sounds like something from an epic Richard Thompson song.

[Hammertone]

A song?

"I eat when I'm hungry, I drink when I'm dry
And if moonshine don't kill me I'll live till I die"

[ooglybong]

If I had to list it, my top 5 under $1,000 would have to be as follows:

1. Epiphone Broadway*
2. Godin 5th Ave (any)
3. Loar 300 series (650 if you get it used)
4. Epiphone Joe Pass Emporer II*
5. Dean Palomino (played them, nicer than they seem)

* Epiphones 2007 or older...

Thoughts and arguments?

~Danny

No arguments on any of those. I've played a few that were very nice, too.

However, MY favorite sleeper cheapie "archtop" has got to be my Cort Triggs (model I, not the later model II with two humbuckers and a Bigsby—totally different animals). (Mine's actually a transparent Gretsch orange, but they also made it in, at least, turquoise. Ugh, IMO.)

Thin like a single-cutaway 335 but fully-hollow, with one Mighty Mite neck pickup. (Or possibly even more accurately described as being like an ES-125TC.) As I set the controls, both rolled off a bit (the tone moreso), mine gets an immediate, dark sound with some acoustic-sounding punch and quick response (think sorta Martino; at least that's IMHO). Personally, I love the tone and response of this guitar.

Anyway, I bought it used several years ago. Took it off the rack, played a few chords—really liking it immediately—looked up, and my wife was actually already saying "Wow". (Yeah. Like I'm that good.) Nice neck, IMO, and I get around it as fast as I need to. I also happen to think that it looks pretty cool, too. Very nice fit and finish on what I'm assuming is Korean built. (It's been out of production for years now and is becoming increasingly rare to find.) No case with it, but it does fit a 335-style case just fine.

BTW, my other "jazz" guitars (for comparison) are an Eastman Pisano, Eastman El Rey I, 1985 Fender D'Aguisto Elite, Hofner Jazzica, and a D'Angelico EXS-1DH. (Also a '65 ES-335.) All have been acquired over many, many years. Even so, I still really enjoy playing this particular Triggs guitar all the time and would happily gig with it, too. I suppose that it's a comparative "knock-around" guitar but I'd be sorely upset if it ever got damaged (and then I'd buy another right away IF I could find one).

Larry

[bborzell]

I like to see Cort Triggs love. And, while I agree that the single pickup model is different from the 2 pickup/Bigsby version, I woundn't go so far as to agree that they are totally different animals (or even guitars, for that matter).

Having played both and owning a TRG-2, my take is that the TRG-1 sounds like a TRG-2 with the neck selected and the Bigsby lever out of action. Necks are the same. Fit and finish is fine on both models. I deep sixed the Mighty Mites within 6 months of buying my TRG-2 some 10 years ago. Replaced them with a SD '59 and JB.

[bborzell]

[QUOTE=Patrick2;245573]

245515Somewhere in this thread someone sorta summed up the main argument for preferring expensive guitars as the need for "soul". I guess that particular attribute is as good a rationale as any other that isn't grounded in playability and/or sound quality. The implied message seems to be based upon the premise that the high zoot instruments have soul and the less expensive ones, well, don't.



If someone saw the end result of what you created, and considered your scull to be one of the finest they've seen . . . and also considered themselves to be enthusiasts of the sport, the culture and the world of sculling . . . . then asked you to build one for them . . . would that be a bad thing? If you decided to do it, and other friends of his saw your work and decided after seeing it that they had to have one . . . would they then be snobbish to all other inferior and less expensive sculls? Would they too be those people that you wouldn't want to spend much time around?



Have you not met any people who play inexpensive instruments who you didn't want to spend any time around?

For me, the problem with comments such as these, which I consider to be unfortunate at the very least, is that they imply that all who own expensive guitars are of the ilk you frown upon. Why does no one even recognize that good, non pretentious, down to earth people have the right to own what ever they chose to based upon their own preferences . . whether or not those preferences are subjective or objective . . . and also based upon what ever they can afford.



Sounds to me like you made a very poor and uninformed decision about which $55K automobile to buy . . . more so than it sounds like spending $55K on an automobile was a poor financial decision. I spent $55K on a new E320 for my wife back in 2003. Haven't spent $0.10 in repairs on it since, it has 70K miles on it and the only time it has spent in the shop is routine maintenance. Many more such examples from many other high end auto manufactures.



And that should never be looked down upon or thought poorly of by anyone. Nor should the reverse of that be either, by those who would frown upon or catagorize all of those who believe there is magic . . of any type . . in certain guitars, as "people they wouldn't want to spend to much time around".



But it does to others. No need to speak pejoratively of them.

Why speak perjoratively in general terms when you can just make personal attacks on real people? You have read so much into my comments that are not reflective of me or my views that I can only presume that expressions of any position that runs counter to your view of how the world should be have to be shouted down. I'm glad I have my life and not yours.

Once again, I am reminded why I took Heritage off my short list.

[Patrick2]

[quote=bborzell;245877]

Why speak perjoratively in general terms when you can just make personal attacks on real people? You have read so much into my comments that are not reflective of me or my views that I can only presume that expressions of any position that runs counter to your view of how the world should be have to be shouted down. I'm glad I have my life and not yours.

Once again, I am reminded why I took Heritage off my short list.

Hey man . . . I've made no personal attacks on you. I've only made observations of your posts and responded to them. When I call you a prick, or an ass-hole . . . then that's a personal attack. I haven't done that, nor do I intend to. I continued on with what I found to be a very engaging conversation with a pretty well informed person. . . . you. If you run out of substantive responses to what I post as counter points to your opinions.. . it's really unfair to catagorize my posts as personal attacks. When I run a personal attack on you . . . . it will be unmistakeable. Regarding taking Heritage off of your short list . . . well, that's more your loss than Heritage's.

[feet]

i came up with a simple mathematical formula to solve this problem:

if your gear is worse than mine, you are a loser. if you gear is better than mine, you are a douchebag.

glad i can help.

[2bornot2bop]

Indeed. Let's just be clear about that...

One of the dumb things I did a few years ago was to sell a $5500 Gibson L-5CN because I had just bought an $800 D'Angelico EXL-1SH that "sounded just as good, so why should I own this expensive Gibson?" Perhaps it did sound just as good, objectively, all other things being equal. It was a beautiful, extremely high-value-per-dollar guitar. It was in every way giggable, exquisitely playable, and practical due to its low cost.

But I later sold the D'Angelico too, because for all its utility, it had no soul. I too am inspired by more than just the music. I love a fine guitar for its history, its rarity, the craftsmanship, and the exclusivity. I enjoy playing it and thinking about what it is as I do so. It ain't a crime (there are far worse things to overindulge in or to conspicuously consume).

Hell, I reuse tin foil, wash plastic utensils, and wear my jeans until they develop holes. But I am not going to be saving money on guitars anytime soon. Unless I just stop buying them, which is, quite honestly, a valid thing to consider.

Would that by chance be the Red EXL-1DP I acquired from you instead? That was a real nice guitar. It's now long gone from me too. I'm in a Vestax NYL-2 and NYL-4 mode.

[ooglybong]

i came up with a simple mathematical formula to solve this problem:

if your gear is worse than mine, you are a loser. if you gear is better than mine, you are a douchebag.

glad i can help.

+1. Being the artsy type, I was never too good at math... but this makes way too much sense to not understand!

[mr. beaumont]

i came up with a simple mathematical formula to solve this problem:

if your gear is worse than mine, you are a loser. if you gear is better than mine, you are a douchebag.

glad i can help.

much like anybody who drives faster than me is a lunatic, but anyone who drives slower is a moron.

[ooglybong]

much like anybody who drives faster than me is a lunatic, but anyone who drives slower is a moron.

Ha! That's also a good one, but oh, nooo... Now we'll be back again to comparing cars to guitars!

[woyvel]

I'll put my Ibanez AFS75 out there as a steal of a deal, even when I bought it new for $325. It's not the same AF75 they have today. Mine has a wider body and is thin, similar to a Casino with humbuckers. Great guitar, fun to play, sounds great, and looks great too.

[Bluedawg]

I will add that I played an Ibanez guitar recently .. not sure of the model, it looked like an artcore version of a George Benson

I was impressed .. it was at least 75% of what my fancy Gibsons are ..

So the question is whether are not that extra 20% or so in performance and tone is worth paying 15 times as much money?


Diminishing returns can be rather frustrating at times.

[Patrick2]

[quote=Bluedawg;246374]I will add that I played an Ibanez guitar recently .. not sure of the model, it looked like an artcore version of a George Benson

I was impressed .. it was at least 75% of what my fancy Gibsons are ..

So the question is whether are not that extra 20% or so in performance and tone is worth paying 15 times as much money?

The answer to this question, remains the same as it has been for all of the millions of times it's been posed . . . . "It is for some ..it's not for others".

Diminishing returns can be rather frustrating at times.

Depends upon your perspective.

[Groyniad]

[quote=Patrick2;246375]

I will add that I played an Ibanez guitar recently .. not sure of the model, it looked like an artcore version of a George Benson

I was impressed .. it was at least 75% of what my fancy Gibsons are ..



The answer to this question, remains the same as it has been for all of the millions of times it's been posed . . . . "It is for some ..it's not for others".




Depends upon your perspective.

That's just a way of not answering the question - or of saying it isn't a legitimate question. Noone asked whether a high-end guitar is worth it for them. This is not directed at Patrick because EVERYONE says this sort of thing ALL the time. If 'it' is all a matter of personal opinion - there IS no 'it' and we should all shut up! Of course it is legitimate to ask whether, say, vintage gibson archtops are really (objectively - whoever the hell you are) worth the money - or whether contemporary hand built archtops are worth the money (objectively). The fact that it would be stupid to get one for a four year old or a horse does not mean that there is no interesting answer to the question. If you play loud rock then no, if you only have one arm then (probably) no, if you live on fifty bucks a week then it would really be a bad idea for you (you'd be well advised to sell it if you could - even if you really really like it). All this sort of thing GOES WITHOUT SAYING! And it does not make the simple question - are they really worth it - illegitimate. What the hell else are we going to talk about on a jazz guitar gizmo forum if not the (objective - opinion-independent) quality of guitars. A guitar is NOT fantastic because someone thinks it is - they could be very ill-informed, inexperienced, unskilled etc. etc. If a guitar was good just because someone thought it was, there would be NO point in asking or thinking about the relative qualities of guitars. Aren't we all familiar with that experience when you try a different guitar and you realize that the guitar you've been worshiping for ages just ain't (objectively) anything like as good as you took it to be. The value of a tool may be relative to a given range of tasks (a good knife has no value if you want to mow the grass) but that is not the same as it being relative to your 'perspective'.

Like I said - you could look through thousands of posts and make this same point.

[spiral]

Thoughts and arguments?

I still shake my head at the quality vs. price of these:
Loar LO-216 ($230, parlor)
Eastman AR-371 ($500)
Eastman AR-605 ($900)

The Loar is pretty magical for what is basically the price of a fancy dinner.

[2bornot2bop]

One can't find '371's for $500 any more. That was an entry level price.

[Woody Sound]

I think that for most players, a moderately priced instrument would meet most to all of their needs. However, we are well trained consumers, so when the bucks come in, we buy a more expensive guitar. I have this notion though, that players should live up to their instruments. If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?
Bill

Not a direct analogy, but a mediocre player paying gobs of money for a fabulous expensive guitar reminds me of people who spend gobs of money on super fast expensive cars, just to drive on straight 55mph highways.

[spiral]

One can't find '371's for $500 any more. That was an entry level price.

Correct. I should have said all the ones i listed were bought as B-Stock or blem prices. But even brand spanking new they are well below the budget—even if you bought all three they would total less than $2800. We are spoiled with quality choices which is why i think people own so many.

[AlohaJoe]

I have a few nice vintage guitars, but I keep going back to this 12 year old Guild X150 a really under-appreciated workhorse jazz guitar. I love the neck and the sound is just right for most of what I do. I added a Pete Biltoft CC pickup (very cool), but pots, bridge, nut, tuners etc are all original and the whole thing is replaceable for maybe $1200.

[thrush40]

I think that for most players, a moderately priced instrument would meet most to all of their needs. However, we are well trained consumers, so when the bucks come in, we buy a more expensive guitar. I have this notion though, that players should live up to their instruments. If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?
Bill

I absolutely do not feel this way. I work very hard and earn a decent, but not extravagant, living. I don't have much time to practice. When I do find the time for music, I get great joy out of running through standards (or Tom Waits tunes or Grateful Dead or whatever). I have an appreciation for nice gear.

A good set up can make worlds of mediocre gear. A great musician can make great music on anything. I am not a great musician. I am just in love with music. I will never be a great musician. A really well made instrument well "set up" is a joy. Please do not hold me accountable to live up the instruments I own, will own, play and will play. And this is certainly not limited to instruments. Include amplifiers, maybe ovens and cars too.

For the record, I do not own any gear that cost me over 2000.00 USD. My oven is another story. And yes, in that case, I can live up to me gear.

Cheers,
Ben