Less is More Archtops

[rpguitar]

Bill, I appreciate the distinction you made between judgment and envy. And I'm sincerely glad this is staying friendly and not getting personal. I also agree about enough vs. excess being something to consider - that consideration exists in many arenas of life.

Others have used Armani suits as an example. Sure, I think they look nice - but fancy guy clothes are utterly uninteresting to me (gals, that's a different story). I prefer T-shirts or athletic duds. But I don't judge fancy suit-wearers as being over-indulgent. Everybody has their thing, except for monks and ascetics of course.

Bottom line - I'm not living this life to just have what is "enough." I like a little something special in the pursuits that excite me. So I have some fancy guitars. And I am no George Benson, but I wouldn't say that I suck either, so I like to think I've earned the right to play 'em.

[mr. beaumont]

I think life with no indulgences is pretty f--ing boring.

I might drive a used Ford Focus, buy most of my clothes at Target and live in a modest, two bedroom house. But I'll be damned if I'm not gonna drink good whisky, eat organic produce, and have some nice guitars around the house!

[Socalbill]

Bill, I appreciate the distinction you made between judgment and envy. And I'm sincerely glad this is staying friendly and not getting personal. I also agree about enough vs. excess being something to consider - that consideration exists in many arenas of life.

Others have used Armani suits as an example. Sure, I think they look nice - but fancy guy clothes are utterly uninteresting to me (gals, that's a different story). I prefer T-shirts or athletic duds. But I don't judge fancy suit-wearers as being over-indulgent. Everybody has their thing, except for monks and ascetics of course.

Bottom line - I'm not living this life to just have what is "enough." I like a little something special in the pursuits that excite me. So I have some fancy guitars. And I am no George Benson, but I wouldn't say that I suck either, so I like to think I've earned the right to play 'em.

I guess the difference between what is enough and excess is an individuals choice. I agree with everything you say (including the suit comment) but I find that my esthetic is shifting to simpler is better. Thanks for the response and +1 on keeping things friendly.
Bill

[loydb]

But I'll be damned if I'm not gonna drink good whisky, eat organic produce, and have some nice guitars around the house!

This.

[JohnRosett]

I bought this '66 Epiphone Sorrento deep body last year for $600. It has a repaired neck crack that effects nothing. It's really everything I want in a guitar: sounds great, plays great, vintage vibe, and cheap!

[pingu]

used to have a thin body version of that Sorrento

Great guitar ,bit like an ES125 kinda
I would have definately kept it and played it as my main
guitar if it had been a thick body one like yours

Nice and light aren't they .........

[JohnRosett]

Light weight, short scale, skinny neck...It's the perfect guitar for me.
It's the only deep body, single cutaway Sorrento that I've been able to find.

[bborzell]

Somewhere in this thread someone sorta summed up the main argument for preferring expensive guitars as the need for "soul". I guess that particular attribute is as good a rationale as any other that isn't grounded in playability and/or sound quality. The implied message seems to be based upon the premise that the high zoot instruments have soul and the less expensive ones, well, don't.

I have a well equipped wood shop and have built many pieces that I consider both well made and very nice to look at and feel. Most of my work doesn't have to perform in the same manner as a guitar (holding up things or people isn't all that hard to do), but I am in the final finish stage of a wood rowing scull that adds very sweet performance to a very nice appearance.

For me, the measure of any instrument is how it feels in my hands and how it sounds. I have held and played several expensive instruments that did not feel or sound to my liking. Did any of them have soul? I don't know. Maybe they did, but I have known people who truely believed they were quite soulful who I didn't want to spend any time around.

I spent $55K for a car once; it was the worst financial decision I have ever made. On the day of the third major system failure, the general manager of the dealership told me that owning his brand was not simply having a car to drive, it was rather having become an exclusive member of a relatively small fraternity of special people who were judged by the purchasing decisions that they made. I told him that I was now judging him and the manufacturer by the brain dead comment that he had just made in order to avoid taking responsibility for poor quality control. I added that I expected him to repair the car or be sued under California's lemon law. He repaired the car and I sold it the next week.

I don't spend any more for cars than I need to in order to obtain the real features I need or want and I don't spend any more on instruments than I need to in order to have something that feels good physically and sounds pleasant to my ear. Being a member of a fraternity of "discriminating owners" holds no meaning to me.

[ruger9]

I don't have as much archtop experience as you guys, but I pretty much agree... one of my best electrics is a $600 PRS singlecut. Plays every bit as good as my MIA Fender Tele, my MIJ Gretsch Hot Rod. Price doesn't neccesarily = quality anymore, many times it seems to only = country of manufacture. This has become more & more true in recent years. Global economics.

I'm quite sure a Gretsch SSLVO won't play any better than my Hot Rod, and therefore shouldn't be worth the extra dough. However- as much fun as I'm having with my Peerless Broadway, it'll never equal my Grestch in feel or playability. So, to me- the Hot Rod IS worth the extra $$ (3x as much money) as I paid for the Broadway. But, at $475 used, I'd put my Broadway up against any other archtop in the <$1000 price range.

[Roosto]

Owned this Epi Broadway for a year now, made at the Peerless factory-

[rpguitar]

The implied message seems to be based upon the premise that the high zoot instruments have soul and the less expensive ones, well, don't.

I think that was me, and no... that's not quite the implication. It's not at all that expense = soul. "Soul" or mojo is acquired through age, use, provenance, and inherent "coolness" factor. It just so happens that many vintage instruments - the ones most likely to have these qualities - are also fairly expensive due to a combination of age, rarity, and desirability. But not all old guitars are expensive. A Gibson ES-125 or L-50, while not "cheap," certainly competes with many quality modern instruments in terms of price, and has plenty of soul.

I have a 1985 Porsche 911 Carrera. I actually bought it 12 years ago for a good deal less money then I ever spent on a new car. But you'd be right if you assumed that it has more mojo than the new Ford, Audi, and Jeep autos that I've also owned.

[bborzell]

I have a 1985 Porsche 911 Carrera. I actually bought it 12 years ago for a good deal less money then I ever spent on a new car. But you'd be right if you assumed that it has more mojo than the new Ford, Audi, and Jeep autos that I've also owned.

Most 911s are going to drive and otherwise perform at a higher level than most new Fords, Audis and Jeeps and if that translates to mojo, then that is ok with me. They also start out their lives costing significantly more than other cars, some of which offer similar performance. I own a Honda S2000. I don't know how you might categorize it in terms of provenance, use and the like, but it handles like it is on rails, was distinguished as the highest HP to weight ratio naturally aspirated production car for several years (might still be) and I bought mine new for less than what we paid for my wife's Suburu Outback.

Many guitars cost a lot more than other guitars because they are hand made by people who have established a long standing reputation among buyers and players as producers of quality products. I have no problem with that. But, the point of the original post posed the notion that less expensive guitars can offer all that a guitar should be expected to offer as a musical instrument for far less than the asking price of mega buck guitars. I think that notion is correct and that characteristics that are not particularly attributable to musicality and playability such as age, provenance and, yes, coolness place the instrument in a category of collectable. Granted, these instruments would be more desirable to me than Beanie Babies, (to choose a provocative and possible button pushing example), but the dynamics that help establish their respective "value" have similarities.

[rpguitar]

the point of the original post posed the notion that less expensive guitars can offer all that a guitar should be expected to offer as a musical instrument for far less than the asking price of mega buck guitars. I think that notion is correct...

And... I would agree.

This thread has rambled well past that initial point, which is as accurate now as it was in post #1. I simply meant to counter that there are other considerations for some players that cause them to spend more than is absolutely necessary in order to have a serviceable musical instrument.

You can live well - thrive even - on the most basic foods if you choose carefully. But does that please all of us who eat? Clearly not.

[bborzell]

And... I would agree.

This thread has rambled well past that initial point, which is as accurate now as it was in post #1. I simply meant to counter that there are other considerations for some players that cause them to spend more than is absolutely necessary in order to have a serviceable musical instrument.

You can live well - thrive even - on the most basic foods if you choose carefully. But does that please all of us who eat? Clearly not.

Point well taken. Particularly the food thing.

[mangotango]

I bought this '66 Epiphone Sorrento deep body last year for $600. It has a repaired neck crack that effects nothing. It's really everything I want in a guitar: sounds great, plays great, vintage vibe, and cheap!

Oh, that looks so nice.....

[Patrick2]

[quote=bborzell;]245515Somewhere in this thread someone sorta summed up the main argument for preferring expensive guitars as the need for "soul". I guess that particular attribute is as good a rationale as any other that isn't grounded in playability and/or sound quality. The implied message seems to be based upon the premise that the high zoot instruments have soul and the less expensive ones, well, don't.

I have a well equipped wood shop and have built many pieces that I consider both well made and very nice to look at and feel. Most of my work doesn't have to perform in the same manner as a guitar (holding up things or people isn't all that hard to do), but I am in the final finish stage of a wood rowing scull that adds very sweet performance to a very nice appearance.

If someone saw the end result of what you created, and considered your scull to be one of the finest they've seen . . . and also considered themselves to be enthusiasts of the sport, the culture and the world of sculling . . . . then asked you to build one for them . . . would that be a bad thing? If you decided to do it, and other friends of his saw your work and decided after seeing it that they had to have one . . . would they then be snobbish to all other inferior and less expensive sculls? Would they too be those people that you wouldn't want to spend much time around?

For me, the measure of any instrument is how it feels in my hands and how it sounds. I have held and played several expensive instruments that did not feel or sound to my liking. Did any of them have soul? I don't know. Maybe they did, but I have known people who truely believed they were quite soulful who I didn't want to spend any time around.

Have you not met any people who play inexpensive instruments who you didn't want to spend any time around?

For me, the problem with comments such as these, which I consider to be unfortunate at the very least, is that they imply that all who own expensive guitars are of the ilk you frown upon. Why does no one even recognize that good, non pretentious, down to earth people have the right to own what ever they chose to based upon their own preferences . . whether or not those preferences are subjective or objective . . . and also based upon what ever they can afford.

I spent $55K for a car once; it was the worst financial decision I have ever made. On the day of the third major system failure, the general manager of the dealership told me that owning his brand was not simply having a car to drive, it was rather having become an exclusive member of a relatively small fraternity of special people who were judged by the purchasing decisions that they made. I told him that I was now judging him and the manufacturer by the brain dead comment that he had just made in order to avoid taking responsibility for poor quality control. I added that I expected him to repair the car or be sued under California's lemon law. He repaired the car and I sold it the next week.

Sounds to me like you made a very poor and uninformed decision about which $55K automobile to buy . . . more so than it sounds like spending $55K on an automobile was a poor financial decision. I spent $55K on a new E320 for my wife back in 2003. Haven't spent $0.10 in repairs on it since, it has 70K miles on it and the only time it has spent in the shop is routine maintenance. Many more such examples from many other high end auto manufactures.

I don't spend any more for cars than I need to in order to obtain the real features I need or want and I don't spend any more on instruments than I need to in order to have something that feels good physically and sounds pleasant to my ear.

And that should never be looked down upon or thought poorly of by anyone. Nor should the reverse of that be either, by those who would frown upon or catagorize all of those who believe there is magic . . of any type . . in certain guitars, as "people they wouldn't want to spend to much time around".

Being a member of a fraternity of "discriminating owners" holds no meaning to me.

But it does to others. No need to speak pejoratively of them.

[Spook410]

It's not clear to me what expensive car reliability has to do with guitars. I gave up on BMW even though I loved driving them. Couldn't take their reliability issues. Would only equate to expensive guitars if they had issues you had to live with to get some of the performance benefits. For the most part, this is not the case.

Cheap guitars are not as good as expensive guitars. Some really want them to be, but they aren't. They may be good guitars. They may meet all requirements for a given purpose. They may be a great value. However you can't compare solid wood hand made American guitars to price-point plywood Asian imports.

As for mojo and cool.. I'm not a collector and for the most part I don't understand collecting. However, it's a common and harmless vice . I do benefit from their knowledge and enjoy the history and pictures they post.

[Bluedawg]

It's all relative ... mix in your personnal priorities and your personnal financial situation and we each do what works for us

If you can find that $800 guitar that lights your fire better than an $8K or even a $20K guitar then more power to you. And consider yourself lucky.

Some people find what they need for under $2K and others find what they want at $8K and are willing to spend that kind money ... and then others have no problem spending $15K, $20K, or even $50K.

It's all good.

[Patrick2]

" holds no meaning to me.[/quote]

I think that for most players, a moderately priced instrument would meet most to all of their needs. However, we are well trained consumers, so when the bucks come in, we buy a more expensive guitar. I have this notion though, that players should live up to their instruments. If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?
Bill

Yeah . . . that's pretty much crazy. That's like saying that only a gourmet chef has the right to eat in a great and expensive restaurant . . . or be able to use the finest cutlery and cook ware made.

What the heck does one's ability to play a guitar have to do with their right to own what ever the they want??

Should every singer need to be as talented as Barbara or Celine in order to sing through the very best microphones?

Should every recording artist need to be of super star status to have their recording done at the finest most modern and technically sophisticated studios available?

It's funny . . . with atitudes like the one expressed in your post . . . I have to wonder why it is that collectors are considered to be the snobbish ones.

[jorgemg1984]

If you're an home player buy the best guitar you can afford even if you can't play it that well. If you can afford a Zeidler and if you love to play it go for it; if you can only afford a Kingpin but you love to play it go for it - it's your own business. Why would I be bothered some guy who can't play has a 20k archtop? It's up to him, not me.

If you gig a lot you'll have to take other issues in account.

[Groyniad]

I think life with no indulgences is pretty f--ing boring.

I might drive a used Ford Focus, buy most of my clothes at Target and live in a modest, two bedroom house. But I'll be damned if I'm not gonna drink good whisky, eat organic produce, and have some nice guitars around the house!

These discussions are fraught AND frustrating. On the one hand we come to these forums because we want to show off about the gear we've bust ourselves to get - but as soon as we do that we upset people who have cheaper gear. The other thing that happens is that people who can only afford cheaper gear (usually youngsters or people who actually play for a living - these people tend to be very poor - at least if they're playing JAZZ for a living) come to these forums to try to convince themselves that their cheap gear is really just as good as the expensive gear fools buy who have money to burn. These posters tend to get flack from (older) people who want to insist that there was good reason they bust themselves spending all that money on gear, and so will not want to allow that cheap gear can be very good.

I think this is frustrating. Maybe I'm wrong.

Mr. B. is making a perfectly good point here - but why does he have to make it? Who is making him feel bad because he wants to put some of his resources into guitars? (oh yes - the people who have fewer resources to put into guitars than he has...)


I started gigging twenty years ago with a 300 dollar Ibanez jazz guitar. It was the best guitar I could afford at the time. I've spent years gigging with middle of the road gibsons (contemporary 175s etc.). Now I play with the best gear (non-collector) money can buy - yes the very best. I've spent the only spare money I have every had (inheritance money) on very expensive guitars (two of them, by golly).

There is an enormous difference between the cheap gear and the expensive gear and it is not an esoteric tonal arty-farty difference either.

Why am I so sure this is not just an exercise in self-justification? Because of the number of hours I've spent playing mediocre guitars in public that didn't work very well and drove me crazy because they did not work very well - and because of how incredibly easy it is to tell that the guitars I now use do not give me any of that trouble.

Really expensive hand carved archtop guitars do not feed back like middle of the road 175s. You can keep the tone control on FULL - preserving the definition and clarity of the sound - avoiding muddy mid frequencies that produce feedback. This also enables you to play with the volume lower and this reduces feedback-hell still further (because you can't easily hear a guitar with its tone control turned right down). So these super-expensive (one of my guitars cost 5000 the other cost 6500) guitars just WORK much better than the cheaper ones. (AT LEAST THE REALLY WELL MADE ONES DO - it is possible - easy even - to spend 10,000 on a bad archtop guitar.)

If twenty years ago I had somehow got 5000 k together - and if some more experienced jazz player had said to me what I'm saying in this post - I would have gone straight out and spent every penny on a (well-chosen) 5,000 k archtop (one made to play not to collect).

A man I hated once said to me as we were heading into the fifth of a seven course meal in a twenty seven star hotel (a meal he was paying for) - that 'the best is never good value'. The wine we were drinking was over a hundred pounds per bottle. It was clearly not really worth five times what the wine in a 20 pound bottle was worth - but it was a thrill to drink the stuff nevertheless. So just to get this clear - it was MUCH better wine - but not SO much better that it could possibly count as good value.

I'm not sure that this story really matches the point I've been making here - because I think that 5000 for a guitar that is easy to hear in public AND sounds nice and soft and warm actually IS really good value.

Another point of clarification to try to avoid the obvious responses. I'm talking about archtop fully hollow jazz guitars here (that is instruments with a fundamental amplification problem). I bet you can get a nice soft and warm tone with a tele-type thing quite cheaply.

[PTChristopher]

>>> Should every singer need to be as talented as Barbara or Celine

???

[drobniuch]

I've got the Ibanez AGS 83b with Gibson pickups The guitar sings like an angel

[PTChristopher]

[Patrick] >>> What the heck does one's ability to play a guitar have to do with their right to own what ever the they want??

[Jorge] >>> Why would I be bothered some guy who can't play has a 20k archtop? It's up to him, not me.

Indeed. I do not get how my experience is somehow damaged by someone buying whatever they like, for whatever reason.

Chris

[rpguitar]

BTW Groyniad, I enjoyed your whole post and I agree with it. Something that brings a person great joy and inspiration for many years (or for a lifetime) IS good value, regardless of the price.