Less is More Archtops

[lindydanny]

This is sort of a response to the Archtops Under $2800 thread.

I just read the cover article for Acoustic Guitar's September 2012 issue featuring Justin Townes Earle. He was quoted as saying:

"I got tired of fans coming up and asking me what kind of guitar I was playing, and have to tell them it was a $6,000 guitar... I wanted a working guitar, where I could tell people, 'It's under $1,000. And you can easily find one.' So I just bought a Loar LO-16, and that's what I'm playing."

I really loved his point. Some of the instruments we pine over are out of the average player's reach. We (in the Jazz community and in the collectors/mid-life crisis collectors community) tend to have a problem with more $$$ = better. I don't necessarily agree. Personally, with a good setup I think an under $1,000 guitar can be just as good as some higher dollar collector guitars only without the fear of dropping it.

That all being said, I have never owned a guitar worth more than about $800. And I have rarely had the pleasure of playing one worth more than about $1,500 (though, I am a shop rat at my local store and have gotten a pass to touch most of the pretty things that come through the door; pretty things with two legs mostly excluded).

In the under a thousand range the two brands that come to mind for the new market are the Loar and Godin family. For those wanting to pay a penny or so more, they also offer boxes in the higher price range. Both have rave reviews online not to mention both companies tend to handle their customer service very well.

If I had to list it, my top 5 under $1,000 would have to be as follows:

1. Epiphone Broadway*
2. Godin 5th Ave (any)
3. Loar 300 series (650 if you get it used)
4. Epiphone Joe Pass Emporer II*
5. Dean Palomino (played them, nicer than they seem)

* Epiphones 2007 or older...

Of the above, I've played all but the Loars. I own a Joe Pass which is great minus the electronics (pickups are great). However, even if you bought a used archtop for $500 and had to have it serviced and new pickups put it, you could still have a workhorse for under a grand.

Thoughts and arguments?

~Danny

[jorgemg1984]

I have a Godin Kingpin, got it used. Put a Bare Knuckles Half-Note, Bare Kncukles electronics, ebony bridge... sounds great and costed 500€ total (used). I really like it and gig a lot with this guitar but I have to say it's still far from my vintage Guild X-500 (in the 3000€ price range)...

[Tom Karol]

lindydanny said, "...with a good setup I think an under $1,000 guitar can be just as good as some higher dollar collector guitars only without the fear of dropping it."

I couldn't agree more! While I have owned some more expensive guitars in the past, I currently have 3 electrics - each of which cost no more than $800:
Hamer T-51 (Tele clone);
Crafter SEG480 (335 clone);
Eastman AR403CE (X-150 clone).
Each one has had a pro setup done.
I'd rather have these 3 than 1 $2400 guitar for sure!
The only guitar I currently have that is worth more is my 1976 Martin 000-28, but I paid $470 for it new back in 1977.

[Keira Witherkay]

Well i own a stock epi emperor regent on delivery new it had a visit with my guitar tech who put in graphite nut , did a fret dress and setup also did some shaving in wooden bridge and since then i have a fabulous guitar that intonates well and has a low buzz free action with flatwound 12's a dream to play , and i recently aquired a tokai es155 which is 3x the value and the epi sounds as good live , for proof go check out some of my you tube vids as some have the epi and some the tokai and even my percussionist said he couldn't hear the difference ,

so yes i also agree a mid priced guitar can sound good especially for live gigs , in the studio i would not be so sure , as studio sessions are far less forgiving than live

[robertm2000]

Pickups!

I looked at a lot of semi-hollow and hollow body) guitars, owned an Epiphone Dot. All nice, but ... the pickups make the difference. Two main guitars - a "Super Squier" - Squier 51 neck, USA Custom Guitars body, Pete Biltoft Vintage Vibe Guitars CCRider pickup. It sounds the best of any guitar I've played, rich midrange sound. My other one is a Washburn W4 Strat, Seymour Duncan Cool Rails and SD Vintage Strat pickups, nice sound, a bit leaner than the Squier.

[Billnc]

I've had expensive guitars (up to 3,000 dollar range) I presently play a Dean Palomino Solo, Dean Edgepro 5 bass, Aria Pro FA50 Archtop and Carvin Bunny Brunel Fretless 5 string bass.

I love them, work them and have as much fun as my former more expensive instruments when playing. On recordings, I've long since forgotten what I used. I seem to sound like me on anything. I do seem to have particularly nice examples of each instrument.

[PaulR]

Just to add my "2 cents" worth, I've owned probably a dozen or so guitars in my lifetime and my current "go to" axe is my mid 90's Epiphone ES 295. With those great P90's it has all tones you would want. The only drawback is the feedback issue. The action has been set to my liking and my playing partner with his expensive Eastwood can't believe how nice it plays.

[smp]

Just to add my "2 cents" worth, I've owned probably a dozen or so guitars in my lifetime and my current "go to" axe is my mid 90's Epiphone ES 295. With those great P90's it has all tones you would want. The only drawback is the feedback issue. The action has been set to my liking and my playing partner with his expensive Eastwood can't believe how nice it plays.

Would a Peerless Gigmaster be any better than the current Epi ES295? It's just that they do it in a P90 , Humbucker and Jazz (without term) versions?

[Jabberwocky]

A nice expensive guitar is a nice expensive guitar is a nice expensive guitar.....

I won't get all "purist" over it. A nice expensive guitar exists for its own sake. You don't need a nice expensive piece of kit to play guitar but man, is it ever nice if your ship comes in or Lady Luck smiles on you to have a really nice expensive piece of guitar art and craft. I will be the first to admit that it is the allure of nice expensive well-crafted guitars that drew me to playing guitars; it is not solely for the music. So, I won't stop lusting after that unreachable temptress...

[Spook410]

You can currently get labor in the east at very low rates compared to the west. That accounts for some decent guitars at lower price levels. However, cheap guitars are not as good as moderately priced guitars are not as good as expensive guitars for the most part. Saying a Loar or Godin is just as good as say a Heritage discounts the materials, workmanship, and QA done on the latter. And yes, materials and workmanship translate to value and sound quality. There are exceptions. IMHO, Gibson is overpriced. Eastman is a bargain. Yunzhi is a steal. But cheap guitars, in general, are cheap guitars and you get what you pay for. That and to Jabb's point.. a fine guitar is a real joy.

[Jabberwocky]

.... IMHO, Gibson is overpriced.

The rational part of me knows that but man, I just cannot stop looking at and lusting after Gibsons...Make mine a Super 400CES, please, in Natural, all curly...

That and to Jabb's point.. a fine guitar is a real joy.

Ain't that the truth, Spook. Ain't that the truth. A 10 cents cigar is what it is but man, a Cuban is a great smoke, together with that Louis XIII swirling in a fine crystal goblet.

[Socalbill]

I think that for most players, a moderately priced instrument would meet most to all of their needs. However, we are well trained consumers, so when the bucks come in, we buy a more expensive guitar. I have this notion though, that players should live up to their instruments. If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?
Bill

[rpguitar]

A nice expensive guitar exists for its own sake. You don't need a nice expensive piece of kit to play guitar but man, is it ever nice if your ship comes in or Lady Luck smiles on you to have a really nice expensive piece of guitar art and craft.

Indeed. Let's just be clear about that...

One of the dumb things I did a few years ago was to sell a $5500 Gibson L-5CN because I had just bought an $800 D'Angelico EXL-1SH that "sounded just as good, so why should I own this expensive Gibson?" Perhaps it did sound just as good, objectively, all other things being equal. It was a beautiful, extremely high-value-per-dollar guitar. It was in every way giggable, exquisitely playable, and practical due to its low cost.

But I later sold the D'Angelico too, because for all its utility, it had no soul. I too am inspired by more than just the music. I love a fine guitar for its history, its rarity, the craftsmanship, and the exclusivity. I enjoy playing it and thinking about what it is as I do so. It ain't a crime (there are far worse things to overindulge in or to conspicuously consume).

Hell, I reuse tin foil, wash plastic utensils, and wear my jeans until they develop holes. But I am not going to be saving money on guitars anytime soon. Unless I just stop buying them, which is, quite honestly, a valid thing to consider.

[es34569]

Of the less expensive archtops, which one(s) has the best workmanship and material quality (wood and electronics)? Which one is the best bang for the buck under the $1000 price tag?

I presently own one guitar, a Gibson es345 that I bought new in 1969 for the blistering price of $375 - boy, are those days gone! So now that a bad case of GAS has set in, I'd love to own an affordable, decent archtop; however, like many of us, it's tough to put together enough nickels to buy an upper end one, and that's where the lesser priced archtops come to the forefront.
Chuck

[Jabberwocky]

I think that for most players, a moderately priced instrument would meet most to all of their needs. However, we are well trained consumers, so when the bucks come in, we buy a more expensive guitar. I have this notion though, that players should live up to their instruments. If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?
Bill

Armani counts on your not having to look like a supermodel to wear Armani. Or Armani will go flat out broke.

[Socalbill]

Armani counts on your not having to look like a supermodel to wear Armani. Or Armani will go flat out broke.

So a good suit is designed to hide ones not-a-supermodel body. Is an expensive guitar designed to make you look like a better player? This is interesting.
Bill

[Spook410]

I think that for most players, a moderately priced instrument would meet most to all of their needs. However, we are well trained consumers, so when the bucks come in, we buy a more expensive guitar. I have this notion though, that players should live up to their instruments. If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?
Bill

Fine guitars are a reward for working hard at whatever you do and being able to afford them. They are not passed out to the A students at college.

[PTChristopher]

[Socalbill] >>> If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?

Not crazy, and a very understandable view.

But I am not so sure it is my view.

I confess to thinking derisively about "Dentist Money" being spent of fine gear that is hopelessly underused. Fine axes, Leica rangefinders (in days of yore), fine flyrods and tackle, whatever - it's all a sort of waste as we often see it purchased.

But this is not a zero sum game, and I can not see how some dentist buying fine gear them pantomiming its use hurts my opportunities.

So I'm going to stay with, "it's all good". Lots of ways to enjoy a fine instrument, and each does not have to be my particular way.

Chris

[Spook410]

Of the less expensive archtops, which one(s) has the best workmanship and material quality (wood and electronics)? Which one is the best bang for the buck under the $1000 price tag?

I presently own one guitar, a Gibson es345 that I bought new in 1969 for the blistering price of $375 - boy, are those days gone! So now that a bad case of GAS has set in, I'd love to own an affordable, decent archtop; however, like many of us, it's tough to put together enough nickels to buy an upper end one, and that's where the lesser priced archtops come to the forefront.
Chuck

You have to replace the pickups and pots, but in IMHO, handmade Yunzhi archtops for $1000 are an amazing deal with all solid woods and great workmanship. It will make you happy even after a lifetime with that fine es345. It's buying a guitar without a net.. no warranty and probably not an approach everyone would be comfortable with.. but I was so happy with the first I ordered a second one and I may order one of their flat tops next.

[rpguitar]

If you are sporting a Benedetto or a vintage Gibson, you best play like you earned it. Is that crazy or do others feel this way?

That's a very normal human response of many who don't have something thinking derisively of those who do. A normal, but often unjust and undeserved bias.

There are also a far greater number of mediocre players using cheap guitars than expensive ones. If you turn off the video portion, they all sound bad to my ears. Money doesn't buy talent, it just buys better toys. But having no money doesn't help with the talent either, because (see above) it's not valid currency.

Anyway.

[NSJ]

That's a very normal human response of many who don't have something thinking derisively of those who do. A normal, but often unjust and undeserved bias.

There are also a far greater number of mediocre players using cheap guitars than expensive ones. If you turn off the video portion, they all sound bad to my ears. Money doesn't buy talent, it just buys better toys. But having no money doesn't help with the talent either, because (see above) it's not valid currency.

Anyway.

+1. I'd rather have very few exceptional guitars than a pile of cheapo ones. I'm very happy that I got rid of all my cheapo boxes. All else being equal, there is nothing like playing an exceptional instrument that is well made and sounds great.

[Jabberwocky]

So a good suit is designed to hide ones not-a-supermodel body. Is an expensive guitar designed to make you look like a better player? This is interesting.
Bill

It's the other way round. You cannot hide a not-a-supermodel body with a suit no matter how good. You'll still look bad but hey, it's an Armani. Never stopped anybody from sporting one.

Which segues nicely with a Benedetto or vintage Gibson (nothing wrong with modern ones either) being seen with players who cannot play a lick. It's still a Gibson and keeps them in business.

Thank the Grand Old Delusion for dentists, doctors, lawyers and other monied types who cannot play because they keep the factories humming and craftsmen with jobs.

(I fess up that I really cannot play that well and do not have a lot of money but I love them Gibsons but everybody has some kind of sickness, don't we all? Don't we????)

Perhaps like grand old violins, people who can afford the great guitars should just lend them out to people who can play them but cannot afford them. Jazz doesn't pay a damn.

[mr. beaumont]

Play what you like, be it a $300 Ibanez or a 30k Ken Parker artwork.


Human beings are judgemental. The quicker we all get over that, the quicker we can all just make music. Nobody has to earn their guitar. There's no graduation ceremony, no "Yay, you can play 'Giant Steps' now, that's a level 5 song, here's what's now available to you."

I play the best stuff I can afford. I have nicer stuff now than I did ten years ago, and I don't need it, but I like it, it inspires me to play. I don't look up to or down on anybody based on what they play.

In fact, the only musicians I look down on are the liars who perpetuate judgements and myths, and the snake oil teachers.Those folks aren't worthy of a cigar box with a broom handle and some fishing wire.

[Jabberwocky]

Fine guitars are a reward for working hard at whatever you do and being able to afford them. They are not passed out to the A students at college.

I agree with this.

More Leica rangefinders, titanium-gold-plated-anniversary-coronation-this-and-that-foreskin-of-the-first-whelping-of-the-himalayan-yeti specials, are traded back and forth, sealed in their factory boxes, unopened than used to make photographs. And even with this coterie of enthusiasts, Leica AG is finding it a struggle to survive. Without enthusiasts, Leica AG would have closed its doors a long time ago. How about that F0.95 Noctilux? $10 000.00 and counting. When was it last used to take a Pulitzer Prize winning photograph? If used at all, pictures of kids are more like it. (Unfair comment as I have a wedding photographer friend who actually uses it for razor-thin depth of field "artsy" pay-for-the-mortgage shots.)

I have no bone to pick with those who have nicer and fancier guitars than I do, regardless of their playing abilities. They are what they are. You appreciate a finely crafted object? Good for you as you keep a craftsman employed.

[Socalbill]

I am glad my comments seemed to be of some interest, and please remember, I am only talking about my tendency to make a judgement about earning your guitar. I don't think its envy on my part, but I can see how that might be true in some cases. To me its just a sensibility about what's enough and what is excess. Desire and suffering. I also think there is a connection to this type of notion and building instruments, but I'll save that for another time.
Bill