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I know recent Gibson quality has been dabated several times before, but today I was really taken by surprise.
I went into the local guitarstore to get some strings. I know most of the salepeople very well and two of them are fine gutarists themselves and always show me if something special is in the store.
Today they had a brand new Gibson L4 and I sat down to play it. Well, this is a really nice guitar that in many ways plays and sounds awsome. But what I don´t get is the finish showed a lot of orangepeel on both top, back and sides and when I played it unplugged it I got a distorted sound when playing certain notes. Something loose somewhere I suppose, not the hardware or knobs which we checked out.. This is not what I would expect from a guitar this expensive.
Is this really an expression of todays Gibson standard?
By the way, I was surprised too by the weight - it's a really heavy guitar
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03-30-2012 02:19 PM
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Globalisation is here to stay, but it's both ironic and sad that the best bang for your buck in a jazz guitar (an American invention) is found in Asia.
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It seems that Gibson gets a lot of bad press worldwide (they were also in the top 10 worst employers according to a recent study). I always thought their guitars are overpriced and i was never too interested in any of them.
During a recent business trip through SoCa I entered a guitarstore and what caught my eye was a stunningly beautiful ES 137 classic from the custom shop (498/498t pickups). It was flawless, pristine. I sat down to play a bit through a Deluxe reverb reissue and immediately was overwhelmed by the beauty of the sound and how nicely the guitar reacted to playing, dynamics, minor tweaks of the buttons. The pickups are nicer than classic 57s IMHO ... And it is about 2000$ including a high quality case which I find is a fair price for a really nice looking, nice playing, superbly sounding guitar. It is also very versatile and can do anything from great jazz tones to growling rock - kind of several iconic Gibsons in one package :-)
At least Gibson's are not always off. I think it would be a pitty if a company with that much know how and such a glorious history would just vanish, partially due to poor quality control and partially due to bad talk on internet forums. Sure enough, it is on them to change that. They obviously can make great guitars.
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Gibson seems to have a few people who know how to make exceptional guitars, more than a few who don't, and nobody willing or capable of deciding which ones NOT to ship. Gibson seems to ship everything, good or bad.
Seriously, someone at Gibson needs to pay attention. How much would it cost Gibson, and how much would it save them, to have one or two full-time people being a presence on the internet, active on a few dozen forums, willing to listen to and handle complaints and suggestions?
I looked at two Gibson Tobias basses, same model. One was just flawless in construction and had that magical sound. The other had been made with a green neck, routing was sloppy, and it was barely playable. Both of these were hanging in the Gibson Showcase in Nashville, both at the same price ($3000). WHY? Why would Gibson even let a poorly made, unplayable bass out of the factory, much less hang it in their showcase store? Why would nobody at Gibson bother to notice this?
So I called Gibson customer support. They said "Tobias basses? Does Gibson make those? I had no idea!" Go to the Gibson website, and this line of basses isn't mentioned! Typical Gibson. I'm glad I bought the good one, it works great in all musical situations and as far as I can tell Gibson closed the factory and doesn't make them anymore. Imagine that.
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Love their guitars but the way they treat dealers doesn't impress me a bit. Kharma's a bitch Henry!
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A well made Gibson is built to be a keeper for a lifetime. However, whenever I visit my luthier/tech, he seems to find particular enjoyment in showing me all the repair work he is doing on newer high-end Gibsons that he said never should have made it past QC and into the hands of a consumer.
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I've owned five different Gibsons in the last 37 years. Only one of those was truly a good guitar.
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It is bit strange with these Gibsons. They are so hit and miss. Everytime i go into a guitar shop I try the higher end Gibsons that they have. The majority leaves me cold. But ever so occasionally there is one that just feels right, sounds right, plays right and has that woooow factor to it. I have had many very mediocre 335s, 339s and in particular 175s in my hands. I remember a satin finished 335 that was great - but the 137 eluded to above was definitely the best Gibson ES guitar I ever laid my hands on. Probably an underappreciated design; IMHO even nicer sounding than any 335 I have heard or tried.
Since they are so incredibly uneven in quality and feel, I would not buy a Gibson unseen, untested not even from the custom shop (but I would do and have done that with Gretsches or Godins).
It is a pitty that most shops seem to pay no attention to strings and setups on their high end guitars - i am sure many of the seemingly less impressive instruments would come to life with a little more care.
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I/ve sold my Gibson Chet Atkins CE/nylon strings model/ few years ago...:-)
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that's a good way to put it. I've played some Gibsons that were amazing, one Le Grande comes to mind as one of the best guitars I've ever played, but then I'll pick up another Gibson that feels, plays and sounds like crap.
Originally Posted by FrankLearns
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They seem to hold their value better than anything else. I keep thinking this will change but all of the poor work they did in the 70's didn't seem to derail them nor did the junk they produced in Montana. Consistent quality certainly can be done. Look at Martin and Taylor. Somehow this kind of manufacturing prowess escapes Gibson
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I have owned four recent year Gibsons (currently own two) and they have all been fantastic guitars. My current fat neck 335 is one of the best guitars I've ever owned.
With as many guitars as they crank out though there are bound to be some dogs.
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If we are talking low budget instruments then this might be okay, but Gibson does not make low budget guitars. In my opinion there is not room for dogs if you want to play in the high league.With as many guitars as they crank out though there are bound to be some dogs.
What I saw on that L4 is not even a dog. That instrument should not ever have left the factory. In my opinion this is completely unacceptable and a sign of disrespect for both your own (Gibsons own) heritage and the customer.
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You should write to Gibson and let them know how disappointed you are. I don't work for them so I can't address your complaint. Originally Posted by bluefonia
I dig my two Gibsons so I don't have a problem with them. Good luck on your hunt, there are plenty of other builders out there.
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Their folly in the '70s cost them dearly. They nearly went out of business in the '80s. By some reports they were within two weeks of closing up when they were purchased. When they were bought out they undid many of the changes of the Norlin era and concentrated on quality; it was an amazing turnaround. Since then they've slipped, little by little, into a degree of complacency and worse than that, arrogance. Originally Posted by Spook410
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Yes, Gibson could certainly learn something from Martin. And yes, another icon almost went broke in the seventies too-Harley Davidson. And how about GM ? And yet, in the midst of Gibson's corporate turmoil in the '70's they produced the Les Paul Artisan -- go figure.
And now here I am with a '30's , a '70's and and '80's Gibson instruments, wondering if they can fix what ails them.
I also have to wonder about a dealer who would have an instrument available for sale and ready to play that needs basic set-up work. I'm guessing that dealer's got other problems too.
So, my advice - -find a good luthier, who can fix any flaw you find - -or he finds. Then, you'll be resting easier once you find an instrument you just gotta have. And if that luthier is going to set up and maintain your instrument anyay, which he should, then why not a Gibson ?
MHO
Dennis
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I´m not in the market for a Gibson and for clarification I´m not a Gibson "hater" either. I just wonder why their quality seems to be like night and day. Originally Posted by Jazzpunk
In this case shipping a very expensive instrument with obvious flaws.
I have no doubts there are many fine Gibsons out there and I´m glad you got two of them.
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It's a deep problem that has an effect upon many industries. A friend of mine does QC in an aircraft parts factory and the rejection rate is unbelievably high. The machinists done seem to understand that there's a cause and effect relationship between the quality of their work and the quality of the product. they dont even begin to conceive of the fact that they are undermining the employer that keeps bread on their tables.
It isn't much of a stretch to imagine that the problems with Gibson's quality span the range from the people that build the guitars to the inspectors to the production managers that apply pressure to get the product shipped to the very top management that create quotas that may not be realistic. The results would be inconsistent quality, some guitars being great, others sadly lacking . . . which is exactly what I've seen in the Gibson products I've experienced.
These problems are not unique to Gibson by any means but the final results come down to the commitment of a company to providing quality products for their customers. I don't believe in hubris or karma in the mystic sense but in principle they describe reality quite well. Get too big for your britches and it's easy to lose track of what's important and harm your future business prospects. Mistreat people long enough be they workers, dealers or customers and eventually it will catch up with you.
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Excellent statement by Synchro!
In the Gibson case it is particularly sad because they almost went out of business in the early 80s because of the very same reason - lack of care and lack of appreciation for their customers. Memory did not seem to last too long :-( what a shame given all that history that company has in making brilliant, iconic guitars.
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In 1980 I had an animated conversation with Jazz guitarist Mike Elliot. At the time he was working for Gibson and going on and on about their plans. I disagreed with their concept of the brand's future. When the buyout occured I was quite happy that the original brand was being preserved. For a while it went well, Gibson offered quality and value to its customers. They couldn't build them fast enough and the demand flowed naturallynfrom the buyer to the dealer to the manufacturer. At that point they began raising prices, pressuring dealers to take more and more product or risk losing the Gibson line. The direction of flow reversed and the company forgot that the customer always holds the ultimate control. Sadly, the dealers have been caught in the middle of the fiasco and the annual requalification order is a stress-filled event for dealers that have loyally sold Gibson for decades. Originally Posted by FrankLearns
Maybe they will get a clue and turn things around but if not I fear that the outcome will not be happy. It's ironic that the same people that saved the company have fallen into the same trap as their predecessors.
IMHO, YMMV.
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The hard truth is that quality is a management decision. QC isn't the answer to quality - you BUILD quality into the product, you don't INSPECT quality into a product. QC only lets you quantify how important quality is to the company management.
Gibson seems to have some people who take their work seriously and do an excellent job, and some people who don't, and nobody managing either of these people who understands or cares. I strongly agree that Gibson brands should never be ordered blind. They are the essence of "try before you buy."
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Indeed. The best inspection system can't make anything better, it can just try to keep a bad product from getting out the door. Originally Posted by Flint
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Nah. The best bang for the buck is still made in Kalamazoo. It's just not a Gibson. Originally Posted by tucson matt
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Gibson appears to have a contempt for dealers, employees and customers.
It is my observation that their purpose is to elevate the value of the stock, making instruments incidental to the process.
I ahve owned quite a few Gibsons including a 1915 and a 1922 mandolin, a 40's L-50 a 1946 J-45 a mid 50's Em150 a Gibson Heritage and a 2000 WM-45 and a 1925 Mastertone banjo. . I have played many Gibsons.. excellent Gibsons are a rarity and are gems.
This very discussion takes place on acoustic guitar discussion groups with regularity. The observations seem to be the same. Innconsistent, grossly overpriced ,and disagreeable ownership/management.
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I've bought 2 new Gibsons in they last 2 years ... no problems
Gibson leaves more for their dealers to do than maybe they should ... especially when it comes to places like Guitar Center and Musician's Friend
And just because you think a guitar is a dog doesn't mean the next guy who comes along will agree with you
Many people will play 25 Les Pauls to find one they like ...
If I play 25 les Pauls I will have a hard time finding one I don't like ... but that's just me.
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